Hydrogen and FCEVs discussion thread

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H2 production

http://www.planete-energies.com/en/medias/close/hydrogen-production

Hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element in the universe, found in the Sun, other stars and the gas planets in our solar system. It occurs naturally on Earth, but not in large enough quantities to be produced cost-competitively. It therefore needs to be separated from other elements.

On Earth, hydrogen is generally found in compounds with other elements. The most common are carbon, with which it forms methane (CH4), and oxygen, with which it forms water (H2O). How is pure hydrogen made? To obtain pure hydrogen for industrial applications, it must be separated from the chemical elements to which it is bound.

Today, 95% of hydrogen is produced either from wood or from fossil fuels, such as natural gas and oil. Three types of production process are currently in use:

1) The most common hydrogen production process is natural gas reforming — sometimes called steam methane reforming because it uses high-temperature steam. When exposed to steam and heat, the carbon (C) atoms of methane (CH4) separate. After two successive reactions, they reform separately to produce hydrogen (H2) and carbon dioxide (carbon dioxide (co2)). This operation therefore requires natural gas.

2) Another process is charcoal gasification1. Charcoal consists mainly of carbon and water. Burned in a reactor at a very high temperature of between 1,200 and 1,500 °C, the charcoal releases gas that separates and reforms to produce hydrogen (H2) and carbon monoxide (CO).

3) Hydrogen can also be produced using electricity, through electrolysis of water. An electric current is used to split water (H2O) into oxygen (O2) and hydrogen (H2). This method is not as cost-effective as using fossil fuels. Hydrogen produced by steam methane reforming costs around $2 per kilogram at the plant gate (excluding distribution costs), triple the cost of natural gas. Hydrogen produced using electrolysis is currently around four times more expensive, even before the cost of the electricity required is factored in.
 
Reading the 2017 CARB annual report, the reasons for delayed station openings are explained as follows:

Current understanding of hydrogen fueling station development progress indicates a station
deployment pace one year slower than previously expected. In the 2016 Annual Evaluation, 38
stations were expected to be complete by the end of 2016; a similar number of stations (37) are
now expected to be open by the end of 2017. Similarly, 50 stations were previously expected by
the end of 2017; the updated projection is 42 by the close of 2018.

This shift in expectations is
indicative of ongoing difficulties with particular stations. Difficulties typically center on either
securing a mutually acceptable lease agreement between the station developer and the host gas
station’s owner and/or operator and protracted permitting and planning approval processes. In
a small number of cases, there have been difficulties with equipment procurement or the station
has undergone multiple rounds of tuning in order to complete the station testing and validation
process. GFO 15-605 introduced the enforcement of critical milestones to help ensure these types
of delays are prevented with newly-funded stations.

Between November of 2016 and March of
2017 the Energy Commission issued Stop Work Orders on nine stations funded in previous years
due to station developers’ lack of significant progress in construction of the stations and the
state’s fiscal deadline to utilize the funds. Station developers were required to provide a viable
and reasonable plan to complete station construction to potentially lift the Stop Work Orders. The
Energy Commission has lifted the Stop Work Order for the Mountain View station and is currently
considering whether to proceed with the Emeryville station. Completion of the Orange, Rohnert
Park, and North Hollywood stations remains uncertain. These five stations have been included in
the projections of this report. However, the Chino, Encinitas, Los Altos, and Newport
Beach upgrade (moved from the former Foster City station) are not proceeding since viable and
reasonable plans for completion were not received; hence, these stations are not included in
projections. Figure ES3 shows the latest expectation for cumulative hydrogen fueling network
development for all funded stations. . . .

1 Three Non-Retail stations currently have plans for upgrade to retail. Harbor City closed in Q4, 2016. Years 2014
and 2015 include a historical data correction. Three stations and one upgrade to retail no longer included due to
lack of substantial progress. CSULA included from 2014 on in this figure.
 
Via GCC:
DOE issues $6M request for proposals for H2@Scale projects
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/08/20170821-doe.html

The US Department of Energy (DOE) has issued a request for proposals (H2_AT_SCALE_CRADA_CALL) for research projects that address the Hydrogen at Scale (H2@Scale) concept (earlier post), which enables wide-scale production and use of hydrogen to address issues such as grid resiliency, energy storage and security, domestic job creation, and domestic leadership in innovation.

In 2016, DOE national laboratories identified the potential of hydrogen to decarbonize deeply a multitude of sectors in a proposal termed “H2@Scale”. Preliminary analysis performed by the national laboratories on the H2@Scale concept indicated that nearly a 50% reduction in greenhouse gas emissions is possible by 2050 via such large-scale hydrogen production and use.

Through this request from the National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL), the DOE’s Fuel Cell Technologies Office (FCTO) seeks to double the impact of its funding in the applied research portion of its portfolio, with a focus on techno-economic modeling and analysis; materials compatibility R&D; grid simulation and electrolyzer testing; materials and component manufacturing R&D; development and use of co-products from hydrogen production; and performance verification of hydrogen equipment to inform R&D. . . .

The H2@ Scale concept aims to develop transformational technologies that reduce the cost of hydrogen production and distribution, diversify the feedstock available for economic hydrogen production, enhance the flexibility of the power grid, reduce emissions through novel uses of low-cost hydrogen, generate jobs, and provide global technology leadership for export of next-generation energy solutions. . . .
 
Via GCC:
ULEMCo to offer a fuel cell range extender module for Nissan e-NV200 electric van
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/08/20170824-ulemco.html

. . . With the combination of the on-board hydrogen storage and fuel cell module, the van will have a range of more than 150 miles (241 km) when laden, satisfying the range requirements of most average daily delivery operations for this size of van.

ULEMCo specifically engineered the module to provide additional energy to the vehicle so that the operational practicality of the full electric vehicle can be widened to cope with seasonal range variation, working lifetime, and the impact on range when fully loaded—all things that currently limit the range of duties an operator can target for existing for zero-emission commercial vehicles.

Using a 12kW fuel cell and 1.6 kg/day on-board hydrogen storage capability, the van will have almost twice the range of the standard e-NV200, measured to NEDC standards, without sacrificing load space capacity.

ULEMCo’s fuel cell RX power module will be roof mounted, and provide motive power via the battery to support the drive load requirements for the base van. . . .
No details on price.
 
Via GCC:
EU NELLI project delivers new generation solid-oxide fuel cell; efficient and lower cost
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/08/201070830-nellhi.html

The EU-funded three-year NELLHI project has concluded after successfully developing a new stack design of solid oxide fuel cells, from an all-European supply chain. NELLHI combined European know-how in single cells, coatings, sealing, and stack design to produce a novel high-performance 1 kW SOFC stack along with with the proof of concept of a 10 kWe SOFC stack. . . .
 
DNAinaGoodWay said:
Working on more economical production of clean hydrogen:

https://futurism.com/researchers-can-now-make-hydrogen-fuel-using-liquid-metal/
Interesting article. Thanks!

But I can do without the author stating as fact the extremely doubtful future role of hydrogen in our world vis-a-vis BEVs:
futurism said:
Cars with hydrogen fuel cells carry hydrogen and take in oxygen from the air, which a catalyst combines to produce electricity. The problem is, these aren’t as easy to manufacture as the batteries in EVs.

That’s about to change, though, ...
Sorry, but that is not "about the change".
futurism said:
“The recent shift to electric cars is irreversible,” Datta said. The next step is hydrogen fuel cells, which can offer a longer range and are easier to refuel than recharging batteries.
Sorry, but this is the BIG LIE about hydrogen. It is not, and never will be, the "next step". A low-efficiency solution will NEVER replace a near-unity solution in the energy-constrained world in which we live. The best it can hope to achieve is some applications where batteries fall short. We have repeatedly identified some of these in this thread, not the least of which is seasonal energy storage.

But even if hydrogen reasearchers can overcome the massively lossy conversions that are associated with using hydrogen, it will still need to deal with the following issues:
1) Hydrogen cannot deliver on the promise of rapid refueling without employing rapid-cooling equipment during the refueling process. This is a lossy step in the long change of lossy steps.
2) The invention discussed in the article is needed ONLY for filtering hydrogen after it comes from fossil fuels. As such, it is not a way to replace PV->BEV with a renewable solution.
3) Hydrolysis is theoretically endothermic. If the theoretical efficiencies are to ever by approached, hydrolysis will need to be coupled with a continuous source of (high-temperature?) heat.
4) The fuel-cell reaction has a theoretical efficiency of about 83%. Ideally, that loss could be used as the source of heat for electrolysis, and perhaps we will eventually get to that point in stationary applications like seasonal energy storage, but this cannot be done in the transportation sector.
5) Important applications like seasonal energy storage can and are being addressed by technologies like ARES that not only promise to be cheaper, but that are already much closer to unity efficiency and offer much more benign environmental impacts than either H2 or batteries. Storing energy at 80% round-trip energy efficiency is actually a usable solution. The 40% round-trip efficiency of H2 from electrolysis is just a massive waste of resources.
 
Via GCC:
Shell, ITM Power to install 10MW electrolyzer for refinery hydrogen
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170901-shell.html

Shell, together with ITM Power, plans to install a 10MW electrolyzer to produce hydrogen at the Wesseling refinery site within the Rheinland Refinery Complex. This would be the largest unit of its kind in Germany and the world’s largest PEM (Polymer Electrolyte Membrane) electrolyzer.

Today, the refinery uses approximately 180,000 tons of hydrogen per year in its various plants. The hydrogen is currently produced as a byproduct of the refining process or through natural gas reforming; electrolysis instead uses electricity to split water into the base components of hydrogen and oxygen. Electrolysis using low-cost renewable electricity could be a key technology for CO2-free hydrogen production in the Shell Rheinland Refinery. . . .

The project aims to enable the construction and operation of a large-scale 10 MW electrolyzer that can produce high-quality and CO2-free hydrogen while demonstrating technology and cost improvements through upscaling and new business applications. . . .
 
GRA said:
Via GCC:
Shell, ITM Power to install 10MW electrolyzer for refinery hydrogen
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170901-shell.html

Shell, together with ITM Power, plans to install a 10MW electrolyzer to produce hydrogen at the Wesseling refinery site within the Rheinland Refinery Complex.
...
Today, the refinery uses approximately 180,000 tons of hydrogen per year in its various plants.. . .
I love how they quote the electrolysis in units of "apples" and the load in units of "oranges" with the desire that many will get the impression that Shell is converting their hydrogen production from fossil fuels to hydrolysis. But that couldn't be farther from the truth.

In fact, ITM's 1-MW electrolyzer produces less than 0.5 tons per day, so ten of them would produce shy of 5 tons/day (I'm using metric tons here). With 24/7 operation, these units are capable of producing less than 1% of the required hydrogen.

But will they run continuously? We don't know. They will certainly have downtime for maintenance, like all industrial equipment, but it's not even clear that running them will be cost-effective for Shell. Perhaps Shell has arrangements with their electricity supplier to get the electricity cheaply if they allow them to shut them down during times when the grid is overloaded.

Hopefully not too many businesses will think it is a good idea to drop a load equivalent to 1000 homes onto the electrical grid in yet another feel good exercise. Trying to produce all of their hydrogen with these electrolyzers would be equivalent to plunking down a city with nearly 150,000 homes and them asking the power company to power their new "city". And that's just for a single company...
 
RegGuheert said:
But will they run continuously? We don't know. They will certainly have downtime for maintenance, like all industrial equipment, but it's not even clear that running them will be cost-effective for Shell. Perhaps Shell has arrangements with their electricity supplier to get the electricity cheaply if they allow them to shut them down during times when the grid is overloaded.
Hmm.. Rheinland, Rheinland... That's Germany, isn't it? The country that's been in the news frequently the past two years or so because they have such a surplus that they PAY big consumers of electricity to soak up their excess electrical power? Where big, big loads that one wouldn't mind turning on and off fairly quickly (like hydrolyzers) would be desirable?
 
Levenkay said:
Hmm.. Rheinland, Rheinland... That's Germany, isn't it? The country that's been in the news frequently the past two years or so because they have such a surplus that they PAY big consumers of electricity to soak up their excess electrical power? Where big, big loads that one wouldn't mind turning on and off fairly quickly (like hydrolyzers) would be desirable?
It seems you are missing the point, so I will be more clear.

Choose one of the following undesirable options:

1) If Shell runs their 10-MW electrolyzer continuously, it will produce less than 1% of their hydrogen needs and will consume the equivalent electricity of 10,000 homes (my previous calculation was incorrect). During the vast majority of the time when the renewable generators are NOT curtailed, this electrolyzer will be powered by fossil fuels.
or 2) If Shell runs this electrolyzer ONLY when renewable generators would have been curtailed, then Shell will produce WAY less than 1% (0.02$)of their needs and the cost of the hydrogen produced by this electrolyzer, both in terms of Euros and in terms of damage to the environment, will even higher than it already is when running full-tilt.
 
Via GCC:
London police trialing Suzuki Burgman fuel cell scooters; first trial outside of Japan
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170905-suzuki.html

. . . The hydrogen fuel cell scooters will be used by Police Community Support Officers within the Roads and Transport Policing Command and will be based at Alperton Deployment Centre. The trial will last for 18 months and will enable assessment of the suitability of the fuel cell scooters for various roles. On a broader scale the trial will help The Metropolitan Police to understand where this clean technology could be adopted across its fleet in the future.

The Burgman Fuel Cell scooters are not yet commercially available. The MPS is the only organization outside of Japan that Suzuki has approached to undertake such a trial. These scooters will be fitted with telematics to enable Suzuki to gather data on the scooters systems to assist further development. . . .

The trial is being run at no cost to the Met, with the loan of the vehicles from Suzuki Motor Corporation. The maintenance and fuel costs will be met by a collaborative project which is being part funded by the Advanced Propulsion Centre (APC). Lead partner of this project is British fuel cell technology company Intelligent Energy in association with Suzuki GB and Cenex.

This trial complements a Metropolitan Police Service decision made in late 2015 to stop mandating diesel fuel for its fleet. Since then, it has been actively exploring ways to hybridize and electrify its fleet in addition to exploring other new technologies such as hydrogen. This is enabling The Metropolitan Police Service to make great strides towards its ambition of procuring 550 vehicles as zero or ultra-low emission by 2020 while ensuring a 24 x 7 fleet operational capability. . . .

The scooters will be located at a central London location and will be re-fueled using a private re-fueling station provided by Fuel Cell Systems. This mobile re-fuelling facility enables the scooters to be deployed elsewhere, or on deployment for long periods, as required.

The Suzuki Burgman Fuel Cell has a range of around 120 km (75 miles) before refueling is required. . . .
Spec sheet for the Burgmann is here: http://www.intelligent-energy.com/uploads/accompanying_files/Burgman_case_study.pdf
 
Via GCC:
New TOTAL hydrogen filling station in Karlsruhe produces H2 onsite with steam electrolysis and solar energy
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170907-total.html

A new TOTAL hydrogen filling station on Karlsruhe’s Südtangente ring-road was commissioned on Wednesday. The German Federal Ministry of Transport and Digital Infrastructure approved grants of approx. €970,000 (US$1.2 million) for the hydrogen facility under its National Innovation Program for Hydrogen and Fuel Cell Technology (NIP).

This H2 filling station—the eleventh in the TOTAL network and the tenth in the German federal state of Baden-Württemberg—is differentiated by producing hydrogen on-site through steam electrolysis, using electricity generated by a solar array.

This hydrogen filling station marks the first time that a steam electrolysis plant in flexible operation is used for the production of hydrogen. . .
.

Also GCC:
DOE to award $10.2M to 16 solid oxide fuel cell projects
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2017/09/20170907-sofc.html
 
Motor Trend magazine did a six month review of the Toyota H2 car:

KEY STATS ABOUT OUR TIME WITH A TOYOTA MIRAI:

Total distance: 10,497 miles
Total days: 179
Total H2: 171.249 kg
Total H2 cost: $2,703 (26 cents per mile)
Average fuel economy: 61.3 miles per kg (mpk)/62.5 mpg-e
EPA official mpk: 65.9
Average (mean) new range estimate after refueling: 272 miles (low: 254; high: 295)
Average (mean) total driving range (actual miles driven plus indicated range remaining): 279 miles (low: 239; high: 314)

*******

Any EV costs pennies per mile to operate. Typically about 4 cents per mile (12 cent per kWh average US COST divided by 3 miles per kWh consumption rate.

This is the singular reason why hydrogen cars will fail, and fail BIGLY. Toyota didn't even bother to bring a hrgrogen car or display for the largest National Drive Electric Week event in the USA, here in sunny San Diego, California USA.

Neither did any of the other two hydrogen players, Honda and Hyundai.

Well, at least they have lots and lots of government good will (called tax payer funds) to fund issues in the future. I'm sure the hydrogen lobby will milk it well.

So, what is the standard hydrogen proponent counter to high cost?

1) My hydrogen car gets "free" hydrogen from Toyota, Honda or Hyundai. Of course, that's only subsidized hydrogen, and it won't last forever.

2) Hydrogen will magically get cheaper. But, will the price of hydrogen decrease? The answer is probably not. The reason why it will not decrease is because hydrogen is already being produced on a truly massive scale as is. People that say that hydrogen will decrease in price drastically when there are 100,000 or some other low number of hydrogen cars present are willfully ignorant that hydrogen is used for ammonia product and oil refining.

Currently over 51 million metric tons of hydrogen is used worldwide. Converting to kg, that is 51,000,000,000 kg. The Mirai, the “best selling” hydrogen car would use on average 220 kg a year, so even if 100,000 fuel cell cars magically appeared, that would be 0.042% of the worldwide hydrogen usage. Needless to say, if such a small increase in demand or production can affect the price drastically, there’s a big problem (or Bigly, for you Trump voters).

Also, to further illustrate the point, if hydrogen can be sold cheaper than it is being made at an oil refinery, methanol plant or an ammonia plant, guess what happens? Economics takes over. As an ammonia producer, if there is a hydrogen station selling hydrogen cheaper than the ammonia producer can make hydrogen, they would simply buy up all the hydrogen from that station. They would "hard pipe" to the station and while in the process of hard piping, they’d send interns and drivers to purchase all the hydrogen from that low cost hydrogen station.

3) Hydrogen will be made from green resources, which means water and electricity. The simple, sad reality is that whatever electricity is used to make hydrogen from water, that same electricity can be far more cost efficiently in any EV. Not just 5-10% more efficient... 300-500% more efficient.
 
http://www.electricvehiclesresearch.com/articles/11616/porsche-trials-full-electric-40-tonners-for-logistics

The companies that together have sunk billions into fuel cell vehicles used to argue that the heavy things like buses and trucks could only be electrified with fuel cell. However, China is soon to celebrate 200,000 large pure electric buses in regular use and volume production of fuel cell buses has yet to begin.

What about trucks? Here there is little incentive to reduce emissions for these because they spend little or no time in city centers and operators are unlikely to pay a premium for green credentials beyond what the tightening regulations require. Volvo Group, the huge truck maker, says it is almost all about total cost of ownership of a truck. Nevertheless, IDTechEx finds that, here too, it is pure electric and conventional hybrid power trains that are in the lead though less dramatically because change is slower.

As with a minority of large buses, various forms of top up charging permit the battery to be downsized by 80% releasing more space for cargo and reducing the pure electric vehicle cost penalty. IDTechEx reports on industrial and commercial vehicles and on fuel cell vehicles tell more.

More than 600 trucks arrive at the Porsche plant in Leipzig every day as part of the company's logistics network. During the trial, the first truck with a purely electric drive is being used between the logistics centre and the assembly supply centre.

This action is part of the eJIT research project, which involves Porsche Leipzig as well as IAV GmbH, Schnellecke Logistics, Volkswagen Sachsen and the Saxony Automotive Supplier Network. The aim of the pilot project is to test the use of electric trucks under real conditions in multi-shift operation at automotive plants.

The electric truck is charged during the planned waiting times while it is being loaded at the supply centre. The battery is charged while the process is ongoing using a 150-kW fast charger, enabling the truck to be used in three-shift operation. Once fully charged, the truck has a range of around 70 kilometres and a top speed of 85 kilometres per hour. Alongside the project at Porsche Leipzig, a second electric truck is being tested by Volkswagen Sachsen at the Zwickau plant. The eJIT project is intended to run for a total of three years

A second stage of the project is scheduled for the coming year, with the Porsche plant in Leipzig set to operate a highly automated vehicle from 2018 onwards. The eJIT project is intended to run for a total of three years. The project partners IAV GmbH, Porsche Leipzig, Schnellecke Logistics, Volkswagen Sachsen and the Saxony Automotive Supplier Network have been working together since early 2016 on the electrification of trucks, with the aim of reducing noise and emissions at automotive sites.

The project is part of the technology programme "Information and communication technology for electric mobility III: Integrating commercial e-vehicles in logistics, energy, and mobility infrastructure", which is run by the German Federal Ministry for Economic Affairs and Energy (BMWi) and is a continuation of the previous research into the commercial use of electric mobility.
 
Really cool info, Tony. Thanks for sharing!

This really isn't the right thread for it though. The only reason to post it in this thread is to rub hydrogen's nose in it. Not that anyone here is advocating or pushing for a FCEV solution. So it's more like preaching to the choir.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
Really cool info, Tony. Thanks for sharing!

This really isn't the right thread for it though. The only reason to post it in this thread is to rub hydrogen's nose in it. Not that anyone here is advocating or pushing for a FCEV solution. So it's more like preaching to the choir.

You don't think we have hydrogen shills here?
 
TonyWilliams said:
GetOffYourGas said:
Really cool info, Tony. Thanks for sharing!

This really isn't the right thread for it though. The only reason to post it in this thread is to rub hydrogen's nose in it. Not that anyone here is advocating or pushing for a FCEV solution. So it's more like preaching to the choir.

You don't think we have hydrogen shills here?

wikipedia said:
A shill, also called a plant or a stooge, is a person who publicly helps or gives credibility to a person or organization without disclosing that they have a close relationship with the person or organization. Shills can carry out their operations in the areas of media, journalism, marketing, confidence games, or other business areas. A shill may also act to discredit opponents or critics of the person or organization in which they have a vested interest through character assassination or other means.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shill

I don't get that impression, no. But maybe I'm just naive?

I have found this thread very interesting. A decade or so ago, pursuing hydrogen seemed to make sense (to me). Now it is clear that it is a misdirection of limited funds. There is nothing I can do about how California spends its tax revenue. I just sit here on the other side of the country watching the hydrogen train wreck.

Regarding your post, isn't there a thread for EV trucking? If not, there really should be. It's starting to get interesting.
 
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