2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

cwerdna said:

techchimp said:

It is very troubling to me that Nissan is changing the value of a bar at their will.

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To be fair, Nissan in the '16 Leaf warranty booklet never listed any corresponding value(s) for any # of capacity bars vs. % of capacity remaining. So, they are unfortunately free to use whatever mapping they want.

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery#Battery_Capacity_Behavior is in the '11 Leaf service manual. I do recall it being missing in the '12 and '13 service manual. Unclear why it was removed.

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I think we all understand that it's legally okay for Nissan to do this, but morally it's reprehensible to have 8% of your battery life bars equate to a n 20% loss!

With the 24kwh batteries, Nissan had already burned a considerable amount of goodwill getting us to accept that the first bar represented a 15% loss, and 4 bars were actually under 70%. The new downward revision doesn't just remove the scab of the old wound, but digs out a fresh gash of customer trust that made me rescind recommending the leaf to people I know! Heck, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only who won't consider the leaf2 if it has the same "indicator bar" wording in its warranty. So it's really NOT FAIR, for both sides.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

Heck, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only who won't consider the leaf2 if it has the same "indicator bar" wording in its warranty.

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If a manufacturer doesn't state the % degradation at which the warranty kicks in, rather than some arbitrary and unknown indicator level, that would turn me away from them, too.

Oils4AsphaultOnly said:

cwerdna said:

techchimp said:

It is very troubling to me that Nissan is changing the value of a bar at their will.

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To be fair, Nissan in the '16 Leaf warranty booklet never listed any corresponding value(s) for any # of capacity bars vs. % of capacity remaining. So, they are unfortunately free to use whatever mapping they want.

http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery#Battery_Capacity_Behavior is in the '11 Leaf service manual. I do recall it being missing in the '12 and '13 service manual. Unclear why it was removed.

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I think we all understand that it's legally okay for Nissan to do this, but morally it's reprehensible to have 8% of your battery life bars equate to a n 20% loss!

With the 24kwh batteries, Nissan had already burned a considerable amount of goodwill getting us to accept that the first bar represented a 15% loss, and 4 bars were actually under 70%. The new downward revision doesn't just remove the scab of the old wound, but digs out a fresh gash of customer trust that made me rescind recommending the leaf to people I know! Heck, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only who won't consider the leaf2 if it has the same "indicator bar" wording in its warranty. So it's really NOT FAIR, for both sides.

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15% for the first bar is generous. Mine did not drop the first bur until I was at 61.68 Ahr if 100% is 82Ahr then that puts me at 25% lost at first bar.

If the manufacturer DOESN'T tell you differently, you have the right to believe that the battery loss bars are linear. Furthermore, the 12 large bars for state of charge are roughly linear. You would expect both sets of bars to act similarly since the layout of both is the same. Nissan is being disingenuous at best and committing fraud and deception otherwise. Nowhere in my manual does it state that the battery capacity bars are nonlinear or that a 4 bar loss is anything other than a 1/3 loss. If my battery drops below 66% anytime in the first 100,000 mi. I expect them to replace it. If they don't want to, I'll file complaints with the state attorney and Dept of Motor Vehicles. I don't know if California's Lemon law applies here, but if it does I'll file there as well.

Nissan should step up and settle this before it becomes a public relations nightmare. Once they get a reputation for early battery failures in two model lines and a reputation for not dealing with the issue it will become much harder to sell any EV they manufacture. Nissan's history of failing to deal with manufacturing defects will infect their entire line.

IANAL and I presume that Nissan that a cadre. That said, reaching a legal settlement in 2012 that (I think ?) included wording that clarified that 4 bar loss is about equal to 35% loss became a Nissan norm for the next 4 years. Changing it without notifying the consumer is NOT going to go over well in the court of public opinion and I'm not even sure that Nissan will win in arbitration.

While our LEAF serves us very well, I find Nissan's corporate decisions and ethics towards the consumer to be simply unacceptable. As an outside observer (meaning not invested in the company) I think Nissan is playing with fire in the EV market.

SageBrush said:

IANAL and I presume that Nissan that a cadre. That said, reaching a legal settlement in 2012 that (I think ?) included wording that clarified that 4 bar loss is about equal to 35% loss became a Nissan norm for the next 4 years. Changing it without notifying the consumer is NOT going to go over well in the court of public opinion and I'm not even sure that Nissan will win in arbitration.

While our LEAF serves us very well, I find Nissan's corporate decisions and ethics towards the consumer to be simply unacceptable. As an outside observer I think Nissan is playing with fire in the EV market.

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Is the bolt warranty specifics any different?
I think all EV manufactures should include a kWh usable gauge at the minimum .

ElectricEddy said:

SageBrush said:

IANAL and I presume that Nissan that a cadre. That said, reaching a legal settlement in 2012 that (I think ?) included wording that clarified that 4 bar loss is about equal to 35% loss became a Nissan norm for the next 4 years. Changing it without notifying the consumer is NOT going to go over well in the court of public opinion and I'm not even sure that Nissan will win in arbitration.

While our LEAF serves us very well, I find Nissan's corporate decisions and ethics towards the consumer to be simply unacceptable. As an outside observer I think Nissan is playing with fire in the EV market.

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Is the bolt warranty specifics any different?
I think all EV manufactures should include a kWh usable gauge at the minimum .

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I don't follow GM much at all, but if memory serves me the Bolt has a percentage capacity warranty.

LEAF UK has a degradation warranty for the 30 kWh model:
25%, also called 9 bars

https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/battery-performance.html

ElectricEddy said:

Is the bolt warranty specifics any different?
I think all EV manufactures should include a kWh usable gauge at the minimum .

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Yes, it specifically sets 40% loss or less as "normal", so if you're down to 59% of original capacity, the warranty should apply. See the GM manual link from this article: https://electrek.co/2016/12/07/gm-chevy-bolt-ev-battery-degradation-up-to-40-warranty/

SageBrush said:

LEAF UK has a degradation warranty for the 30 kWh model:
25%, also called 9 bars

https://www.nissan.co.uk/vehicles/new-vehicles/leaf/battery-performance.html

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Thanks for that reference. I've saved it to http://archive.org/web/.

A quick peek at the '13 and '16 Leaf warranty booklet about battery capacity warranty only refers to bars and not about % at all. Nor does it give any sort of mapping as to what 8 or 9 bars represents.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=13192 says

(Note: For 2013 LEAF owners, this coverage was part of your battery warranty at purchase, and is outlined in your warranty information booklet.)
...
In addition to the existing lithium-ion battery coverage provided under the Nissan Electric Vehicle Limited Warranty for defects in materials or workmanship, the lithium-ion battery for your 2011 or 2012 Nissan LEAF is now also warranted against capacity loss below nine (9) bars (or approximately below 70 percent) as shown on the vehicle’s battery capacity level gauge for a period of 60 months or 60,000 miles, whichever comes first.

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Maybe you guys can tell me what this means. I have a 2016 Leaf (built 10/2015, first registered July 2016), which I purchased from Arizona (!) in June 2017 with just under 5,000 miles. It lost its first bar after I gave it its first charge. I checked LeafSpy and it was at 80%. Dealer did compensate me for the loss of the first bar, which was nice.

3 months later, I'm now at 72%, and I'm scheduled to take it into the dealer next week to give it a proper scan. Curious as to why I haven't lost a second bar yet, as by what I can tell, I should be close to losing a third bar.

Here's where it is today:



And here's where it was shortly after I got it in early June:



Thoughts?

VAB5 said:

Thoughts?

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Does your LEAF have a 30 kWh battery? I assume so since you are posting in this thread (and since it lost a bar already with those numbers.

It seems clear to me that your BMS was reset prior to the vehicle being sold to you. Still, it's pretty amazing how much capacity has been lost already. It seems the NMC chemistry loses capacity even faster than the older LEAF battery chemistry.

RegGuheert said:

VAB5 said:

Thoughts?

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Does your LEAF have a 30 kWh battery? I assume so since you are posting in this thread (and since it lost a bar already with those numbers.

It seems clear to me that your BMS was reset prior to the vehicle being sold to you. Still, it's pretty amazing how much capacity has been lost already. It seems the NMC chemistry loses capacity even faster than the older LEAF battery chemistry.

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Yes--30 kWh. So, is BMS reset as a matter of routine, or would someone reset it to hide something? In other words, why would a BMS be reset? And who can reset it?

VAB5 said:

So, is BMS reset as a matter of routine, or would someone reset it to hide something? In other words, why would a BMS be reset? And who can reset it?

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It is not routine. There are some service procedures which call for a reset, such as replacing the battery pack or the BMS. The command is called "GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS DATA CLEAR" and can be done by Nissan dealers.

On June 19, 2012, I predicted that the BMS reset would be used to hide capacity loss from unsuspecting buyers:

RegGuheert on June 19 said:

One more thought on this: I'm wondering if the LI-ION GRADUAL CAPACITY LOSS DATA CLEAR command discussed on page EVC-107 of the Nissan LEAF service manual resets lost capacity bars if it is executed on a car with an older battery.

If so, then I suspect some unscrupulous sellers will reset that just as some do with odometers today. The manual says it is only to be executed in the case of the installation of a new battery or a new battery controller, but that won't stop some people.

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My guess is that your dealer reset the BMS to make your LEAF appear to have more capacity than it really did at the time of your purchase.

RegGuheert said:

My guess is that your dealer reset the BMS to make your LEAF appear to have more capacity than it really did at the time of your purchase.

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Is there any way to prove that?

Would LeafSpy provide evidence?

VAB5 said:

RegGuheert said:

My guess is that your dealer reset the BMS to make your LEAF appear to have more capacity than it really did at the time of your purchase.

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Is there any way to prove that?

Would LeafSpy provide evidence?

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I don't know the answer to your questions, but I suspect the car keeps a record of when the BMS was last reset. If so, you might be able to show that it was done while in the possession of the dealership.

According to OP, LeafSpy reported 80% capacity after the first charge from purchase. That is not reset behavior.
This is just a battery losing capacity, fast.

Warranty will kick in when the 9th bar is lost. No one outside Nissan knows what SoC that will be. My guess (I emphasize GUESS) is around 42 Ahr, the same as the 24 kWh battery models.

I've been seeing evidence on a few threads showing that the first bar loss happens around the 80% mark on the 30kwh leafs versus 85% on the 24kwh leafs. So I don't think it was a BMS reset either.

... Deleted because DUP.

berclese said:

samrovner said:

berclese said:

UPDATE: Of course, Nissan says my 66% SOH battery is doing great at one year of service. The battery information sheet is worthless as it just rates your use of charging and driving usage, presumably from the Nissan Connect data. It also shows the bars left in a graph, nothing we don't already know. No data on SOH, kWh or projected range.

The service rep said 20-25% capacity loss in the first year is average. I hope the loss is going to slow this year. This car is going to become worthless to me if the range gets much worse.

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You and I are in the same boat, and I was hoping you were going to have better news today. I'm in Phoenix too, and this is my second LEAF. My 2013 SV didn't degrade like this at all. I agree with you about the car becoming worthless, and can't imagine what the range will be like when I finally lose my 4th bar. I read an article last night about contacting Nissan's Customer Support to start documenting this early, just to avoid headaches when it finally does qualify for replacement. I plan on calling them later today or tomorrow. Have you reached out to them yet?

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I am under the suspicion that Nissan may have moved the SOH/capacity bar relationship for the 30 kWh battery. My car will likely drop it's second bar very soon. Have you taken your car in for the yearly battery check? That may help you in the long run (no pun intended). I have not contacted customer service. Please let us know how that goes.

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UPDATE: I lost the second bar today. 237 GIDs AHr= 51.85 SOH= 65% HX= 65.88% 5899 miles.