Official Tesla Model 3 thread

webb14leafs said:

I don't qualify for the federal tax credit because I am too low income

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You don't pay $7,500 in taxes, but you can afford an $80,000 car???? I know this isn't a personal finance forum, but there's something wrong with this picture.

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He could be loaded like the Kennedys but not pay all that much tax, because we tax income, not wealth. There are people with net worth well into seven figures getting Obamacare subsidies. Lots to unpack there, but as you said that isn't the subject of this forum.

LTLFTcomposite said:

webb14leafs said:

I don't qualify for the federal tax credit because I am too low income

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You don't pay $7,500 in taxes, but you can afford an $80,000 car???? I know this isn't a personal finance forum, but there's something wrong with this picture.

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He could be loaded like the Kennedys but not pay all that much tax, because we tax income, not wealth. There are people with net worth well into seven figures getting Obamacare subsidies. Lots to unpack there, but as you said that isn't the subject of this forum.

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yeah, seen some pretty creative financing of Teslas. Nothing I would do. Its a car... not worth it. I have no issues stopping for a charge when I need it.

webb14leafs said:

You don't pay $7,500 in taxes, but you can afford an $80,000 car???? I know this isn't a personal finance forum, but there's something wrong with this picture.

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It is very common for retired people with savings to be in this situation. The only thing "wrong" with this picture is that the $7500 tax credit is not a point-of-sale rebate that's available to all. In terms of incentivizing EV purchases, a point-of-sale rebate would also be a more efficient use of federal funds because almost any would-be EV buyer will place greater value on an immediate price reduction as opposed to having to wait months for a tax refund.

In the case of dgpcolorado, I'd point out that he was comparing the possibility of buying a CPO Model S versus a new Model 3. These aren't $80,000 cars. More like $40-50K.

abasile said:

webb14leafs said:

You don't pay $7,500 in taxes, but you can afford an $80,000 car???? I know this isn't a personal finance forum, but there's something wrong with this picture.

Click to expand...

It is very common for retired people with savings to be in this situation. The only thing "wrong" with this picture is that the $7500 tax credit is not a point-of-sale rebate that's available to all. In terms of incentivizing EV purchases, a point-of-sale rebate would also be a more efficient use of federal funds because almost any would-be EV buyer will place greater value on an immediate price reduction as opposed to having to wait months for a tax refund.

In the case of dgpcolorado, I'd point out that he was comparing the possibility of buying a CPO Model S versus a new Model 3. These aren't $80,000 cars. More like $40-50K.

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You're correct. A CPO S75 (he wants a bigger battery than his S60) runs around $50K. A Model 3 with the bigger battery option would be close to the same. That doesn't make it much better.

A retired person who liquidates enough cash from their 401K or other investments to buy a $50K car will have to pay more than $7,500 dollars in taxes to do so. But I see your point. There are a number of scenarios that would make this feasible. None of them involve sound financial advice.

webb14leafs said:

abasile said:

webb14leafs said:

You don't pay $7,500 in taxes, but you can afford an $80,000 car???? I know this isn't a personal finance forum, but there's something wrong with this picture.

Click to expand...

It is very common for retired people with savings to be in this situation. The only thing "wrong" with this picture is that the $7500 tax credit is not a point-of-sale rebate that's available to all. In terms of incentivizing EV purchases, a point-of-sale rebate would also be a more efficient use of federal funds because almost any would-be EV buyer will place greater value on an immediate price reduction as opposed to having to wait months for a tax refund.

In the case of dgpcolorado, I'd point out that he was comparing the possibility of buying a CPO Model S versus a new Model 3. These aren't $80,000 cars. More like $40-50K.

Click to expand...

You're correct. A CPO S75 (he wants a bigger battery than his S60) runs around $50K. A Model 3 with the bigger battery option would be close to the same. That doesn't make it much better.

A retired person who liquidates enough cash from their 401K or other investments to buy a $50K car will have to pay more than $7,500 dollars in taxes to do so. But I see your point. There are a number of scenarios that would make this feasible. None of them involve sound financial advice.

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How remarkably arrogant of you! As abasile knows, I retired young at age 45 long ago -- I now do volunteer work -- and live on very little income by being thrifty; I have more experience with sound finances than most people. Low income = almost no federal tax credit. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the ability to afford a car from savings and investments. Buying and driving EVs certainly is a frivolous expense by any measure -- driving a beater used car is far more cost-effective -- but other people have more expensive hobbies than mine.

dgpcolorado said:

webb14leafs said:

abasile said:

It is very common for retired people with savings to be in this situation. The only thing "wrong" with this picture is that the $7500 tax credit is not a point-of-sale rebate that's available to all. In terms of incentivizing EV purchases, a point-of-sale rebate would also be a more efficient use of federal funds because almost any would-be EV buyer will place greater value on an immediate price reduction as opposed to having to wait months for a tax refund.

In the case of dgpcolorado, I'd point out that he was comparing the possibility of buying a CPO Model S versus a new Model 3. These aren't $80,000 cars. More like $40-50K.

Click to expand...

You're correct. A CPO S75 (he wants a bigger battery than his S60) runs around $50K. A Model 3 with the bigger battery option would be close to the same. That doesn't make it much better.

A retired person who liquidates enough cash from their 401K or other investments to buy a $50K car will have to pay more than $7,500 dollars in taxes to do so. But I see your point. There are a number of scenarios that would make this feasible. None of them involve sound financial advice.

Click to expand...

How remarkably arrogant of you! As abasile knows, I retired young at age 45 long ago -- I now do volunteer work -- and live on very little income by being thrifty; I have more experience with sound finances than most people. Low income = almost no federal tax credit. It has nothing whatsoever to do with the ability to afford a car from savings and investments. Buying and driving EVs certainly is a frivolous expense by any measure -- driving a beater used car is far more cost-effective -- but other people have more expensive hobbies than mine.

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So I would assume that you would be withdrawing $50K either from a savings account (which I would never recommend having that much money just sitting in a savings account) or a tax free return investment like a Roth IRA - this is the most plausible. Otherwise you would have to pay income tax on that $50K when you withdraw it, which would hence result in a tax burden above $7,500.

Now I'm just curious. It's just odd for someone who lives so frugally to buy such an expensive car. Not very mustachean of you.

To each their own. My immediate thoughts were that you inherited a ton of money and ignorantly left it sitting in a savings account and whittled it away by buying expensive cars. If you've managed to retire young - then more power to you.

webb14leafs said:

It's just odd for someone who lives so frugally to buy such an expensive car. Not very mustachean of you.

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A CPO Model S can actually be extremely frugal if you have the upfront cash. Should have very low depreciation, virtually no upkeep costs, and could even be $0 in energy costs if he lives close to a supercharger. Yes, a used Leaf is obviously much more frugal, but out of the question if he needs a vehicle for road trips.

A noted oddity of Tesla owners is that many have spent more on their cars than they ever would have otherwise, which totally belies concerns by Audi, Mercedes or BMW that market share was at their expense. There appear to be a lot of millionaire next door types in that mix who could afford any car they want but normally opt for more frugal choices, which probably accounts for their acquired wealth to a large extent. Tesla may be taking more market share from Honda and Kia than German luxury brands.

webb14leafs said:

So I would assume that you would be withdrawing $50K either from a savings account (which I would never recommend having that much money just sitting in a savings account) or a tax free return investment like a Roth IRA - this is the most plausible. Otherwise you would have to pay income tax on that $50K when you withdraw it, which would hence result in a tax burden above $7,500.

Now I'm just curious. It's just odd for someone who lives so frugally to buy such an expensive car. Not very mustachean of you.

To each their own. My immediate thoughts were that you inherited a ton of money and ignorantly left it sitting in a savings account and whittled it away by buying expensive cars. If you've managed to retire young - then more power to you.

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Like many people, I have a car loan. The interest rate is less than I earn on my investments. So, no need to pull the money from investments, and pay capital gains or income taxes on it, or deplete my Roth IRA.

If you think about it, it is the frugal folks who are able to afford expensive toys, if they so choose. I bought a LEAF back in 2011 because I wanted to support EVs and to drive on "sunpower." It was very expensive for the miles I drove it, given the massive depreciation, but it was fun. The used Tesla has had less depreciation and more miles, so it figures to be cheaper per mile overall. Kind of a surprise, that. For those with limited range needs, a used LEAF is a bargain. Typical new versus used car stuff.

Back in 2011 used EVs weren't an option. For those willing to wait, a CPO used Model 3 in two or three years figures to be a terrific cost-effective entry point into the EV market for many. Assuming that Tesla manages to pull off a successful Model 3 launch and production ramp-up. That remains to be seen.

dgpcolorado said:

... I bought a LEAF back in 2011 because I wanted to support EVs and to drive on "sunpower." It was very expensive for the miles I drove it, given the massive depreciation, but it was fun.

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Shouldn't have sold it when you dd, if you were concerned about cost per mile.

In fact, My 2011 has been less expensive to own than any comparable ICEV would have been over ~6.5 years, though an exact TOU calculation can only be done at resale.

="dgpcolorado"
The used Tesla has had less depreciation and more miles, so it figures to be cheaper per mile overall.

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Sorry, but I think you are delusional, even with the (unusual) state subsidy you received (right?) when you bought your S used.

Ask TSLA what it will give you as a trade in, or check actual selling prices, to see the continuing rapid depreciation of your Tesla.

New Ss and Xs cost most owners over a dollar or a mile in TCO, used ones and model 3s should be expected to do somewhat better.

A Leaf, new or used, should cost most owners 25% to 50% as much as any Tesla over similar miles driven, or time owned.

LTLFTcomposite said:

A noted oddity of Tesla owners is that many have spent more on their cars than they ever would have otherwise..,

Tesla may be taking more market share from Honda and Kia than German luxury brands.

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Both correct.

TSLA's production ramp-up happened to coincide with historic bubble in car loans, allowing just about anyone with a pulse to qualify for a ~$100k new car loan.

It will be interesting to see the price effects on used Tesla's in the future, when many owners may realize they are driving cars that they cannot afford, ~simultaneously...

Thread on-topic:

Falling car prices + subprime lending =

After years of Auto manufacturers increasing production and sales by increasing discounts delving ever-lower into the subprime market, It's now a buyer's market for both new and used cars...

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http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=23752#p490475

LTLFTcomposite said:

A noted oddity of Tesla owners is that many have spent more on their cars than they ever would have otherwise, which totally belies concerns by Audi, Mercedes or BMW that market share was at their expense. There appear to be a lot of millionaire next door types in that mix who could afford any car they want but normally opt for more frugal choices, which probably accounts for their acquired wealth to a large extent. Tesla may be taking more market share from Honda and Kia than German luxury brands.

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You sound like our dear president with those lies. Please show me sources that show that Tesla owners are spending anywhere close to those other owners on maintenance. Every single Tesla owner I know have spent literally $0 on upkeep, unless you count some occasional washer fluid. Please stop spreading lies. Have some integrity.

hyperionmark said:

LTLFTcomposite said:

A noted oddity of Tesla owners is that many have spent more on their cars than they ever would have otherwise, which totally belies concerns by Audi, Mercedes or BMW that market share was at their expense. There appear to be a lot of millionaire next door types in that mix who could afford any car they want but normally opt for more frugal choices, which probably accounts for their acquired wealth to a large extent. Tesla may be taking more market share from Honda and Kia than German luxury brands.

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You sound like our dear president with those lies. Please show me sources that show that Tesla owners are spending anywhere close to those other owners on maintenance. Every single Tesla owner I know have spent literally $0 on upkeep, unless you count some occasional washer fluid. Please stop spreading lies. Have some integrity.

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I was referring to the purchase :lol:

hyperionmark said:

Please show me sources that show that Tesla owners are spending anywhere close to those other owners on maintenance. Every single Tesla owner I know have spent literally $0 on upkeep, unless you count some occasional washer fluid. Please stop spreading lies. Have some integrity.

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I take it that you don't know much about your Tesla, much less it's required maintenance and costs which are some of the highest in the industry. I pity the person that becomes the next in line for your car given your zero maintenance stance.

Combine a Tesla's high maintenance costs with it's extremely high cost to insure, and a Tesla is definitely not for the buyer driven by aspirational desires. Compare a Tesla's cost to maintain with a LEAFs maintenance requirements and costs and it is easy to see which has a close to zero cost to maintain.

="hyperionmark"...Every single Tesla owner I know have spent literally $0 on upkeep...

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You must know a lot of people who buy ~100k cars and skip all the recommended maintenance.

...Here’s the new price structure for the maintenance plans:

Model S Rear Wheel Drive
Year-by-year service: $475 (1st yr) + $725 (2nd yr) + $475 (3rd yr) + $850 (4th yr) = $2,525
3-year Maintenance Plan*: $1,550 (1st-3rd yrs) + $850 (4th yr) = $2,400
4-year Maintenance Plan: $2,325
Model S All-Wheel Drive
Year-by-year service: $550 (1st yr) + $725 (2nd yr) + $475 (3rd yr) + $850 (4th yr) = $2,600
3-year Maintenance Plan*: $1,625 (1st-3rd yrs) + $850 (4th yr) = $2,475
4-year Maintenance Plan: $2,400
Model X

Year-by-year service: $625 (1st yr) + $825 (2nd yr) + $550 (3rd yr) + $975 (4th yr) = $2,975
3-year Maintenance Plan*: $1,850 (1st-3rd yrs) + $975 (4th yr) = $2,825
4-year Maintenance Plan: $2,750...

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https://electrek.co/2017/02/03/tesla-nodel-s-x-maintenance-plans/

And I guess Every single Tesla owner" never had to buy tires either, which are quite expensive and very short-lived, on all Tesla's?

You can find those costs for yourself.

Of course, it's after the warranty expires, that the TCO for a Tesla will really balloon...

Yes, I misspoke. I should have included obvious tire rotations.

Most people in the know don't buy the very overpriced maintenance package from Tesla.

I think I have maybe realized the real reason people on here hate Tesla much more than any other forum. You all paid a ton of money for your 84 mile range vehicle, which is probably now about 60 miles. Now, for not much more money you can purchase a 210 mile vehicle with a good charging infrastructure. It's sour grapes, pure and simple.

That, or the other obvious reason....you are a little jealous of the people that can afford Teslas. It's easy and popular to put down things that only rich folk can afford.

hyperionmark said:

Most people in the know don't buy the very overpriced maintenance package from Tesla.

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"in the Know" How can that be, Elon himself wrote this maintenance requirements. How could any one blasphemy that?

But only if that know is in the not.

But whether it is done or not, it is still has one of the highest costs to maintain of any premium sedan.

hyperionmark said:

I think I have maybe realized the real reason people on here hate Tesla much more than any other forum. You all paid a ton of money for your 84 mile range vehicle, which is probably now about 60 miles. Now, for not much more money you can purchase a 210 mile vehicle with a good charging infrastructure. It's sour grapes, pure and simple.

That, or the other obvious reason....you are a little jealous of the people that can afford Teslas. It's easy and popular to put down things that only rich folk can afford.

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Nope that's not it, because most of us were smart enough to know that you don't buy a Gen 1 technology of anything. Plus if you can get a product that satisfies 95% of your needs and a low price, why spend a unproportionally large additional amount for that extra 5%? What's the motivation? Could it be Ego or Vainty, or Narcissism, or to fill a void in ones life, or just plain insecurity? It just does not make good common dollars and cents sense to buy more than you need.

And since when is $6K a ton of money for 7 years and 100K use of a two new vehicles?

https://electrek.co/2017/10/11/tesla-model-3-first-used-listed-150000/