Leaf Gen 2 - New Nissan LEAF World Premier on Sep 5, 5:30 PM PDT

evnow said:

phr00t said:

Nissan states it will be 150 mile range:

http://nissannews.com/en-US/nissan/usa/releases/2018-nissan-leaf-makes-north-american-debut

63% of the range of a Bolt.

A Bolt starts @ $37500. Multiply that be 63%, and the Leaf should be starting at $23625 if it wanted to match range per dollar. It doesn't have to match it, because it is in a lower price point... but that isn't "simply amazing"

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You should read about why every marginal mile of range has decreasing utility.

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Tell that to my 90 mile work commute, my winter driving, or my 260 mile trips to my other home 1-2 times a month.

If 'other home' sounds too marginal, replace it with 'family.'

Lol, can we have the word "meh" excised from the English language? :lol:

Some nice improvements, with further range enhancements in a short pipeline. Nearly double the range of the LEAFs I've had, with more on the way. I won't be in the market until next year so gives me time to ponder.

I'm not a proponent of autonomous driving, so I'm not particularly concerned about the particulars of whatever-they-call-it, but if it can compensate for any "whoopsies" regarding pedestrians playing the fool in parking lots, I'm down with it. As far as parking-assist, I know how to park. Not sure about e-pedal; might be really cool but I'll have to try it.

No compelling reason to go beyond 6.6kW for level 2 charging. And some good reasons not to. IMO, of course

A distinct lack of light-colored interiors in the demo; hope some option is available. I hate dark interiors. "Vibrant blue stitching" notwithstanding. (EDIT: looks like light-gray leather available for SL. Too bad you have to go fully loaded to get light-color interior. No light-color cloth option.)

The steering wheel has a flat spot on the bottom? I don't care for that at all. Bad human interface design.

Need some better views of the dash.

The car seems to be designed for me, barring something Stupid like bad seats. I'm not bowled over either, but if the leases are affordable, I'm probably in. As for styling, the Bolt looks to me like it was slapped in the face by a truck wearing a class ring, leaving a bow-tie-shaped scar. The Leaf at least looks a bit like a Volvo P1800ES Sportwagon from the nose back. The nose itself is tolerable, if uninspired.

Wow, a lot of negativity based largely on it not meeting the range specs a lot of you wanted on its first step out of the gate. Sounds like more is coming, but that will be a bit delayed.

Looking at the pics and stats I see thus far, it will work quite well for me. Heck we've been very happy with our 2013 Leaf and the styling is much better than Gen1 in my opinion. I had to turn it over to my wife when I changed jobs and the range wasn't adequate for my 63 - 85 mile commute. But the 40kwh battery will work for me, even after allowing for degradation and 80% charging to maximize battery life. After federal, state and county incentives, I'm looking at $24k for the SL. I test drove the Bolt and was very disappointed. And this is going to be quite a bit less than the Tesla M3 which is the only other pure BEV that would work without getting excessive on price.

Pros:
- kept value proposition ($37k fully loaded - much less after incentives)
- increased range by 33%+/-
- improved styling
- added Apple integration
- added key enhanced safety features
- added lighter color leather as an option
- (not confirmed) sounds like they improved the handling - they stated improved stability
- (maybe good) added the one pedal driving concept (won't know until I test it if this is an improvement, but sounds like it is)
- initial after incentive purchase price and TCO will trounce any gas powered car that is anywhere comparable to this car

Cons:
- they didn't increase the battery capacity to xx and range to yy while cutting price in half. qq
- no TMS for the battery - though I've seen lots of posts here indicating that isn't an all encompassing win for smaller battery packs
- the incentives mean an instant $10k - $12k depreciation as soon as you drive it off the lot - but that is true of any BEV.

In conclusion, I'm very interested in making this my 2nd BEV in the family. Won't know for certain until I can actually see and test drive one. But from what I've seen thus far, this looks very promising.

Looks different (and to most buyers, probably better) than the Gen one, while using the same platform to reduce development costs.

Looks to me like Nissan has plans to do one thing radically different than it's BEV competitors.

Make a profit...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubodx5uAxtI

phr00t said:

...I also chuckled a bit when they said no critical battery problems throughout their history... although I guess a class action lawsuit on degradation might not be considered "critical".

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I took it to mean no thermal runaway incidents. Nissan has had a splendid record in that regard and deserve to toot their own horn.

I forgot a con:
- they didn't increase the charge rate - it still has the same old 6.6 and the ChaDemo.

But I don't see that as a failure to future proof. Given how long it took for the current infrastructure to deploy and I haven't seen any plans outside of Tesla's SC stations for much better, I doubt there will be any meaningful improvement in high speed charging infrastructure during the life of the car, even if they take another 6 years before they come out with Gen 3. The one potential caveat is if the SAE approach wins and the ChaDeMo infrastructure disappears.

Also forgot a pro:
- better acceleration

But I consider the Gen 1 to perform adequately in that area. More acceleration can be nice when needed though.

I'm starting to come around to liking the autonomous safety enhancements. Do I 'need' it? No. But when I see all the distracted driving these days, especially by the kids who have too little driving experience, I'm getting on board with it. If it actually prevents accidents and injuries, I think it is a good idea.

Build page:

https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/2018-leaf/configure/

Option only $650 on the SL?

Automatic Emergency Braking with Pedestrian Detection [*]
Intelligent Lane Intervention [*]
ProPILOT™ Assist [*]

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In the same way that a 30 kWh LEAF is functionally no less than a 24 kWh model through the warranty period, this car (presuming Nissan does not play tricks and retains the 65% degradation threshold for battery replacement) will be no less than a 30 kWh battery through the warranty period.

ok .... I guess, for an urban commuter. How many people want to pay $30k for the base version before tax credits ?

Seeing that I just purchased my 12 bar 2013 SL this year, my interests on this release is only for a possible used purchase 3-4 years from now when my usable range may not be convenient anymore. Interested to see how these are priced coming off lease in the future.

I love my current leaf and like the new model to be honest. Hopefully the damn rear view mirror is not as much of an obstruction as mine is now.

$36,850, fully loaded.

About the same price as the as-yet-unseen Tesla model 3 stripper.

https://www.nissanusa.com/electric-cars/2018-leaf/configure/summary

No, I want Tan leather!

Still a few bugs in the site, apparently...

That isn't actually fully loaded - the dealers will have various mats and protectors (I may actually get the nose guard, as my car's nose is all chipped and scratched) and covers. When I priced one from the leak, the minor accessories were listed, and because the Tech Package was only $900 (oops!) it priced out to the above fully loaded. Still, if I pay for the cargo cover and nose protector out of household funds, it won't be a bad deal. I'll probably also get the $400 Red paint, although if the Blue is free I might consider it, if it looks non-toy-like in natural light.

alozzy said:

Can't really get excited about this new Leaf. It looks nicer, but it's essentially the same car with a bigger battery pack. It's going to compete on price only with other EVs, which I think is a real problem for Nissan. It won't take long for other manufacturers to match the range of the new Leaf and, despite the mention of Tesla in the presentation, this car is NOT an M3 or Bolt killer.

Too little, too late from Nissan - I was hoping for better, given the fact that they were first to market with a production EV that could function as a family car.

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It's pretty boring and the interior looks the same. Nissan is trying to make one car please the Japanese and US markets and you get blah. Just like the first LEAF they say everything is amazing, perhaps for Japan. What's amazing is that after all these years the refresh is nothing exciting. At least they can discount the heck out of them. I think they Bolt is even nicer looking,

hackdroot said:

Seeing that I just purchased my 12 bar 2013 SL this year, my interests on this release is only for a possible used purchase 3-4 years from now when my usable range may not be convenient anymore. Interested to see how these are priced coming off lease in the future.

I love my current leaf and like the new model to be honest. Hopefully the damn rear view mirror is not as much of an obstruction as mine is now.

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When I bought my 2013 new, the dealers were trying to sell used for new price less the federal and state incentives - so basically no savings unless you couldn't use the tax credit. But by 2016, there were plenty of used available at steep discounts. Also in 2013, none were off lease yet. So my guess would be that in 2021/2022, there will be some screaming deals available as these start to come off lease. If the range of a 3-4 year old model works for you, that is an incredible value proposition. And it will probably repeat 3-4 years from now with Gen 2. But prior to 2020, I doubt going used for the Gen 2 will snag much of a deal.

@DarthPuppy - absolutely agree, I'm really looking forward to buying a heavily depreciated 2018 Leaf or Bolt in 2021/2022 too! For the next few years, my 2013 SV should keep me happy enough.

If I was looking to buy a new EV, I don't think I would get in line for a Tesla M3 as delivery to Canadians likely won't happen until 2019 at the earliest. By that time, the 2019 Leaf SL will have a 60 kWh pack option and will be much more competitive with the M3, yet at a lower price point while better equipped.

If I had to choose between the current Bolt and a 2018 Leaf, I think I'd choose the Bolt, despite its shortcomings RE seats and cargo capacity, as the range sure would be nice to have. Doesn't hurt that it would be more fun to drive with all that torque!

Having said all that, the 2018 Leaf pricing is very competitive, so I hope Nissan sells lots of 2018 Leafs in the US as that will mean more used inventory in a few years

150 miles range, lol, that's worse than I think anybody here had estimated.

The price is good, though the car looks less impressive the more I look at it. Just another hatchback. The S-grade wheels are awful, so you'd need SV, and then you need tech (propilot) and heater package, so you're up to 35-36k (though still full federal credit puts you sub 30's).

And of course this won't be rolling out to customers until the model 3 is.

And where do I fast charge this thing anyway? Nissan isn't rolling out a network compatible with this anyway.

The car is not awful, but it's very banal. Propilot is the only thing about this at all interesting. I would still consider leasing one if I could get it for low 200's like I did my last leaf, but if I had to pay the amount a car this much should really cost, I'd rather just wait for that model 3 I have reserved.

Here's the really ugly math on this thing. Its top tier is $37,500. Compare that to a 220 mile range model 3 with the premium package, which costs $40k. The tesla gives you 50% more range, a nationwide fast-charging network growing aggressively, a much better looking car, a much faster car. The leaf does not have EAP, though, whereas the leaf would have propilot. Oh, but propilot doesn't work on the interstate anyway (62 mph limit). So who at that point is going to take the leaf when another $3k puts them into a prettier, faster, better ranged Tesla, which also has fast charge points littered throughout the country?

I see the S as a better car than the SL for the market. If you must have an EV and don't care about any features, then here is one you can have for under $25k after credits. But the topped out one is now in direct competition with the model 3 and it can't hold a candle to it, frankly.

As the post above mine points out, the resale on these will be extravagant [ly low], as it has been with the current ones. With Nissan's stubborn lack of proper thermal management, and only a 150 mile range new, three years from now these things will be on the market for $11-12k. That might be a good time to get one as a commuter car.

I also was underwhelmed, although I was not disappointed. I had low expectations, and Nissan met them all.

I see the 2018 Leaf as a great car for certain markets in the world, especially Japan. The country is small, and littered with CHAdeMO chargers. This is a good fit. Probably for some smaller European countries as well.

I do not see this as a good fit in the US for more than a comfortable commuter. That's where the 2019 Leaf comes in. If I understand correctly, they play to introduce it in the second half of FY18, which runs from Apr 2018 - Mar 2019. So the second half is actually Oct 2018. A full year from now.

My biggest concern is that the Leaf I really want (60kWh battery / 100kW QC) will arrive in the US just as the federal tax credit is expiring. Which means it will be $7500 more expensive. That alone is strongly pushing me towards a Bolt.

The 62mph limit on ProPilot makes it useless for highway travel in the US. However as others have said, the Leaf works great in Japan or European countries. The Leaf will continue to be cheap due to discounting in the US alongside the tax credits, which should last through the end of 2018 for Nissan.

EatsShootsandLeafs said:

As the post above mine points out, the resale on these will be extravagant, as it has been with the current ones. With Nissan's stubborn lack of proper thermal management, and only a 150 mile range new, three years from now these things will be on the market for $11-12k. That might be a good time to get one as a commuter car.

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I agree; or wait a year for eye-popping lease deals if you live in a CARB state.
The thing is, I just don't think NIssan is going to make many more than they have to for CARB compliance; not at the prices these cars are going to command in the US market anyway.