LEAF 2 : What we know so far (2018 or later?)

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edatokrun:

Thank you for your reply as I think it hits the nail on the head perfectly both for Tesla's abilities as a manufacturer and Nissan's pioneering efforts in bringing affordable EV's to market.

Tesla has the potential to either flame out spectacularly or become a great 21st-century success story. Right now, it is leaning toward the former than the latter. Its cash burn is phenomenal, and its forecasts for production are unrealistic to all but the naive who rely on blogs to get their information. Let's have the conversation about Tesla's abilities this time next year when both the money and excuses will have run out. As a Telsa long-term stockholder, I hope for the best for them, but the industry-based part of me is pessimistic at this time.

As for Nissan, seven years ago with the introduction of the LEAF, Nissan pioneered the modern mass-market EV, and the first generation LEAF has shown to be a well-built reliable car. But despite their best intentions, they found that what was originally thought to be an edge case of traction battery heat degradation turned out to be a flaw in the original traction battery design. Combine that with the start of some of the hottest weather in the US on record, and the head of their US product marketing making durability claims that turned out not to be accurate left a bad taste with some.

Fast forward to today, and we see that Nissan has learned much about making EVs in the last seven years and have addressed the areas for improvement extremely well.

Five years ago the head of Nissan's Product Marketing group got sacked for being a bit too optimistic.

Four years ago they re-engineered their traction battery to provide a much higher level of reliability, beefed up the warranty on that battery to remedy the edge case problems that will crop up and have significantly mitigated the traction battery reliability issues that plagued the early cars.

And for those that chose to buy their early Gen 1 LEAFs, last year Nissan has rolled out a targeted traction battery replacement program that is fair and balanced to help these early owners breathe new life in their cars.

With the reveal of LEAF2 just a few hours away, Nissan will up its game in its EV technology and how they stand behind their product. They are the leaders in mass-market affordable value-driven EVs and have no intention of ceding that crown.

I'm on my way to Las Vegas today, and can hardly wait to see the new car in the flesh tomorrow evening and drive it on Wednesday.

And for those that insist on reliving those teething issues that the early cars had, I say, "Please get over it and move on." You do yourself a great disservice in relitigating what happened many years ago.
 
OrientExpress said:
Fast forward to today, and we see that Nissan has learned much about making EVs in the last seven years and have addressed the areas for improvement extremely well.

Four years ago they re-engineered their traction battery to provide a much higher level of reliability, beefed up the warranty on that battery to remedy the edge case problems that will crop up and have significantly mitigated the traction battery reliability issues that plagued the early cars.
And then there is reality
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606

Now, about your rose colored take on Nissan Corporate:
When the heat related degradation was well established, Nissan issued public denial after public denial
A class-action lawsuit eventually lead to a crappy degradation warranty
For YEARS thereafter Nissan refused financial assistance to owners just days or miles past 5/60k with batteries below 65% capacity of new.
Only in the past year has that corporate policy changed to a case by case decision. Each prospective buyer will have to decide for themselves how much the 'change of heart' is a bit of beefing up their shred reputation in preparation for the the LEAF2 debut.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
TonyWilliams said:
Just to clarify, the statement by OrientExpress is his usual wrong information, correct?

Tesla has not said anything about "Jan 2018 customer" deliveries, and there's no link to another forum with such a quote, correct?

My bet? Nissan will beat Tesla to market (I mean the real market) with a yet to be announced product. ;)

CUV? Level 5 Auto? Something to complete with Roadster 2.0? Inquiring minds want to know...
 
SageBrush said:
OrientExpress said:
Fast forward to today, and we see that Nissan has learned much about making EVs in the last seven years and have addressed the areas for improvement extremely well.

Four years ago they re-engineered their traction battery to provide a much higher level of reliability, beefed up the warranty on that battery to remedy the edge case problems that will crop up and have significantly mitigated the traction battery reliability issues that plagued the early cars.
And then there is reality
http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606

Another technical misstep. first off the line new pack, new config, etc. But the warranty will cover him and cover him well. Unfortunate? Yes. Unusual? No... not by a long shot. Manufacturers make mistakes all the time. They discover it, fix it, move on. The reality is the capacity warranty means the fix is already in place.

Already speculated that early 30 kwh packs were well... probably not as planned but also speculated that the issue seems to be resolved. This guy is in Florida so blame it on the hot weather? Well how does that work for the guy in OR having the same issues with his early 30 kwh LEAF?

But then again we have other 30 kwh LEAFs in hot weather with later builds doing fine at twice the miles. Go back to the 24 kwh packs. We have people in AZ who had the 2011 and a 2015 LEAF and they claim a much better battery exists. Maybe its too early to make claims but some 2015's are in their 3rd Summer. Only took one Summer for the 2011's but I guess we shall see.

In closing; I can't remember a car company stepping up like Nissan has in addressing out of warranty battery issues. Its unprecedented in scope but I have to admit; until EVs and hybrids came along, I didn't follow car companies or cars.

In closing; The comment about manufacturers constantly making mistakes? Having relatives in the car business, I hear SHOCKING stories of willful neglect from several manufacturers, two in particular. They put out a product they know is defective but literally hoping for the best... Its all about getting return for that advertising buck! Its amazing to me our level of complacency with gassers in light of our over the top indignation over everything electric.
 
jhm614 said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
TonyWilliams said:
Just to clarify, the statement by OrientExpress is his usual wrong information, correct?

Tesla has not said anything about "Jan 2018 customer" deliveries, and there's no link to another forum with such a quote, correct?

My bet? Nissan will beat Tesla to market (I mean the real market) with a yet to be announced product. ;)

CUV? Level 5 Auto? Something to complete with Roadster 2.0? Inquiring minds want to know...

Nothing exotic like that. The patterns are pretty clear. Tesla announces product far in advance of availability while Nissan does not. No predictions on nationwide availability for the 2018 but I expect key markets to see 2018's on the lot BEFORE HALLOWEEN... well before.
 
SageBrush said:
Now, about your rose colored take on Nissan Corporate:
When the heat related degradation was well established, Nissan issued public denial after public denial
A class-action lawsuit eventually lead to a crappy degradation warranty
For YEARS thereafter Nissan refused financial assistance to owners just days or miles past 5/60k with batteries below 65% capacity of new.
Only in the past year has that corporate policy changed to a case by case decision. Each prospective buyer will have to decide for themselves how much the 'change of heart' is a bit of beefing up their shred reputation in preparation for the the LEAF2 debut.

SageBrush, I bet you still hold a grudge about the South losing the War of Northern Aggression. Bless your heart! :D
 
SageBrush said:
Easy for me, I didn't spend $30k on a Gen1 LEAF that makes those promises look like a joke.
But why wouldn't a smart shopper remember than Nissan lied to and screwed generations of owners ?
Despite all advice to the contrary some people bought their Leafs. They weren't being smart - but emotional. Most of us leased.
 
evnow said:
SageBrush said:
Easy for me, I didn't spend $30k on a Gen1 LEAF that makes those promises look like a joke.
But why wouldn't a smart shopper remember than Nissan lied to and screwed generations of owners ?
Despite all advice to the contrary some people bought their Leafs. They weren't being smart - but emotional. Most of us leased.
I'm leery of ascribing emotions to an entire group when a simple explanation exists: they believed Nissan
 
SageBrush said:
I'm leery of ascribing emotions to an entire group when a simple explanation exists: they believed Nissan

Or they don't understand the risk in buying into a new 1st generation technology is a shared responsibility and that there will always be teething issues that may take time to solve.
 
OrientExpress said:
SageBrush said:
I'm leery of ascribing emotions to an entire group when a simple explanation exists: they believed Nissan

Or they don't understand the risk in buying into a new 1st generation technology is a shared responsibility and that there will always be teething issues that may take time to solve.

not only first generation tech but a transpo option that ONLY filled a niche. Some of us can do that but most of us cannot. I leased because I could....to a degree. But my transportation need changed since April 2010. Changed a lot.
 
SageBrush said:
I'm leery of ascribing emotions to an entire group when a simple explanation exists: they believed Nissan
I'm not. You can go back and read the thousands of posts on this subject in 2010/11.

The funny thing is they didn't believe Nissan ! They thought if you leased, Nissan could take away the cars like GM did with EV1.
 
evnow said:
SageBrush said:
I'm leery of ascribing emotions to an entire group when a simple explanation exists: they believed Nissan
I'm not. You can go back and read the thousands of posts on this subject in 2010/11.

The funny thing is they didn't believe Nissan ! They thought if you leased, Nissan could take away the cars like GM did with EV1.
The two are different.

People thought Nissan might change corporate strategy and stop supporting the LEAF.
You can be sure they bought the car thinking the battery would last more than a couple of years and they had Nissan telling them the battery would retain 70-80% capacity in 10 years.

People can sugar coat all they want, Nissan is a corporate liar and their follow-up act was to obstruct and then stone-wall ... all the way up to the last 12 months or so. And now we have the 30 kWh generation which so far is just as crappy as Nissan battery technology (perhaps worse) was five years ago. And it is compounded by some evidence that Nissan has changed the battery bar thresholds to devalue their warranty.

Get the car if you like; buy it for all I care. But for heaven's sake do not obfuscate or try to hide the truth. You would just be helping Nissan screw yet another generation of customers. As an EV advocate it only makes sense to hold Nissan to a reasonable standard of battery quality and corporate ethic. Currently Nissan gives EVs a horrible name.
 
evnow, DaveinOlyWA, OrientExpress, SageBrush:

Not only are all your recent comments off-topic, you are bickering over long-term battery degradation of Gen one LEAFs, which it appears none of you (not having owned and driven a single LEAF since the introduction) are really informed to discuss, based on your own experience.
SageBrush said:
...Nissan gives EVs a horrible name.
I suppose that's why the Gen one LEAF is the worlds best-selling BEV...?

Back on-topic.

I expect the Gen two LEAF to be the world's best-selling BEV, in 2018.
 
Sage - Why don't you just go away. Go back to Tesla Motors Club and cheerlead with the rest of the cult. We're tired of hearing your negativity. Get lost.
 
edatoakrun said:
evnow, DaveinOlyWA, OrientExpress, SageBrush:

Not only are all your recent comments off-topic, you are bickering over long-term battery degradation of Gen one LEAFs, which it appears none of you (not having owned and driven a single LEAF since the introduction) are really informed to discuss, based on your own experience.
SageBrush said:
...Nissan gives EVs a horrible name.
I suppose that's why the Gen one LEAF is the worlds best-selling BEV...?

Back on-topic.

I expect the Gen two LEAF to be the world's best-selling BEV, in 2018.

Non of that disproves how dishonest Nissan is, anyone that has followed the LEAF closely knows they lied and covered up everything. Nissan is pretty bad. Best selling is mitigated by many factors and is more a result of first to market and the delay of the issues surfacing. Don't expect Nissan to keep holding this title. Nissan in many ways did give EVs a bad name, intentional or not they handled it like a true corporation, save ass at the customer's expense. I'll reserve my judgement when I see the new LEAF in person this month.
 
SageBrush said:
evnow said:
SageBrush said:
I'm leery of ascribing emotions to an entire group when a simple explanation exists: they believed Nissan
I'm not. You can go back and read the thousands of posts on this subject in 2010/11.

The funny thing is they didn't believe Nissan ! They thought if you leased, Nissan could take away the cars like GM did with EV1.
The two are different.

People thought Nissan might change corporate strategy and stop supporting the LEAF.
You can be sure they bought the car thinking the battery would last more than a couple of years and they had Nissan telling them the battery would retain 70-80% capacity in 10 years.

People can sugar coat all they want, Nissan is a corporate liar and their follow-up act was to obstruct and then stone-wall ... all the way up to the last 12 months or so. And now we have the 30 kWh generation which so far is just as crappy as Nissan battery technology (perhaps worse) was five years ago. And it is compounded by some evidence that Nissan has changed the battery bar thresholds to devalue their warranty.

Get the car if you like; buy it for all I care. But for heaven's sake do not obfuscate or try to hide the truth. You would just be helping Nissan screw yet another generation of customers. As an EV advocate it only makes sense to hold Nissan to a reasonable standard of battery quality and corporate ethic. Currently Nissan gives EVs a horrible name.

Really surprised you bought a used Leaf, especially after joining this forum and doing "due diligence" prior to your
purchase, e.g. even utilizing LeafSpy. Implicit in your posts is that you view your Leaf, i.e. > 3yrs old, purchased
for less than $8K, with near new battery capacity (59 - 61 Ahrs), and no necessary repairs, as a marginal purchase.
Sorry for your naivety and misfortune.

Hopefully, when your Model 3 arrives, you'll donate your Leaf and not feel that you 'scammed' the buyer as you feel
that Nissan 'scammed' early BEV adopters. Besides, when you have to order a $50K+ Model 3 to receive delivery prior
to 2020, a few $K from a '13 Leaf sale hardly offsets that, right?
 
edatoakrun said:
evnow, DaveinOlyWA, OrientExpress, SageBrush:

Not only are all your recent comments off-topic, you are bickering over long-term battery degradation of Gen one LEAFs, which it appears none of you (not having owned and driven a single LEAF since the introduction) are really informed to discuss, based on your own experience.
SageBrush said:
...Nissan gives EVs a horrible name.
I suppose that's why the Gen one LEAF is the worlds best-selling BEV...?

Back on-topic.

I expect the Gen two LEAF to be the world's best-selling BEV, in 2018.

I can't speak for the others, but I am one of the first 2011 LEAF users, am on my second LEAF now, and expect to be on my third one by the end of the year. My only sin is that I did my due diligence regarding the risks of a new product and technology and chose to lease vs. buy. I also believe that the Nissan-Renault-Mitsubishi Alliance will continue to be the largest producers of EVs in the world.

Like you I find the continued whining about things that happened years ago juvenile and counter productive and I wish those that continue to harp on it would either stop or leave.
 
edatoakrun said:
evnow, DaveinOlyWA, OrientExpress, SageBrush:

Not only are all your recent comments off-topic, you are bickering over long-term battery degradation of Gen one LEAFs, which it appears none of you (not having owned and driven a single LEAF since the introduction) are really informed to discuss, based on your own experience.
SageBrush said:
...Nissan gives EVs a horrible name.
I suppose that's why the Gen one LEAF is the worlds best-selling BEV...?

Back on-topic.

I expect the Gen two LEAF to be the world's best-selling BEV, in 2018.

LOL!!! OMG... where have u been? FYI; my LEAF # was waaaaaaaay below yours!
 
The apparent rapid capacity loss that some folks are seeing with the 30kwh packs makes the complaints about gen 1 pack losses a little too relevant for comfort. People thinking about getting a 2018 Leaf who will need most or all of its rated range need to be warned that it may be a poor gamble...
 
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