Why the Gas Station (is, and) Isn’t a Model for Electric Cars

DaveinOlyWA said:

First off, we need to dispel the myth that larger pack sizes will be the death of smaller pack sizes. That is as far from reality as you can get. What we have now is the perception that EVs are exclusive and overpriced. That is not what manufacturers want despite their actions. Soon they will get that. Batteries will be cheaper, but they will never be cheap in a car.

The future will see EVs covering every segment of transportation need instead of the "I have the money so I will pay for more range" crowd that is, btw, a limited market. What needs to happen is EVs in every price segment which means econobox 100 mile EVs for under $20,000 along with your $50,000 Tesla.

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EVs that cost anywhere near $20k, have limited functionality compared to an ICE, and degrade so fast you can watch the Ahr fall by the month are the epitome of a niche market.

"My" $50k Tesla has a host of bells and whistles. A very nicely equipped Model 3 is $35k. Please stop the Tesla trolling since I know you don't like similar BS that states that a LEAF costs $35k

LeftieBiker said:

I'm not sure you understand how much even L-2 stations cost to install at a commercial location.

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If you omit the EVSE and have a 240vac 30amp plug near the air compressor your cost is $200-$500 over the price of having a 220vac air compressor by its lonesome. (Could be even less if internal resources do the install during the planning stage of the building )

I think the key to low cost is the EV driver should bear the burden of carrying the portable charger, the station owner or storeowner should just provide an outlet.

The mistake is thinking you need an EVSE to provide charging. Acceptance is higher if it's just an outlet at an out of the way stall

rmay635703 said:

LeftieBiker said:

I'm not sure you understand how much even L-2 stations cost to install at a commercial location.

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If you omit the EVSE and have a 240vac 30amp plug near the air compressor your cost is $200-$500 over the price of having a 220vac air compressor by its lonesome. (Could be even less if internal resources do the install during the planning stage of the building )

I think the key to low cost is the EV driver should bear the burden of carrying the portable charger, the station owner or storeowner should just provide an outlet.

The mistake is thinking you need an EVSE to provide charging. Acceptance is higher if it's just an outlet at an out of the way stall

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I'm afraid the law makers wouldn't be happy with that. And businesses are afraid of liability problems. Offering a NEMA 15-50 outlet for public use could be asking for problems. So that puts us back at the thousands of dollars per installation cost for each J1772 charging station.

"SageBrush"]EVs that cost anywhere near $20k, have limited functionality compared to an ICE, and degrade so fast you can watch the Ahr fall by the month are the epitome of a niche market.

"My" $50k Tesla has a host of bells and whistles. A very nicely equipped Model 3 is $35k. Please stop the BS.

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I can see where short range EV's can still be competitive. The Mitsubishi Mirage has had at times a MSRP of less than $10,000 (like the 2015 models in early 2016). Yet the cheapest EV is more than twice that. I almost went and bought a brand new Mirage. At less than $10,000, it cost about the same price as my used 2013 Leaf. And at nearly 50mpg the cost effectiveness almost convinced me. But I'm glad I got my Leaf instead. After I bought my Leaf one lady, a grandma who only drives around town within a radius of about 5 miles, also followed my example and went and bought herself a Leaf for about $6,000. Now I've found several more people wanting to buy cheap used Leafs as second vehicles, and only two people that wanted a Bolt "just so they could go far in an electric car." And I've explained to them that the battery will degrade and that it's range will be less and less. Yet they are still interested in them. One guy even wants to buy a used 2013 Leaf and import it to Belize after I let him test drive my Leaf. I get comments like, "Ya, but I only need a car for getting to and from work," "I only drive 30 miles per or less per day" and "But electricity is about 1/3 the price of gasoline." As said many a times, the EV is a great second vehicle, one that will fill most people's daily needs.

If the public's only choice is a $35,000 or more electric car that still has a limited range vs. a $10,000 electric car that will work fine for around town then I don't see mass adoption of EV's anytime soon. Yes, it would be nice for EV's to be able to do everything an ICEV can do. But if it's at a higher price people aren't going to fall for it.

But when you bring up the subject of charging stations you're now talking about taking the EV beyond the average daily driver need of 30 miles. Obviously a 75mile and degrading range vehicle isn't that practical for such long trips. So it seems the two go hand in hand for someone thinking about one or the other. IMO, if the future of the EV is to model it's range after the ICEV, then likely the charging infrastructure will end up being modeled after the gasoline station too.

SageBrush said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

First off, we need to dispel the myth that larger pack sizes will be the death of smaller pack sizes. That is as far from reality as you can get. What we have now is the perception that EVs are exclusive and overpriced. That is not what manufacturers want despite their actions. Soon they will get that. Batteries will be cheaper, but they will never be cheap in a car.

The future will see EVs covering every segment of transportation need instead of the "I have the money so I will pay for more range" crowd that is, btw, a limited market. What needs to happen is EVs in every price segment which means econobox 100 mile EVs for under $20,000 along with your $50,000 Tesla.

Click to expand...

EVs that cost anywhere near $20k, have limited functionality compared to an ICE, and degrade so fast you can watch the Ahr fall by the month are the epitome of a niche market.

"My" $50k Tesla has a host of bells and whistles. A very nicely equipped Model 3 is $35k. Please stop the Tesla trolling since I know you don't like similar BS that states that a LEAF costs $35k

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I don't care how good your $50k Tesla is. I guarantee that you will not own it more than 5-6 years because you will not be able to get (or afford) parts for it... Also, THERE IS NO TESLA 3. I seriously wonder if there ever will be one. Tesla smells like a fire only making smoke and no flames. Even if they make a 3 someday, you will not be able to get one, because I am sure that supply will be low, and the price will be high... So IMO Tesla is out of the picture as a mainstream product...

You can say whatever you like that the Leaf degrades, but this topic is that we need more FREE charging stations everywhere for the electric car to be taken seriously and made a mainstream product. Charging stations are not only for people that are traveling long distance, but for people to buy an EV with the luxury of being able to charge on the fly everywhere they go during their daily routine, and also be a visible member of the cool EV crowd.. I still love plugging into the FREE chargepoint charging stations after 3 years of doing it!!! That way, people will take the chance to buy an EV.

PS - I know that someone will say that you can't get charging for free. That is incorrect. And if someone really pushes, I will write why..

powersurge said:

I don't care how good your $50k Tesla is. I guarantee that you will not own it more than 5-6 years because you will not be able to get (or afford) parts for it... Also, THERE IS NO TESLA 3. I seriously wonder if there ever will be one. Tesla smells like a fire only making smoke and no flames. Even if they make a 3 someday, you will not be able to get one, because I am sure that supply will be low, and the price will be high... So IMO Tesla is out of the picture as a mainstream product....

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Guarantee, huh ?

OK, then, how about a wager ?
$2,500 Wager placed with a 3rd party. You win if any of following occurs:
1. I don't take delivery in 2018
2. I don't own the car in 2024 unrelated to an accident

If you have not won the bet by 2025 your money is mine. $2,500 is the least amount I will bother with; a larger bet is fine.

This topic is an attempt by OP to promote an L2 public infra-structure to support 50 mile range LEAFs.
You may not have noticed but that paradigm is a failure in the US market. And urban public free L2 charging is a horrible idea. All society gets for its money is poorly maintained EVSEs and a couple jerks that monopolize the spot to avoid paying for parking.

However, perhaps unlike you, my 9.6 kW home EVSE is on plug-share and offered for free. Care to guess how many EVs live within a 40 mile mile radius of me ? Or guess how many times people have come by to charge ? I'll give you a hint about the last question: all the cars have been Tesla.

At ~ one minute into the video, the charge-where-you-pee model from my first post, validated...

...in the future, vehicles will simply charge their batteries where the passengers stop to pee...

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3D4jyf6K108

...a little tedious...

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That phrase understates the limitations from anything less than ~50 kW DC sites, when traveling.

Oh...and speaking of pissing (contests) please don't waste your time, and space on our threads, responding to SageBrush's voluminous off-topic-stream.

RegGuheert said:

It seems to me that most municipalities would benefit by installing combined parking meters/L2 EVSEs to replace existing parking meters. Such devices could greatly increase the revenues collected at parking spaces in the town while providing a valuable service to BEV drivers. They could install a few to start and then replace more and more of their old meters as time goes on.

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It could also be used to promote EV ownership by say, offering automatic 1 hour free parking the moment you plug in. The car doesn't have to be charging, just the pilot signal recognizing that it's connected to an EV. You can then add money for additional parking/longer charging as desired.

Even L1 could be useful.

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That I don't necessarily agree with for retail. An hour's worth of L1 only gets you a few miles' range. Where it is useful is workplace charging, where you can leave your car plugged in for 8-12 hours a day and get a useful amount of charge. L1 also means more cars can plug in for a given electrical capacity.

L1 is good for long term airport parking.

smkettner said:

L1 is good for long term airport parking.

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Or for when there's nothing else and you're a fanatic that has to take his EV.

Like I did when I did my 700 mile trip. I charged all night at two different campsites off of 120V 15A outlets.

IssacZachary said:

I'm afraid the law makers wouldn't be happy with that. And businesses are afraid of liability problems. Offering a NEMA 15-50 outlet for public use could be asking for problems. So that puts us back at the thousands of dollars per installation cost for each J1772 charging too.

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I guess every camp ground is illegal

rmay635703 said:

IssacZachary said:

I'm afraid the law makers wouldn't be happy with that. And businesses are afraid of liability problems. Offering a NEMA 15-50 outlet for public use could be asking for problems. So that puts us back at the thousands of dollars per installation cost for each J1772 charging too.

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I guess every camp ground is illegal

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The article 625 of the NEC clearly states that it is mandatory that 240V EVSE's be hardwired and not portable with a plug (which does not apply to RV's). But apparently other regulations, even in the same article ( 625.18, 625.19, 625.29) state if the EVSE is “…part of a system identified and listed as suitable for the purpose, achieving the requirements of NEC 625.18, 625.19, 625.29 shall be permitted to be cord-and-plug connected.” So there you have a loophole. Well, sort of. If I'm reading this correctly an EVSE with a voltage over 125V must also be permanently mounted, be it plugged in or hardwired too.

https://www.nyserda.ny.gov/-/media/Files/Programs/ChargeNY/EVSE-Overview-NEC-Article-625.pdf
http://communities.leviton.com/serv... EVSE Compliance with NEC by Ken Brown[1].pdf

But then you have to add in local zoning laws, as well as each company's own policy and perspective, as well as the question of how long the loophole will last. Yes, looking at it from our perspective would be "yes, there's no problem in letting us use your NEMA 14-50." But looking at this from a company's perspective, they will be concerned with several things that to us may not even be a problem. One thing that is obvious is that they won't be able to check if each and every EVSE being used is UL listed and NEC compliant.

RV parks and campsites wouldn't be in the same situation. Yes, to us it's the same thing. But to the NEC, Wal-Mart and Joe's Deli it's not the same thing.

So as stupid as it sounds I would be fully legal using a 125vac nema 5-50 powered portable EVSE (which is allowed by code)
And then need a onboard charger to support 40 amps of 125vac and I'm fine.

That is beyond stupid but I'm surprised no one has modeled their systems around the 125 volt is good for portable use no matter what model.

There are 30 amp and 50 amp flavors of both voltages around work at the fence line but I've never had a reason to use L2.

Ah well

Well, there's no reason not to try. For an example:

https://rockies.craigslist.org/com/d/want-to-offer-electric/6294048985.html