Battery temp management for new leaf

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Could not agree more! The Leaf is an affordable electric econobox - it does not compete in the same space as the Tesla Model 3 which will go for probably $50,000 after adding in desired options. After 3 1/2 years in CT, zero maintenance, battery at 12 bars, range as a local car was about 75 miles at 80% charge. The only reason I sold it was because I could get $20,500 in rebates to buy a 2017 S.
 
joeriv said:
Could not agree more! The Leaf is an affordable electric econobox - it does not compete in the same space as the Tesla Model 3 which will go for probably $50,000 after adding in desired options. After 3 1/2 years in CT, zero maintenance, battery at 12 bars, range as a local car was about 75 miles at 80% charge. The only reason I sold it was because I could get $20,500 in rebates to buy a 2017 S.
Click to expand...

I don't consider the LEAF an econobox even as it sits now and no passengers that I know of do either and due to work, I have had probably several degrees more passengers than most excepting Uber Drivers.

At the same time, I would not consider the LEAF upscale. But there is a significant difference in feel and ambiance when in a cheaper car. that is unmistakeable
 
Some mostly well thought out debate here. I just pre-ordered a 2018 with little reservation as to the durability of the battery, and here's why.

First, the Leaf is not a Tesla or a Bolt. They aren't the same price, so comparing isn't terribly fair. If I did compare and hold it against Nissan, or others that don't have liquid cooling, I simply wouldn't have entered the EV market as it would have been wildly outside of our budget.

Second, degradation of the battery happens in all batteries. Sure, a Tesla will lose less over time, but its also a 100 Kwh battery compared to Nissan's current 30 Kwh. From what I understand, the density of the two batteries is very different, albeit similar chemistry, and thus, not a fair comparison. Unless there is third party, impartial data being provided from manufacturers, all we really have are personal accounts, which is something, but frankly not entirely trustworthy.

Finally, the warranty from Nissan, and many others, is 8 years against capacity loss up to %30 (not the overall loss, but the 8 years is). I understand some are very cynical when it comes to these things, but I've read the document and its pretty straight forward and clear. I'm confident that even at its worse loss of 30% after eight years, I'll still be rolling on average close to 170 kms on a charge...not that bad.

I suppose thermal management is nice, but so would have been the budget to pay for it ;).

All submitted respectfully.
 
Deltaflyer21 said:
Some mostly well thought out debate here. I just pre-ordered a 2018 with little reservation as to the durability of the battery, and here's why.
Click to expand...

Count me as one that agrees with everything you just stated. However, my 35,000 miler that still has 12 bars and a 90% SOH, does not appear to be on a fast track to decline enough for the commute to work. i am guessing it will give me 100,000+ miles before it cannot make the 26 mile one way trek, and at that point I will just replace the battery. Truthfully, it will become an issue when it is at 60 miles at 100% charge. Anyway, I am one of those that bought this car for one single reason: drive to and from work.

The 200+ range on these cars do not appeal to me, because it is not the most comfortable car to drive long distances. If I wanted to drive that far I would buy a Tesla, but I would much prefer to fly than to drive and "supercharge". Especially when I will be paying $700+ per month just to say I am driving a Tesla and I am special.
 
edatoakrun said:
lorenfb said:
...once you introduce a battery cooling system,
the battery then needs to be insulated from the vehicle's chassis, which then reduces the chassis' effect as a heat sink
necessitating on-going cooling - more power consumption....
Click to expand...
Is insulation of ATM EV battery packs is largely mythical?

Does any BEV manufacturer actually insulate their BEV packs, after the disastrous results shown by the early (insulated pack?) Ford focus E's in AVTA testing?

Seems like insulation is far more of a problem than a solution, except For BEVs cold climates where heat loss is a major concern.

For pack cooling, the cost (in energy consumption, reduced range, reduced battery life?) from the increased energy use/battery cycling required to cool an insulated pack, will be likely tend to exceed the cost of damage (in battery life) from the heat gain from ambient sources in an un-insulated pack.

Now, when some bright engineer develops the first practical actively insulated battery pack, the discussion will change...
Click to expand...

Please re-read my post! Your post (logic) is circular - what's the point?

1. I'm not a proponent of TMS when a BEV has limited battery capacity, e.g. Leaf, and the battery is not unstable.
2. If an BEV battery requires TMS, then the battery needs to be insulated from the vehicle's chassis,
i.e. the thermal resistance from the battery to the chassis must be increased or the TMS has basically
little to no effect.
3. Without TMS, insulating or not insulating and the extent of insulation of the battery from the chassis and/or the
environment requires an engineering thermal analysis. In some applications, some form of insulation maybe beneficial.

It's doubtful any forum members have the engineering data to state whether any form of battery insulation is of value,
whether or not TMS is being used, for any BEV.
 
I've honestly never understood why people in hot climates buy a Leaf, when they know the pack has no TMS. I only bought a Leaf because I live in a colder climate, so premature pack degradation is far less likely.

If you choose to buy a Leaf, you live in a hot climate, and you do so understanding that the battery pack will degrade much quicker, then you can hardly complain when it does.

I think that Nissan should not sell the Leaf in hotter states, it's just not very ethical - particularly when EV newbies are considering a Leaf with no knowledge of the battery degradation issues.
 
Deltaflyer21 said:
Some mostly well thought out debate here. I just pre-ordered a 2018 with little reservation as to the durability of the battery, and here's why.

First, the Leaf is not a Tesla or a Bolt. They aren't the same price, so comparing isn't terribly fair. If I did compare and hold it against Nissan, or others that don't have liquid cooling, I simply wouldn't have entered the EV market as it would have been wildly outside of our budget.

Second, degradation of the battery happens in all batteries. Sure, a Tesla will lose less over time, but its also a 100 Kwh battery compared to Nissan's current 30 Kwh. From what I understand, the density of the two batteries is very different, albeit similar chemistry, and thus, not a fair comparison. Unless there is third party, impartial data being provided from manufacturers, all we really have are personal accounts, which is something, but frankly not entirely trustworthy.

Finally, the warranty from Nissan, and many others, is 8 years against capacity loss up to %30 (not the overall loss, but the 8 years is). I understand some are very cynical when it comes to these things, but I've read the document and its pretty straight forward and clear. I'm confident that even at its worse loss of 30% after eight years, I'll still be rolling on average close to 170 kms on a charge...not that bad.

I suppose thermal management is nice, but so would have been the budget to pay for it ;).

All submitted respectfully.
Click to expand...

Excellent, well thought out, respectful first post. Welcome to the forum, Deltaflyer!
 
TonyWilliams said:
It appears that the 2019 LEAF e+ with 60kWh battery and 225 EPA range will have Tempertaure Management of the battery.
Click to expand...

With an expected increase in chademo speed as well. Hard to believe otherwise. The real question becomes can they do it all and keep the price down? Its my thinking that is the reason they have not already come out with it. They want to maintain that $30-35K price range or at least near that.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
TonyWilliams said:
It appears that the 2019 LEAF e+ with 60kWh battery and 225 EPA range will have Tempertaure Management of the battery.
Click to expand...

With an expected increase in chademo speed as well. Hard to believe otherwise. The real question becomes can they do it all and keep the price down? Its my thinking that is the reason they have not already come out with it. They want to maintain that $30-35K price range or at least near that.
Click to expand...

This is my thinking. But it's based more on hope and wishful thinking than any kind of hard facts.
 
I agree with Tony and Dave. There is space on the market for two versions of the Leaf, because not everybody is longing to spend upwards of "Bolt EV" money on an EV. Additionally, not everybody needs 230+ miles per charge. We are happy with the 80-100 mile range of our Leaf, and if I got another job that is 50+ miles one way, I will rather move. Bear in mind I live in the Atlanta suburbs.

Nevertheless, I will be willing to trade in our German SUV for a similarly classed EV, but I am not willing to spend another 80k-100K on a vehicle if this SUV breaks. We put less than 8,000 miles a year on it because wifey is a stay at home mom.
 
Jedlacks said:
I agree with Tony and Dave. There is space on the market for two versions of the Leaf, because not everybody is longing to spend upwards of "Bolt EV" money on an EV. Additionally, not everybody needs 230+ miles per charge. We are happy with the 80-100 mile range of our Leaf, and if I got another job that is 50+ miles one way, I will rather move. Bear in mind I live in the Atlanta suburbs.

Nevertheless, I will be willing to trade in our German SUV for a similarly classed EV, but I am not willing to spend another 80k-100K on a vehicle if this SUV breaks. We put less than 8,000 miles a year on it because wifey is a stay at home mom.
Click to expand...

We are in this same situation. Our existing leaf 2016 30KWH serves 100 percent of our needs. That will change when we retire in 5 years and we will get something with a solid 300 KM of range at that time. But I don't think I would ever pay more to go to say 500 KM of range. So if the 500 km range was the same price fine, but if a manufacturer has a 300 km version and a 500 km version it wold be a waste for us to buy anything over 300. I hope manufacturers in the future continue to offer medium range EV's at lower cost.
 
webeleafowners said:
Jedlacks said:
I agree with Tony and Dave. There is space on the market for two versions of the Leaf, because not everybody is longing to spend upwards of "Bolt EV" money on an EV. Additionally, not everybody needs 230+ miles per charge. We are happy with the 80-100 mile range of our Leaf, and if I got another job that is 50+ miles one way, I will rather move. Bear in mind I live in the Atlanta suburbs.

Nevertheless, I will be willing to trade in our German SUV for a similarly classed EV, but I am not willing to spend another 80k-100K on a vehicle if this SUV breaks. We put less than 8,000 miles a year on it because wifey is a stay at home mom.
Click to expand...

We are in this same situation. Our existing leaf 2016 30KWH serves 100 percent of our needs. That will change when we retire in 5 years and we will get something with a solid 300 KM of range at that time. But I don't think I would ever pay more to go to say 500 KM of range. So if the 500 km range was the same price fine, but if a manufacturer has a 300 km version and a 500 km version it wold be a waste for us to buy anything over 300. I hope manufacturers in the future continue to offer medium range EV's at lower cost.
Click to expand...
One already does -- The VERY nicely equipped Tesla Model 3 220 mile range with Supercharger network for $36k. You can of course pay more for options like a front to back glass roof and rear heated seats.
 
SageBrush said:
webeleafowners said:
Jedlacks said:
I agree with Tony and Dave. There is space on the market for two versions of the Leaf, because not everybody is longing to spend upwards of "Bolt EV" money on an EV. Additionally, not everybody needs 230+ miles per charge. We are happy with the 80-100 mile range of our Leaf, and if I got another job that is 50+ miles one way, I will rather move. Bear in mind I live in the Atlanta suburbs.

Nevertheless, I will be willing to trade in our German SUV for a similarly classed EV, but I am not willing to spend another 80k-100K on a vehicle if this SUV breaks. We put less than 8,000 miles a year on it because wifey is a stay at home mom.
Click to expand...

We are in this same situation. Our existing leaf 2016 30KWH serves 100 percent of our needs. That will change when we retire in 5 years and we will get something with a solid 300 KM of range at that time. But I don't think I would ever pay more to go to say 500 KM of range. So if the 500 km range was the same price fine, but if a manufacturer has a 300 km version and a 500 km version it wold be a waste for us to buy anything over 300. I hope manufacturers in the future continue to offer medium range EV's at lower cost.
Click to expand...
One already does -- The VERY nicely equipped Tesla Model 3 220 mile range with Supercharger network for $36k. You can of course pay more for options like a front to back glass roof and rear heated seats.
Click to expand...

Yah the T3 looks really nice. It is a contender but only if Tesla opens up a service centre a little closer to us. Right now they are 500 KM away. By the time we retire there will be more players although I wouldn't hesitate to go Nissan again. The supercharger network is a nice to have not a need to have thing for us as DCFC is growing well where we drive. It should be fun.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
TonyWilliams said:
It appears that the 2019 LEAF e+ with 60kWh battery and 225 EPA range will have Tempertaure Management of the battery.
Click to expand...
With an expected increase in chademo speed as well. Hard to believe otherwise. The real question becomes can they do it all and keep the price down? Its my thinking that is the reason they have not already come out with it. They want to maintain that $30-35K price range or at least near that.
Click to expand...
This is my thinking. But it's based more on hope and wishful thinking than any kind of hard facts.
Click to expand...
It would have been an odd decision, IMO to add either liquid cooling or pack insulation to the 2018 LEAF.

Even more bizarre, would be to add it to only some of (the likely lower production volume, higher capacity pack versions) the 2019 LEAFs.

Adding either feature is relatively trivial from an engineering standpoint, though very expensive in terms of production cost and efficiency.

If Nissan saw any benefit, why did it not add either or both features to the 2018 MY?

So, while anything is possible, until a high integrity source reports otherwise, I think we should expect Nissan to retain passive thermal management, primarily utilizing conductive cooling, in all 2019 MY LEAFs.

Either or both pack designs could use suppplementary active air cooling, much as some other BEV manufactures have, which is very low cost, but provides minimal benefits in terms of reducing battery temperature.

I'd regard blowing air from the standard AC system over the cell cases as mainly a placebo for those suffering from capacity loss anxiety, but it would allow Nissan to tout this benefit, to those misinformed buyers for which it could be appealing.
 
webeleafowners said:
SageBrush said:
webeleafowners said:
We are in this same situation. Our existing leaf 2016 30KWH serves 100 percent of our needs. That will change when we retire in 5 years and we will get something with a solid 300 KM of range at that time. But I don't think I would ever pay more to go to say 500 KM of range. So if the 500 km range was the same price fine, but if a manufacturer has a 300 km version and a 500 km version it wold be a waste for us to buy anything over 300. I hope manufacturers in the future continue to offer medium range EV's at lower cost.
Click to expand...
One already does -- The VERY nicely equipped Tesla Model 3 220 mile range with Supercharger network for $36k. You can of course pay more for options like a front to back glass roof and rear heated seats.
Click to expand...

Yah the T3 looks really nice. It is a contender but only if Tesla opens up a service centre a little closer to us. Right now they are 500 KM away. By the time we retire there will be more players although I wouldn't hesitate to go Nissan again. The supercharger network is a nice to have not a need to have thing for us as DCFC is growing well where we drive. It should be fun.
Click to expand...
My service center is even further away. I'm going to take a (hopefully small) leap of faith and rely on Tesla reliability and the Ranger service. Oh, and continue to advocate for a service manual so I can perform the simple maintenance at home.
 
edatoakrun said:
GetOffYourGas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
With an expected increase in chademo speed as well. Hard to believe otherwise. The real question becomes can they do it all and keep the price down? Its my thinking that is the reason they have not already come out with it. They want to maintain that $30-35K price range or at least near that.
Click to expand...
This is my thinking. But it's based more on hope and wishful thinking than any kind of hard facts.
Click to expand...
It would have been an odd decision, IMO to add either liquid cooling or pack insulation to the 2018 LEAF.

Even more bizarre, would be to add it to only some of (the likely lower production volume, higher capacity pack versions) the 2019 LEAFs.

Adding either feature is relatively trivial from an engineering standpoint, though very expensive in terms of production cost and efficiency.

If Nissan saw any benefit, why did it not add either or both features to the 2018 MY?

So, while anything is possible, until a high integrity source reports otherwise, I think we should expect Nissan to retain passive thermal management, primarily utilizing conductive cooling, in all 2019 MY LEAFs.

Either or both pack designs could use suppplementary active air cooling, much as some other BEV manufactures have, which is very low cost, but provides minimal benefits in terms of reducing battery temperature.

I'd regard blowing air from the standard AC system over the cell cases as mainly a placebo for those suffering from capacity loss anxiety, but it would allow Nissan to tout this benefit, to those misinformed buyers for which it could be appealing.
Click to expand...
Air cooling via internal fans would be relatively cheap to do and have a minimal drain on the battery. Even a small airflow will remove a surprising amount of heat. MIght not help much while driving but could certainly help during charging. Could also cool down the battery while parked particularly overnight. It would have to be better than sitting in stagnant air trying to cool. I suppose that you could even vent into the rear passenger compartment for a little extra heat in the winter and dump it outside in the summer.
 
johnlocke said:
edatoakrun said:
GetOffYourGas said:
This is my thinking. But it's based more on hope and wishful thinking than any kind of hard facts.
Click to expand...
It would have been an odd decision, IMO to add either liquid cooling or pack insulation to the 2018 LEAF.

Even more bizarre, would be to add it to only some of (the likely lower production volume, higher capacity pack versions) the 2019 LEAFs.

Adding either feature is relatively trivial from an engineering standpoint, though very expensive in terms of production cost and efficiency.

If Nissan saw any benefit, why did it not add either or both features to the 2018 MY?

So, while anything is possible, until a high integrity source reports otherwise, I think we should expect Nissan to retain passive thermal management, primarily utilizing conductive cooling, in all 2019 MY LEAFs.

Either or both pack designs could use suppplementary active air cooling, much as some other BEV manufactures have, which is very low cost, but provides minimal benefits in terms of reducing battery temperature.

I'd regard blowing air from the standard AC system over the cell cases as mainly a placebo for those suffering from capacity loss anxiety, but it would allow Nissan to tout this benefit, to those misinformed buyers for which it could be appealing.
Click to expand...
Air cooling via internal fans would be relatively cheap to do and have a minimal drain on the battery. Even a small airflow will remove a surprising amount of heat. MIght not help much while driving but could certainly help during charging. Could also cool down the battery while parked particularly overnight. It would have to be better than sitting in stagnant air trying to cool. I suppose that you could even vent into the rear passenger compartment for a little extra heat in the winter and dump it outside in the summer.
Click to expand...

It depends how the battery is mounted/attached to the vehicle's chassis and the thermal resistance between
the battery and the chassis. If the thermal resistance is effectively zero, then the fans must also cool the
vehicle's chassis to cool the battery.
 
edatoakrun said:
It would have been an odd decision, IMO to add either liquid cooling or pack insulation to the 2018 LEAF.

Even more bizarre, would be to add it to only some of (the likely lower production volume, higher capacity pack versions) the 2019 LEAFs.

Adding either feature is relatively trivial from an engineering standpoint, though very expensive in terms of production cost and efficiency.

If Nissan saw any benefit, why did it not add either or both features to the 2018 MY?
Click to expand...

May have to do with the 60kWH pack being a different chemistry (NMC 811).
 

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