2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

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DSM needs a new entry: VAD
Volt Anxiety Disorder, characterized by anti-social behavior brought on by a general apathy toward the owner's car choice.
 
powersurge said:
Reading this has been like reading a Hillary vs trump festival.

So now our country is divided into an EV vs PHEV. Will this country survive?

Not so much EV vs PHEV as Prius Prime vs. anything else.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I think the Prime will serve the EV community the same way the Prius and then the PIP did: by functioning as a 'gateway drug' to electric driving.
That has most certainly been true for me.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I think the Prime will serve the EV community the same way the Prius and then the PIP did: by functioning as a 'gateway drug' to electric driving.

The Prime and The Volt offer local EV commuting ability with the ability to drive in non-electric friendly areas of the country.

If the Prime would have come out in 2011 with the solar option I might own one today due to its storage space.

For those in a single car situation a PHEV continues to be much more workable since most areas in flyover country have no usable charging infrastructure. (A single QC 5 miles from my house but not along my trip or destination is useless to me) out west EVs are too cumbersome even if I had a Tesla, when I've tried to visit chargers out there they are usually down or in one case, listed but not open to the public (no Yellowstone really doesn't have charge infrastructure contrary to what some may say)

The Volt despite its stated MSRP can usually be had for less $$$ than a Prime or even a PIP.

Mathematical as one guy above mentioned you have to do your own numbers, I'm averaging 45mpg gas only and 60.2 miles ev range per charge over the 48,000 mile life of my car thus far.

The real up front cost is very important, I found a used volt for $3990, I almost got one for my folks.
Same goes for older leafs, at $4000 they make a good local transit option.

On the twice weekly 100ish mile trip I listed I'm running a lower energy use than said Prime on a 90 mile trip.

Because I care about efficiency I drive probably more effiently than most leaf owners here. I likely beat their range on battery some days as well.

I strongly believe in using the tools you already have to the fullest.

But I also own a Honda Insight that gets driven in non-Volt friendly conditions and takes the salt on some days while the Volt is garaged. Gotta use the right tool for the job.

I am looking to make that one plug in also though.

I guess if truthful is anti social
I'm gonna have to be anti social

The right car for the job depends on the job
 
rmay635703 said:
On the twice weekly 100ish mile trip I listed I'm running a lower energy use than said Prime on a 90 mile trip.
Nah.

You just have to look at the MPGe of each car to know that is quite unlikely.
I suspect you at a minimum are ignoring your electricity related pollution.

To recap: I use 6.3 kWh of electricity from the wall and ~ 0.8 G of petrol for 90 miles.
Turn this e.g. into CO2e presuming 25 lbs CO2 per gallon and 1.5 pounds CO2 per kWh*
The Prime over 90 miles works out to 25*0.8 + 6.3*1.5 = 29.45 CO2 pounds

We can also go through this exercise for Nox and Sox but you will *really* not like the results.


*My electricity is from my home PV, but I can still calculate as if I used grid electricity since any amount I do not use offsets dirty electricity elsewhere. 1.5 pounds CO2e per kWh is ~ national grid average and corresponds to half NG, half coal.
 
I used .5553 gallons of gas
And 12kwhr from the wall to go
Over 99 miles

So I guess pretending that the local hydro which exports energy to many communities doesn't exist we come in at

0.5553 x 25lbs + 12kwhr (at wall) x 1.5 = 31.88 lbs of CO2

0.32 lbs per mile Volt
0.327 lbs per mile Prius

Interesting, so twice a week we're at par assuming I'm coal fired.

Then during the week when I'm 100% EV I beat you at .25lbs per mile again omitting the fact my area is a net exporter of hydro energy.
 
LeftieBiker said:
I think the Prime will serve the EV community the same way the Prius and then the PIP did: by functioning as a 'gateway drug' to electric driving.


+1


I started out with a 2011 Volt and got really addicted to the silky smooth, quiet electric drive! I hated it when the ICE would kick in, would wreck the whole driving experience for me. It's almost like a drug, you end up wanting more all electric range, at least that's what happened to me. I found myself treating it like a 35 - 42 mile range BEV as I would try so hard to not use the ICE. I now have a Leaf and couldn't be happier! All my driving/commuting is 100% electric drive now, no more noisy vibrating ICE to wreck the driving experience. I guess I'm an "all or nothing" kind of guy! Too me a PHEV or EREV is like having a 4K Ultra HDTV but half the time you're forced to watch standard definition 480i content on it!
 
Funny you should mention that, a guy at my work would do that with his Prius. This was back when I first got my Volt, he stopped me one day and wanted to know what it's like having EV drive. Of course I told him how awesome it is and that I was addicted to it!
 
Please start a separate thread to continue this topic, and leave the current thread to discuss Prime Vs LEAF

rmay635703 said:
I used .5553 gallons of gas
And 12kwhr from the wall to go
Over 99 miles

0.5553 x 25lbs + 12kwhr (at wall) x 1.5 = 31.88 lbs of CO2
Something about your numbers is not adding up.
12 kWh from the wall is at most 11 kWh in the battery.*
If you traveled 60 miles on EV, that is 5.5 miles a kWh
The remaining 40 miles of HV using 0.55 gallons is then 72 mpg

These do not look like reproducible numbers in a Volt unless undisclosed, atypical driving and/or conditions are present.
Strong tailwinds or unsafe truck drafting comes to mind as possibilities.

*Gen 1 Volt ?
IIRC 10.6 kWh usable in the battery is 12 - 13 kWh from the wall, although I cannot remember if that is L1 or L2
 
SageBrush said:
rmay635703 said:
I used .5553 gallons of gas
And 12kwhr from the wall to go
Over 99 miles

0.5553 x 25lbs + 12kwhr (at wall) x 1.5 = 31.88 lbs of CO2
Something about your numbers is not adding up.
12 kWh from the wall is at most 11 kWh in the battery.
If you traveled 60 miles on EV, that is 5.5 miles a kWh
The remaining 40 miles of HV using 0.55 gallons is then 72 mpg

These do not look like reproducible numbers in a Volt unless undisclosed, atypical driving and/or conditions are present.
Assuming someone's goal is to use the least amount of gas possible and thus reduce emissions from same, using EPA numbers to eliminate individual variation (as always YMMV, and some will do a lot better or worse, which applies to BOTH cars), the Prime uses less gas than a 2011-2012 Volt anytime you drive it 66 miles or more between charges, assuming both cars start fully charged. Note: I use the EPA Hwy rating for the Prime for gas miles, rather than combined or city, and either EPA Hwy or what a large number of people have reported getting (forget which) for the Volt 1, as I couldn't find the EPA HWY rating for it off-hand. 40 mpg is either equal or greater than the EPA number.

25+ 53X = 35 +40x

53X = 10 +40X

13X = 10

X = 10/13 = 0.769238

Substituting for X, at 66 miles or more between charges the Prime will burn less gas than the Volt. In 2013 the Volt's AER increased to 38 miles, making X = 1.0 and the crossover distance for the Prime to use less gas between charges becomes 78 miles. It's 160 miles for the Prime over the Volt 2.
 
On the topic of the relative salability of the Prime, here's an article from IEVS today:
Nearly 103,000 Plug-In EVs Sold Worldwide In August, Toyota Prius Prime On Top
https://insideevs.com/nearly-103000-plug-in-evs-sold-worldwide-in-august-almost-a-new-record/

The Prime comes in first at 35,109, followed by the LEAF at 33,455 and the Model S at 31,630. I expect to see both the first two ramp up considerably, the Prime due to increased inventory and the LEAF due to the 2nd Gen's arrival.
 
GRA said:
Assuming someone's goal is to use the least amount of gas possible and thus reduce emissions from same,
If the question is emissions then it does not make sense to ignore emissions from electricity.

The archetypal Volt owner as on display at their website forum ignores emissions, is often a climate change denialist, ignores electricity use, and will only discuss petroleum use. Oh, and typically refrains from mentioning the GM SUV they own and drive on long trips or when they are towing a boat en-route to polluting some lake. Mention Nox and ~ 90% of them will not have a clue what you are talking about. Only a handful will have any awareness of their local electric power plant energy mix and emission profile.

The car represents their priorities well, which as a fair generalization boils down to being anti-OPEC/pro "domestic" car and energy but otherwise ignorant -- and proud of it.
 
Any problem with putting the Volt in a separate thread !?
GRA said:
It's 160 miles for the Prime over the Volt 2.

You have an algebraic error.

In addition, your highway assumptions are wrong. Here is the correct data for the 2017 volt
https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=37789&flag=1
Page 27 is the Highway EV
46.7 miles using 16.76 kWh from the wall on L2

Page 22 is Highway gasoline
40.8 mpg*

So the correct calc for your break-even petroleum use is
25+53x = 46.7 + 40.8x
12.2x = 21.7
x = 1.778688525
miles = 25+53*1.778688525 = 119.27

However ...
An additional 10.46 kWh is consumed by the Volt compared to the Prime in those 119 miles
A prime can travel 25*10.46/6.3 = 41.5 EV miles on those kwh so the correct calc after adjustment for equal kWh use would be
(25+41.5) +53x = 46.7 +40.8x
12.2x = -19.8
The conclusion should be obvious ... and in fact mirrors the differences between the cars in MPGe, as expected.


Just for fun
Let's say I didn't hate GM, and would have considered a Volt for my 90 mile commute
Volt:
46.7 miles in EV using 16.76 kwh, then 43.3 miles using gasoline at 40.8 mpg so 1.06 gallons
Prime:
66.5 miles in EV using the same 16.7 kWh, then 23.5 miles at 53 mpg so 0.4434 gallons
Or if we ignore the discrepant electricity consumption, the Prime consumes 65/53 = 1.226 gallons


See the issue ? The Volt is only competitive with the Prime if electricity consumption is ignored ... which is retarded.

*raw data is discounted 30% to arrive at Monroney values
 
I think there is a lot of truth to the 'gateway drug' analogy.

Our first dipping of the toe into these waters was a Toyota hybrid. While that did not give us any meaningful EV driving, it warmed us up to the benefits of adopting these newer technologies and gave us comfort that companies like Toyota were deploying these techs in very reliable cars that provided good value. That experience made it easier for us to give the BEV and PHEV models available at the time (mid 2013) a try. We liked several of the options but decided on the Leaf. Now I'm mostly only interested in PHEV or BEV for future purchases as I'm fairly well hooked.

I think shifting the general population from ICE will go faster with good intermediary steps that serve as gateway drugs. Grant exposure to the benefits of BEV while addressing the range anxiety at a reasonable price point. And as some have noted, cars like the Prime are providing very good value for the consumers for whom they work well. Some will be able to make the leap to a BEV, often thanks to having more than one car that can help with the concept of the sometimes needed longer range. But many in one car situations will need that gateway drug.
 
SageBrush said:
Any problem with putting the Volt in a separate thread !?
GRA said:
It's 160 miles for the Prime over the Volt 2.

You have an algebraic error.

In addition, your highway assumptions are wrong. Here is the correct data for the 2017 volt
https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=37789&flag=1
Page 27 is the Highway EV
46.7 miles using 16.76 kWh from the wall on L2

Page 22 is Highway gasoline
40.8 mpg*

So the correct calc for your break-even petroleum use is
25+53x = 46.7 + 40.8x
12.2x = 21.7
x = 1.778688525
miles = 25+53*1.778688525 = 119.27

However ...
An additional 10.46 kWh is consumed by the Volt compared to the Prime in those 119 miles
A prime can travel 25*10.46/6.3 = 41.5 EV miles on those kwh so the correct calc after adjustment for equal kWh use would be
(25+41.5) +53x = 46.7 +40.8x
12.2x = -19.8
The conclusion should be obvious ... and in fact mirrors the differences between the cars in MPGe, as expected.


Just for fun
Let's say I didn't hate GM, and would have considered a Volt for my 90 mile commute
Volt:
46.7 miles in EV using 16.76 kwh, then 43.3 miles using gasoline at 40.8 mpg so 1.06 gallons
Prime:
66.5 miles in EV using the same 16.7 kWh, then 23.5 miles at 53 mpg so 0.4434 gallons
Or if we ignore the discrepant electricity consumption, the Prime consumes 65/53 = 1.226 gallons


See the issue ? The Volt is only competitive with the Prime if electricity consumption is ignored ... which is retarded.

*raw data is discounted 30% to arrive at Monroney values



Ok so let's say it is 119 miles.......how often do people drive 119 miles or more on a daily basis? So for most the Gen 2 Volt will be more efficient and use less gas then the Prime!

Why even split hairs over which car is more efficient when in EV mode?! Driving on electric is pennies on the dollar per mile for most of us anyway. If both cars are charged using renewable energy source then it doesn't even matter!

Not only that.........

- The Volt is much more fun car to drive than the slower accelerating Prius Prime.

-Toyota has skimped on the amount of batteries 8.8 kWH vs 18.4 kWH (Volt), less battery range 25 miles vs 53 mile(Volt)

-The cooling system of the Prius Prime batteries is cheapo passive air like that of Nissan Leaf so expect more troubles with battery degradation while the Volt’s batteries (with TMS) with over 7 years on the road have suffered very little degradation.

-The Prime has less powerful electric motors than the Volt’s dual electric motors leaves it well behind when accelerating and merging.

-Toyota Prius Prime is not as planted as the Volt in terms of agility and turning.

-The cabin in Prius Prime is noisier than the Volt when driven in an average California freeways. The Prius feels like it is made of cheapo econobox plastic materials.


Well, the price difference explains it all. You get what you pay for. After the Federal Tax Credits and State Rebates, you’ll get the Volt at a net of less than $24,000 if you’re in California.
 
Do you Volt fanatics really want to be filtered? Yes, the Volt probably should have been included in the topic, but it wasn't. Feel free to start a Volt vs Prime Ultimate Fighting topic...
 
SageBrush said:
Any problem with putting the Volt in a separate thread !?
GRA said:
It's 160 miles for the Prime over the Volt 2.

You have an algebraic error.

In addition, your highway assumptions are wrong. Here is the correct data for the 2017 volt
https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=37789&flag=1
Page 27 is the Highway EV <snip>
I'm not seeing the numbers you quote on page 27. On page 26 it shows 43.6 mpg for a test labeled SC03, and on 28 it shows the 46.7 you mention for CD highway, but I'm not sure if that's the offical EPA highway number, as I believe they also include US06 into the mix for that and then round. I'm going to try and find the official range numbers they released - I think IEVS included them.
 
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