2018 Nissan Leaf vs Toyota Prius Prime

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EVdriver4life said:
Why even split hairs over which car is more efficient when in EV mode?! Driving on electric is pennies on the dollar per mile for most of us anyway. If both cars are charged using renewable energy source then it doesn't even matter!

Some EV owners pay 25 - 40 cents per kWh for grid electricity. If the car is inefficient some of them buy gasoline instead.

That is not my situation. I want my car to reduce the pollution I am causing when I drive to work
Compared to the Prime, the Volt leads to 39% more CO2 emissions,
265% more Nox and Sox emissions

My old Honda Fit is superior to the Volt in these aspects.

I have PV. It is no excuse to be wasteful since generation I do not use reduces local power plant generation to serve a neighbor.
 
Does anyone besides me see the pic of my dash attached in my previous post? (which is usually saying I used 3% more fuel than measured at the pump)
SageBrush said:
Mention Nox and ~ 90% of them will not have a clue what you are talking about. Only a handful will have any awareness of their local electric power plant energy mix and emission profile.

Based on supply side factors including incidentals at the refinery
The creation and delivery of A gallon of gasoline to your station adds up to 100 grams of NOx per gallon into the environment.

Even the Bay Area refineries make 13x more pollution than expected levels despite being atypical "advanced" refineries.
The mathematical only approach (guessing) to refinery pollution has failed but despite folks measuring output at stacks raising the red flag even the Bay Area is crippled politically to address the main source of pollution in the bay (which is not vehicles)

Few people are aware of the extreme pollution levels created during extraction, refining, storage and transport of fuel.

Hence why being more efficient outweighs many consumer side pollution metrics.
 
SageBrush said:
EVdriver4life said:
Why even split hairs over which car is more efficient when in EV mode?! Driving on electric is pennies on the dollar per mile for most of us anyway. If both cars are charged using renewable energy source then it doesn't even matter!

Some EV owners pay 25 - 40 cents per kWh for grid electricity. If the car is inefficient some of them buy gasoline instead.

That is not my situation. I want my car to reduce the pollution I am causing when I drive to work
Compared to the Prime, the Volt leads to 39% more CO2 emissions,
265% more Nox and Sox emissions

My old Honda Fit is superior to the Volt in these aspects.

I have PV. It is no excuse to be wasteful since generation I do not use reduces local power plant generation to serve a neighbor.


Again you're splitting hairs about the difference in efficiency when both cars are in EV mode. It doesn't matter anyway because the slight efficiency gained with the Prime in EV mode is offset by it using more gas then what a typical Volt driver uses. Most people drive less then 119 miles per day, Volt will use less gas as it has twice the electric range of the Prime, Volt wins hands down for the majority of owners.

Not only that, the more electric miles driven the better as far as pollution is concerned. Doesn't really matter that the Prime get's a better MPG rating when using gas since that's what causes the MOST pollution.
 
rmay635703 said:
The creation and delivery of A gallon of gasoline to your station adds up to 100 grams of NOx per gallon into the environment.
"Up to" is always a red flag, but do you have references ?
 
EVdriver4life said:
SageBrush said:
EVdriver4life said:
Why even split hairs over which car is more efficient when in EV mode?! Driving on electric is pennies on the dollar per mile for most of us anyway. If both cars are charged using renewable energy source then it doesn't even matter!

Some EV owners pay 25 - 40 cents per kWh for grid electricity. If the car is inefficient some of them buy gasoline instead.

That is not my situation. I want my car to reduce the pollution I am causing when I drive to work
Compared to the Prime, the Volt leads to 39% more CO2 emissions,
265% more Nox and Sox emissions

My old Honda Fit is superior to the Volt in these aspects.

I have PV. It is no excuse to be wasteful since generation I do not use reduces local power plant generation to serve a neighbor.


Again you're splitting hairs about the difference in efficiency when both cars are in EV mode. It doesn't matter anyway because the slight efficiency gained with the Prime in EV mode is offset by it using more gas then what a typical Volt driver uses. Most people drive less then 119 miles per day, Volt will use less gas as it has twice the electric range of the Prime, Volt wins hands down for the majority of owners.

Not only that, the more electric miles driven the better as far as pollution is concerned. Doesn't really matter that the Prime get's a better MPG rating when using gas since that's what causes the MOST pollution.
I apologize for confusing you with facts. Carry on.
 
SageBrush said:
rmay635703 said:
The creation and delivery of A gallon of gasoline to your station adds up to 100 grams of NOx per gallon into the environment.
"Up to" is always a red flag, but do you have references ?

https://www.citepa.org/old/forums/egtei/petroleum_refineries_250204.pdf

uc


The table cannot be read directly ...
Some refineries produce their own steam and electricity for process inputs. The inputs are ~ 18% of the source oil energy content.
If NG is the main input fuel then Nox and Sox emissions approach zero
This table (I think) is based on heavy oil feedstock. A GJ is ~ 277 kWh. 33.7 kWh in a gallon
So 18 gram of Nox emissions per 8.22/0.18 = 45.6 gallons of refined petroleum

Compare to Nox emissions related to electricity production from coal.
 
SageBrush said:
EVdriver4life said:
SageBrush said:
Some EV owners pay 25 - 40 cents per kWh for grid electricity. If the car is inefficient some of them buy gasoline instead.

That is not my situation. I want my car to reduce the pollution I am causing when I drive to work
Compared to the Prime, the Volt leads to 39% more CO2 emissions,
265% more Nox and Sox emissions

My old Honda Fit is superior to the Volt in these aspects.

I have PV. It is no excuse to be wasteful since generation I do not use reduces local power plant generation to serve a neighbor.


Again you're splitting hairs about the difference in efficiency when both cars are in EV mode. It doesn't matter anyway because the slight efficiency gained with the Prime in EV mode is offset by it using more gas then what a typical Volt driver uses. Most people drive less then 119 miles per day, Volt will use less gas as it has twice the electric range of the Prime, Volt wins hands down for the majority of owners.

Not only that, the more electric miles driven the better as far as pollution is concerned. Doesn't really matter that the Prime get's a better MPG rating when using gas since that's what causes the MOST pollution.
I apologize for confusing you with facts. Carry on.


The problem is you don't have your facts right. Sure, in your situation the Prime produces less pollution but that's not the case for the majority of drivers.

If someone had a daily round trip commute of 40 miles (without destination charging) they wouldn't burn any gas at all in the gen 2 Volt. If they had the Prime they would be burning gas every day. This scenario will the case for a MAJORITY of drivers, hence why I said the Volt 2 is more efficient overall.

Sorry but it's totally false that burning gas produces less pollution then what an EV does running off battery power. You can try and point out worse case scenarios all day long to TRY and prove your point. The fact is that the grid is getting cleaner and cleaner every year in the U.S. so it would be EXTREMELY unusual case where someone running an EV is producing more pollution then someone burning gas in their Prius. As the years go by and the grid gets cleaner in this country you will even see less such unusual cases. So yes.............the more EV miles driven in this country THE BETTER for our environment.

You want proof?..............here you go!

http://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953


Here is a direct quote from the article:

EVs are now driving cleaner than ever before. Driving an average EV results in lower global warming emissions than driving a gasoline car that gets 50 miles per gallon (MPG) in regions covering two-thirds of the U.S. population, up from 45 percent in our 2012 report.
 
I think the whole 'Volt is better than the Prime' or vice versa argument is ridiculous. Each is better than the other in certain conditions, and depending on your personal needs and priorities you can chose whichever one best suits you. If your top priority is the lowest price, then the Prime is going to win. If you place a high value on driving dynamics, then the Volt will. Depending on how far your routine daily driving is and how much you value being able to drive all of that (or more) electric, either may be right for you, and so on. Fortunately, we now have a decent selection of PEVs to choose from, so the odds that you can find one that is a good match for your needs and priorities are reasonably good.

No car's perfect, and until we can each design our own car and have it 3-D printed (delivered to us overnight), perfect cars won't exist. All design decisions are a matter of compromise.

P.S. just as an indication of sales potential, here's a quote from an IEVS article about the effect of recently introduced rebates in New York state (which I also posted a link to in its own topic):
Interestingly, more than 40% of rebates were used to purchase the new Toyota Prius Prime model. The Chevrolet Bolt EV was responsible for 12%, while the Chevrolet Volt and the Ford Fusion Energi both for 10%. . . .
So, 25 mile or less AER PHEVs took 50+% of the rebates, a 53 mile AER PHEV took 10%, and what is currently the least expensive 200+ mile BEV took 12%. The remaining less than 28% were spread between 22 other car types.

P.P.S. Oh, for those who wish to argue whether running on grid-electric or gas results in fewer emissions, here's the most recent update I'm aware of: http://insideevs.com/us-ev-emissions/ As of the 2015 grid, there were still 12 states where an HEV was lower emission than a BEV. UCS has provided maps which break it down more by power provider: http://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953
 
I agree with you, local conditions of the grid and individual use profile matter. A lot

GRA said:
P.P.S. Oh, for those who wish to argue whether running on grid-electric or gas results in fewer emissions, here's the most recent update I'm aware of: http://insideevs.com/us-ev-emissions/ As of the 2015 grid, there were still 12 states where an HEV was lower emission than a BEV. UCS has provided maps which break it down more by power provider: http://blog.ucsusa.org/rachael-nealer/gasoline-vs-electric-global-warming-emissions-953
This is a good study, and worth reading. Not the blog, the actual study. Go to the source.

The "midsize" EV was a Nissan LEAF rated at 300 Wh/mile
The "midsize" ICE was an amalgam 29 mpg car
Since the LEAF worked out to have about 50% less CO2 emissions than the "midsize ICE", it follows that it equals a 58 mpg ICE car as a national average.

A Volt is rated at 350 Wh/mile in EV mode, so it follows that it equals a (30/35)*58 = 49 mpg car in EV mode, and ~ 41 mpg in ICE mode
In Colorado where I live, a Volt in EV mode using the grid is matched by a (30/35)*35 = 30 mpg ICE car

A Prime is rated at 250 Wh/mile in EV mode, so it follows that it equals (30/25)*58 = 70 mpg car in EV mode, and 54 mpg in ICE mode
In Colorado where I live, a Prime in EV mode using the grid is matched by a (30/25)*35 = 42 mpg ICE car

So, in the great Prime Vs Volt debate that few care about, the Volt is kicked to the curb. More importantly though is the lesson: a larger battery does not automatically imply less CO2 when comparing cars of similar size, let alone less tailpipe criteria emissions like Nox or Sox. Specifics matter. Like car efficiency.
 
EVdriver4life said:
If someone had a daily round trip commute of 40 miles (without destination charging) they wouldn't burn any gas at all in the gen 2 Volt. If they had the Prime they would be burning gas every day. This scenario will the case for a MAJORITY of drivers, hence why I said the Volt 2 is more efficient overall.
Efficiency refers to the fraction of useful work from an energy input. You are saying something different -- that a Volt uses less petrol in 40 miles than a Prime. That is not in dispute.

You mostly err, however, in thinking that a Volt traveling 40 miles (a very good case scenario for a Volt) in EV emits less CO2 than a Prime.
Using EPA:
The Volt will consume about 350 Wh/mile * 40 miles = 14 kWh of wall electricity
The Prime will consume about 6.3 kWh of wall electricity and 15/54 gallons of petrol
Using the CO2e equivalent of 25 pounds (11.34 Kg) per gallon petrol, the grid has to supply the Volt with electricity at no more than
(11.34*15/54)/7.7 = 0.41 Kg CO2/kWh. Go ahead, find the places in the US where that is true.
https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-dirty-is-your-states-electricity
 
SageBrush said:
EVdriver4life said:
If someone had a daily round trip commute of 40 miles (without destination charging) they wouldn't burn any gas at all in the gen 2 Volt. If they had the Prime they would be burning gas every day. This scenario will the case for a MAJORITY of drivers, hence why I said the Volt 2 is more efficient overall.
Efficiency refers to the fraction of useful work from an energy input. You are saying something different -- that a Volt uses less petrol in 40 miles than a Prime. That is not in dispute.

You mostly err, however, in thinking that a Volt traveling 40 miles (a very good case scenario for a Volt) in EV emits less CO2 than a Prime.
Using EPA:
The Volt will consume about 350 Wh/mile * 40 miles = 14 kWh of wall electricity
The Prime will consume about 6.3 kWh of wall electricity and 15/54 gallons of petrol
Using the CO2e equivalent of 25 pounds (11.34 Kg) per gallon petrol, the grid has to supply the Volt with electricity at no more than
(11.34*15/54)/7.7 = 0.41 Kg CO2/kWh. Go ahead, find the places in the US where that is true.
https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-dirty-is-your-states-electricity


Are you including the pollution generated with the whole process of getting the gas to the gas station (from oil in the ground to gas station and all steps in between)?

Seems we have a conflict of sources here, my source claims EVs in general pollute less than even a 50mpg hybrid in most states. I think I will stick with my source!

What you fail to realize is the grid will only get cleaner, there's a limit on how efficient any ICE can be, in the end electric propulsion will win in terms of efficiency and pollution. So why not start now? Why not go for the car with the bigger battery with more electric miles driven?!

It's not all about pollution anyway, aren't we supposed to be trying to reduce our dependencies on oil? Seems to me the best way to go about that is to drive more electric miles which is exactly what the Volt 2 does!
 
EVdriver4life said:
SageBrush said:
EVdriver4life said:
If someone had a daily round trip commute of 40 miles (without destination charging) they wouldn't burn any gas at all in the gen 2 Volt. If they had the Prime they would be burning gas every day. This scenario will the case for a MAJORITY of drivers, hence why I said the Volt 2 is more efficient overall.
Efficiency refers to the fraction of useful work from an energy input. You are saying something different -- that a Volt uses less petrol in 40 miles than a Prime. That is not in dispute.

You mostly err, however, in thinking that a Volt traveling 40 miles (a very good case scenario for a Volt) in EV emits less CO2 than a Prime.
Using EPA:
The Volt will consume about 350 Wh/mile * 40 miles = 14 kWh of wall electricity
The Prime will consume about 6.3 kWh of wall electricity and 15/54 gallons of petrol
Using the CO2e equivalent of 25 pounds (11.34 Kg) per gallon petrol, the grid has to supply the Volt with electricity at no more than
(11.34*15/54)/7.7 = 0.41 Kg CO2/kWh. Go ahead, find the places in the US where that is true.
https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/how-dirty-is-your-states-electricity


Are you including the pollution generated with the whole process of getting the gas to the gas station (from oil in the ground to gas station and all steps in between)?

Seems we have a conflict of sources here, my source claims EVs in general pollute less than even a 50mpg hybrid in most states. I think I will stick with my source!

What you fail to realize is the grid will only get cleaner, there's a limit on how efficient any ICE can be, in the end electric propulsion will win in terms of efficiency and pollution. So why not start now? Why not go for the car with the bigger battery with more electric miles driven?!

It's not all about pollution anyway, aren't we supposed to be trying to reduce our dependencies on oil? Seems to me the best way to go about that is to drive more electric miles which is exactly what the Volt 2 does!

Petrol is well to wheel, adjusted for tar sands;
Electricity is power-plant to wheels. I don't know how to account for mining and transport

Your UCS source uses a LEAF as the comparison vehicle. Read the full article. The volt is some 15% worse. Says so, right in your source, using the EPA data.

Reducing oil dependence is a very good thing, as is reducing GHG emissions and improving air quality. The Volt can do quite well for the first goal depending on how the car is used, does OK but inferior to the Prime in GHG, and does poorly when it comes to air pollution if your regional grid has a coal component.

And in even the area where the Volt is supposed to shine, it is a YMMV depending on use. It is common for Volt owners to also own an SUV for long distance driving. Their data is garbled since they do not include the SUV in their oil consumption. My long distance driver is my Prime; I use it for 90 mile work commutes and 250 (each way) mile trips. The 250 trips are ~ 32 times a year, and the work commuting is 130 times a year. It works out for oil consumption (according to EPA):
Long trips: 32 trips * 225 miles/trip / 54 mpg = 133 G
The work commutes: 130 trips * 65 miles/trip / 54 mpg = 156.5
For a total EPA oil use of 290 Gallons per year.

If these trips were in a Volt:
Long trips: 32 trips * 197 miles/trip / 41 mpg = 154 G
Work: 130 * 37 miles/trip * 41 mpg = 117.3
For a total EPA oil use of 271 Gallons a year

Volt advantage: ~ 19 Gallons a year

Electricity difference
Volt: 16.7 kwh/trip * 162 trips =2705.4 kWh
Prime: 6.3 kWh/trip * 162 trips =1020.6 kWh

Volt disadvantage: 1685 kWh

GHG
In my area a kWh is about 2 lbs of GHG emissions
A gallon is about 25 lbs of GHG emissions
Net, the Volt emits (1685*2) - (26*25) = 2720 lbs more per year CO2e

NOx and SOx
are each about a gram per kWh from my local power plant,
So the Volt emits about 1685 grams extra Nox and Sox per year.

Unsaid so far, but not to be disregarded:
The Prime is less money to buy. That money put into a PV array swings things wildly in favor of the Prime. All of my home electricity and EV miles are from my home PV, and excess is sent to my neighbors. How about you ?
 
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