2016 30 kWh Battery data

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joeriv said:
A shallower charge/discharge curve has been shown to dramatically improve battery life.

Do you have a source on this? I'd like to read about it.


Could be true but Nissan instrumentation masks that. The method Nissan uses to track charge capacity is obviously flawed. ahr is not an easy thing to quantify and the reality is only a ballpark figure is really needed but LEAF Spy makes us want to know why every little fluctuation is happening which I am guessing is one of the "under the table" reasons why LEAF Spy will cease to function on 2018's.

What does seem apparent is shallow cycling increases the error of measurements but several deep cycles and full recharges corrects that.
 
joeriv said:
A shallower charge/discharge curve has been shown to dramatically improve battery life.

Do you have a source on this? I'd like to read about it.
google "shallow cycling of li-ion battery to improve life" for more info. Tesla does this by default, limiting battery charge to 80% unless you invoke travel mode which allows the battery to charge to 100%. Most people automatically limit the discharge depth to 20-30% just because no one wants to run out of charge in the middle of town or on the highway. They just plug back in at the end of the day. I know that I charge anytime I end up below 40% at the end of the day. I also charge up if I know I'm going to drive a lot the next day. Just makes sense.
 
As of Friday I have 9434 mi 60.92 Ah 76%SOH 75.08 hx 14mv cell differences. 278 GID at full charge. 1 bar missing for a week now. About 80 miles of range.

From my stats it seems to indicate it is degrading at a linear rate.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
joeriv said:
A shallower charge/discharge curve has been shown to dramatically improve battery life.

Do you have a source on this? I'd like to read about it.


Could be true but Nissan instrumentation masks that. The method Nissan uses to track charge capacity is obviously flawed. ahr is not an easy thing to quantify and the reality is only a ballpark figure is really needed but LEAF Spy makes us want to know why every little fluctuation is happening which I am guessing is one of the "under the table" reasons why LEAF Spy will cease to function on 2018's.

What does seem apparent is shallow cycling increases the error of measurements but several deep cycles and full recharges corrects that.

"The 'blind' leading the 'blind." Hyperbole expressed to some can invoke a valid hypothesis!
 
Just crossed 33000 miles. Current battery stats are 281 Gids at full charge, 61.49AH, SOH=77%, Hx=69.93. 55 QC and 617 L1/L2. 12mv cell balance. I've lost almost a quarter of my battery capacity and am still at 11 bars.

As a quick note, I had to fast charge my battery today and it charged from 15% to 100% in about 28-30 minutes. It was still charging at 80 amps at the end which was odd since normally it starts to taper off at 85-90%. It could be because it was so hot today (101 degrees). I finished the charge and checked the battery temps. 11 bars and 130 degrees. Not good for the battery but I thought that the charge controller monitored battery temps. Don't know why it didn't slow or even stop the charging process.
 
johnlocke said:
Just crossed 33000 miles. Current battery stats are 281 Gids at full charge, 61.49AH, SOH=77%, Hx=69.93. 55 QC and 617 L1/L2. 12mv cell balance. I've lost almost a quarter of my battery capacity and am still at 11 bars.

As a quick note, I had to fast charge my battery today and it charged from 15% to 100% in about 28-30 minutes. It was still charging at 80 amps at the end which was odd since normally it starts to taper off at 85-90%. It could be because it was so hot today (101 degrees). I finished the charge and checked the battery temps. 11 bars and 130 degrees. Not good for the battery but I thought that the charge controller monitored battery temps. Don't know why it didn't slow or even stop the charging process.

I see that all time time with 125 amp chargers. I just did 30 mins at EVGO Tacoma yesterday. started with 5ish %, went to about 95% and was charging about 80 amps as well at the end. My temps only got to the low 110's though. I did hit 11 TBs on my 2nd QC later in the day. Almost to 21,000 miles with 9 days until my 10th month in service and still no loss.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
Almost to 21,000 miles with 9 days until my 10th month in service and still no loss.
No loss ... of what ?
Capacity
Or a bar, that happens at somewhere in the 15-20% loss range ?

I wonder if you realize just how faint your praise is to an outsider looking in, happy that an almost 10 month old car is not displaying severe degradation yet. A normal but uninformed reader might guess you meant to type years.
 
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Almost to 21,000 miles with 9 days until my 10th month in service and still no loss.
No loss ... of what ?
Capacity
Or a bar, that happens at somewhere in the 15-20% loss range ?

I wonder if you realize just how faint your praise is to an outsider looking in, happy that an almost 10 month old car is not displaying severe degradation yet. A normal but uninformed reader might guess you meant to type years.

no loss of "anything". still 82.34 ahr, 28.1 kwh available, 363 GIDs, 100% SOH....
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Almost to 21,000 miles with 9 days until my 10th month in service and still no loss.
No loss ... of what ?
Capacity
Or a bar, that happens at somewhere in the 15-20% loss range ?

I wonder if you realize just how faint your praise is to an outsider looking in, happy that an almost 10 month old car is not displaying severe degradation yet. A normal but uninformed reader might guess you meant to type years.

no loss of "anything". still 82.34 ahr, 28.1 kwh available, 363 GIDs, 100% SOH....
My #'s are identical to yours but I do notice L.Spy stops counting at 28.1 kwh even though an additional 5 to 6 hundred watts appear to add to the total capacity (the Wh counter) before the relay cuts out,
Strange
 
ElectricEddy said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
SageBrush said:
No loss ... of what ?
Capacity
Or a bar, that happens at somewhere in the 15-20% loss range ?

I wonder if you realize just how faint your praise is to an outsider looking in, happy that an almost 10 month old car is not displaying severe degradation yet. A normal but uninformed reader might guess you meant to type years.

no loss of "anything". still 82.34 ahr, 28.1 kwh available, 363 GIDs, 100% SOH....
My #'s are identical to yours but I do notice L.Spy stops counting at 28.1 kwh even though an additional 5 to 6 hundred watts appear to add to the total capacity (the Wh counter) before the relay cuts out,
Strange

this I had not noticed but then again, I wouldn't be watching this anyway. I power up LS daily to record stats but only run it when charging as some fast chargers or when stretching the range.

LS supposedly goes to 375 GIDs but never seen that. I guess I could change the GID value to see how high it goes but then again, why?


FYI; New LEAF may not be compatible with LEAF Spy... that would be a HUGE bummer.
 
Another report of a 2 bar loser in AZ.

"I have a 2016 SV with a 30 kWh battery that has lost two bars. The first was around 12k miles, and the second at 17k miles. My car is now at 19,800 miles and I FINALLY bought Leaf Spy and an OBDII adapter because my range has dropped considerably in the past month or so. My stats are as follows, AHr = 52.31, SOH = 65%, and Hx = 61.23%. "

It definitely looks like the percentage values for the loss of bars has changed and not in a good way. If this guy is down to 65% capacity and is only down 2 bars, where the Hell is a 4 bar loss going to be? 50% 40% Something less?
 
johnlocke said:
Another report of a 2 bar loser in AZ.

"I have a 2016 SV with a 30 kWh battery that has lost two bars. The first was around 12k miles, and the second at 17k miles. My car is now at 19,800 miles and I FINALLY bought Leaf Spy and an OBDII adapter because my range has dropped considerably in the past month or so. My stats are as follows, AHr = 52.31, SOH = 65%, and Hx = 61.23%. "

It definitely looks like the percentage values for the loss of bars has changed and not in a good way. If this guy is down to 65% capacity and is only down 2 bars, where the Hell is a 4 bar loss going to be? 50% 40% Something less?

If that SoH is correct, then it looks like Nissan has changed where the bars get lost in order to minimize warranty replacements. They may be setting themselves up for another lawsuit. I've brought it up a dozen times before, but I'll bring it up again, but Nissan tries to sweep things under the rug. Just do a google search for (Nissan CVT failure) and you'll see where for certain year models they extended the CVT warranty on cars like the Juke, etc, to 100,000 miles, while others like the 2014 Versa that I have in addition to my Leaf, had the CVT warranty expire at 60,000 miles. (Our CVT started experiencing problems at 15,000 miles and finally failed at 45,000 miles so I expect that since our replacement started having issues again at 63,000 miles that this replacement one will fail at 90,000-95,000 miles.) Nissan Versa forums have many others with the issue, yet Nissan will not extend the warranty on the CVTs on these cars to 100,000 miles. If ours goes out prior to 100,000 miles, I will talk about the matter with my lawyer, if we don't manage to get rid of the car before then.

Back to the Leaf, however, since the warranty isn't based upon % capacity, but based on bars, if they change the metrics that the bars are based around, they're gaming the system. I fear what Nissan will do to the reputation of BEVs when people are buying the 2018 Leaf and 3 years into ownership, their 150 mile range BEV only gets 105-110 miles. I think they'll howl.
 
Durandal said:
johnlocke said:
Another report of a 2 bar loser in AZ.

"I have a 2016 SV with a 30 kWh battery that has lost two bars. The first was around 12k miles, and the second at 17k miles. My car is now at 19,800 miles and I FINALLY bought Leaf Spy and an OBDII adapter because my range has dropped considerably in the past month or so. My stats are as follows, AHr = 52.31, SOH = 65%, and Hx = 61.23%. "

It definitely looks like the percentage values for the loss of bars has changed and not in a good way. If this guy is down to 65% capacity and is only down 2 bars, where the Hell is a 4 bar loss going to be? 50% 40% Something less?

If that SoH is correct, then it looks like Nissan has changed where the bars get lost in order to minimize warranty replacements. They may be setting themselves up for another lawsuit. I've brought it up a dozen times before, but I'll bring it up again, but Nissan tries to sweep things under the rug. Just do a google search for (Nissan CVT failure) and you'll see where for certain year models they extended the CVT warranty on cars like the Juke, etc, to 100,000 miles, while others like the 2014 Versa that I have in addition to my Leaf, had the CVT warranty expire at 60,000 miles. (Our CVT started experiencing problems at 15,000 miles and finally failed at 45,000 miles so I expect that since our replacement started having issues again at 63,000 miles that this replacement one will fail at 90,000-95,000 miles.) Nissan Versa forums have many others with the issue, yet Nissan will not extend the warranty on the CVTs on these cars to 100,000 miles. If ours goes out prior to 100,000 miles, I will talk about the matter with my lawyer, if we don't manage to get rid of the car before then.

Back to the Leaf, however, since the warranty isn't based upon % capacity, but based on bars, if they change the metrics that the bars are based around, they're gaming the system. I fear what Nissan will do to the reputation of BEVs when people are buying the 2018 Leaf and 3 years into ownership, their 150 mile range BEV only gets 105-110 miles. I think they'll howl.


I'm that "2 bar loser in AZ" (I've been called worse! lol) Here's the screenshot I took this morning after charging my car overnight. While I did gain .01 on my AHr, my SOH is still 65%, and my Hx is now slightly lower. All of this is directional of course, but I miss starting my car and seeing 123 miles on the GOM, and now I see about 1/3rd of that and have anywhere from 80-84 miles on the GOM. My point is that it really does feel like I lost a 1/3rd of the battery and the stats back that up.

https://app.box.com/s/8sgil51ittsj03f9vqp8f4nps8mc2el8
 
samrovner said:
I'm that "2 bar loser in AZ" (I've been called worse! lol) Here's the screenshot I took this morning after charging my car overnight. While I did gain .01 on my AHr, my SOH is still 65%, and my Hx is now slightly lower. All of this is directional of course, but I miss starting my car and seeing 123 miles on the GOM, and now I see about 1/3rd of that and have anywhere from 80-84 miles on the GOM. My point is that it really does feel like I lost a 1/3rd of the battery and the stats back that up.

https://app.box.com/s/8sgil51ittsj03f9vqp8f4nps8mc2el8
That really stinks man! 52.32 ah! You've got less capacity left than a brand new 24kWh pack! Try a 100% to 5% range test and see what you get. but in any case, it certainly does appear like you've lost 1/3 of your capacity, and for the Leaf to only claim 2 bars lost is not representative of the lost percentages. I suspect they've modified it from the original 15% on bar 1 and 8% on remaining bars to be 20% on bar 1 and who knows on the rest.

Are you leasing, or did you buy this? If leasing, at least you can offload it.. If buying, even though they're fudging on the metrics, you'll likely get a replacement battery, but the Leaf may be unusable for your use case before that happens. How long is your commute?
 
Durandal said:
samrovner said:
I'm that "2 bar loser in AZ" (I've been called worse! lol) Here's the screenshot I took this morning after charging my car overnight. While I did gain .01 on my AHr, my SOH is still 65%, and my Hx is now slightly lower. All of this is directional of course, but I miss starting my car and seeing 123 miles on the GOM, and now I see about 1/3rd of that and have anywhere from 80-84 miles on the GOM. My point is that it really does feel like I lost a 1/3rd of the battery and the stats back that up.

https://app.box.com/s/8sgil51ittsj03f9vqp8f4nps8mc2el8
That really stinks man! 52.32 ah! You've got less capacity left than a brand new 24kWh pack! Try a 100% to 5% range test and see what you get. but in any case, it certainly does appear like you've lost 1/3 of your capacity, and for the Leaf to only claim 2 bars lost is not representative of the lost percentages. I suspect they've modified it from the original 15% on bar 1 and 8% on remaining bars to be 20% on bar 1 and who knows on the rest.

Are you leasing, or did you buy this? If leasing, at least you can offload it.. If buying, even though they're fudging on the metrics, you'll likely get a replacement battery, but the Leaf may be unusable for your use case before that happens. How long is your commute?


A lot of this lingo is new to me so I'm not sure exactly what this means, but a full charge shows 239 GIDs. How many GIDs is a new 30kWh pack? My guess is somewhere around 360? I really want to know what the thresholds are for a 4 bar loss, and now that I have Leafspy I'm actually looking forward to losing my 3rd bar and seeing where it's at. It's cooling down a little in Phoenix, but not a lot, and I feel like I'm going to lose that 3rd bar soon.

I am leasing, but I ALMOST decided to buy it. So glad I didn't. My reasoning to purchase was that after 3 years the degradation would put it at a new 24kWh pack. My decision to not buy it is that I wanted a car with better safety tech (semi-autonomous), and I knew that was on the horizon.

My commute is 65 miles roundtrip. I do have access to 120v charging at work, but I thought I left that hassle behind with my 2013 LEAF.
 
Durandal said:
That really stinks man! 52.32 ah! You've got less capacity left than a brand new 24kWh pack!

I'll say more, it is less than I have on a 18 m/o 24kWh replacement pack with about 30k miles on it.
 
It looks like this might be the more comprehensive thread, so I'm cross-posting from here (sorry if that's a no-no): http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606&start=210

Another 2016 30 kWh owner checking in with rapid capacity loss compared to the 2013 model I had previously. I'll add all my stats later, but I'm showing around 22.5 kWh usable capacity with SOH of 79% and Hx of 76%. When the car was new I could easily go 120-130 miles and now I'm down to about 100. I've still got all 12 bars on the dash.

I hadn't paid much attention in recent months since the range is still adequate for my commute of about 65 miles. I also moved recently and don't have a L2 installed at my house yet so I've been doing strictly L1 charging and probably a weekly QC. When I first started noticing the diminished range over the last couple weeks I assumed my pack was just out of balance since I wasn't regularly getting to 100% charge. My max voltage differential at low battery is only around 12 mV though and that's only 6 at high charge.

Pretty disappointing. I haven't read the whole thread yet but I'm curious where most people are losing their first bar? I'm shocked that a 20% capacity loss hasn't triggered it. I agree with the sentiments expressed here that this looks like deliberate obfuscation by Nissan.
 
My guess: a 30 kWh LEAF is a 24 kWh LEAF in sheep's clothing.
Nissan will have exceeded my expectations for underhanded behavior if the 30 kWh model has to drop BELOW the threshold capacity of a 24 kWh model before the degradation warranty kicks in. Much more likely I think that they will be the same, so about 42 Ahr.

42 Ahr is ~ 15 kWh, so about 55 - 60 miles of EPA range. That works out to ~ 50-55% remaining capacity of a 30 kwh model

The next question is whether Nissan will have the gall to pull this crap with the LEAF2. I've got a ring-side seat (free!) and popcorn, but my EV dollars are not going to be gambled on Nissan.
 
Can you folks please put your information (location, mileage, etc.) in your signature so that we know the environment we're dealing with.

Thanks.
 
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