2013-2014 bar losers and capacity losses

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LeftieBiker said:
QCs may actually help battery health, BTW, if done when the pack is cool.

QCs to improve the reported numbers, but likely don't do anything to actually improve the battery.

Both high charge and high discharge rates matter, but both don't matter as much as the temperature.
 
My advice is to not go OCD on it. Sure, give it a little love but don't go extreme. Enjoy it as a normal car and drive it.
One of the original Forum members gave me this same advice in early 2013. I took it and am still loving driving my 2012 LEAF. It is a 2 bar loser with 36,000 miles. And it continues to meet 99% of my driving needs.
 
leafdriving said:
Hi everyone. I lost my first bar yesterday. Kinda bummed out since I didn’t expect it to happen so soon.
Here’s what I get from LeafSpy Lite:
AHr= 54.98 SOH= 84% SOC= 70.9% Hx= 81.09% 384.78V -0.45A odo= 23,798 3 QCs & 1417 L1/L2s

The build date is 10/13 and I bought it used in February of this year. I don’t drive much; I’ve only put 2900 miles on it since I bought it and I have to admit I baby the car. The car’s original owner lived in Cupertino, CA and I’m in east bay (SF bay area). I don’t know much else about the previous owner’s habits other than location and what LeafSpy provided me today. I also assume he always charged it to 100% since the “Long-life mode” was turned off when I got it.

Here are my habits: 80% mode on, usually keep the batter around 50%, occasionally get down to 15-20% remaining and then L1 charge it at the latest the next day, and never QC it.
We did have a pretty hot summer this year (hit over 110 a couple times) and I wasn’t able park the car in the shade. The highest I ever saw the battery temp was 7 bars and that was about 3 times.

I've read a lot of posts of folks who are in hot climates losing their first bar at much higher miles. Based on the info I’ve provided can any one shed some light on why I’ve probably lost my first bar already? I’m surprised given the build date, miles, almost no QCs, and the climate the car has spent it’s entire life. Part of me feels “it is what it is” but I can’t help but think that the battery is going to quickly degrade and I’ll hit under 9 bars soon after the warranty expires in 12/2018.

Thanks guys!

This is anecdotal, but I think L2 charging is better for the battery health than L1 charging (my 2013 was until I lost the first bar at 35k miles). And occasionally (monthly?) charging to 100% to re-balance the cells should also help.

But as the others have mentioned, just enjoy your leaf. It was meant to be driven.
 
I don't see why you think you will be down to 9 bars in late 2018. If your car is currently 4 years old, that means you're losing roughly 4% capacity per year. In 18 months you should still have 11 bars at that rate.

I just lost my first bar last week. 2014 (late 2013 build date) S with 22,000 miles and only 6 QCs. 84% SOH. It had 87% SOH when I bought it in April. I live in south Florida and the summers are long and brutal. Hopefully my degradation rate holds to about 5-6% per year. I drive 40 miles per day and also have free Level 2 charging at work, so I really only need about 30 miles of range.
 
Oct 12, 2017
Fourth bar finally dropped on the way home after running some errands. Plugged it in to charge and then took a reading. Appointment to start warranty replacement scheduled for 17 October 2017.

The vehicle was manufactured in January 2013, spent it first two years in Georgia, was auctioned after lease return and brought to Las Vegas. I got it in March 2015. It dropped the first bar in October 2015, the second bar in June 2016, the third bar in November 2016, and the fourth bar in October 2017.

Oct 12, 2017 - AHr=36.81, SOH=56%, Hx=49.75%, odo=25,670 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2242
Sep 15, 2017 - AHr=38.17, SOH=58%, Hx=51.70%, odo=25,517 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2176
Sep 15, 2017 - AHr=38.60, SOH=59%, Hx=51.70%, odo=25,517 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2175
Aug 12, 2017 - AHr=39.25, SOH=60%, Hx=53.34%, odo=25,451 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2119
May 15, 2017 - AHr=40.96, SOH=62%, Hx=55.96%, odo=25,169 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1989
Jan 09, 2017 - AHr=42.69, SOH=65%, Hx=58.59%, odo=24,787 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1874
Jun 24, 2016 - AHr=47.74, SOH=73%, Hx=66.57%, odo=23,745 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1569
Apr 24, 2016 - AHr=48.58, SOH=74%, Hx=68.12%, odo=23,323 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1478
Feb 23, 2016 - AHr=50.11, SOH=76%, Hx=70.96%, odo=22,874 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1393
Dec 30, 2015 - AHr=51.40, SOH=78%, Hx=73.35%, odo=22,503 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1302
Oct 11, 2015 - AHr=52.06, SOH=79%, Hx=74.56%, odo=21,536 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1145
Jul 24, 2015 - AHr=55.14, SOH=84%, Hx=80.29%, odo=19,765 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=926
May 16, 2015 - AHr=57.28, SOH=87%, Hx=84.50%, odo=19,338 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=788
Mar 27, 2015 - AHr=58.57, SOH=89%, Hx=87.04%, odo=18,539 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=701
 
You made it! Hope the replacement goes smoothly, and looking forward to the LeafSpy reports on the new battery degradation. :D
 
baustin said:
Oct 12, 2017
Fourth bar finally dropped on the way home after running some errands. Plugged it in to charge and then took a reading. Appointment to start warranty replacement scheduled for 17 October 2017.

The vehicle was manufactured in January 2013, spent it first two years in Georgia, was auctioned after lease return and brought to Las Vegas. I got it in March 2015. It dropped the first bar in October 2015, the second bar in June 2016, the third bar in November 2016, and the fourth bar in October 2017.

Oct 12, 2017 - AHr=36.81, SOH=56%, Hx=49.75%, odo=25,670 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2242
Sep 15, 2017 - AHr=38.17, SOH=58%, Hx=51.70%, odo=25,517 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2176
Sep 15, 2017 - AHr=38.60, SOH=59%, Hx=51.70%, odo=25,517 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2175
Aug 12, 2017 - AHr=39.25, SOH=60%, Hx=53.34%, odo=25,451 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2119
May 15, 2017 - AHr=40.96, SOH=62%, Hx=55.96%, odo=25,169 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1989
Jan 09, 2017 - AHr=42.69, SOH=65%, Hx=58.59%, odo=24,787 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1874
Jun 24, 2016 - AHr=47.74, SOH=73%, Hx=66.57%, odo=23,745 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1569
Apr 24, 2016 - AHr=48.58, SOH=74%, Hx=68.12%, odo=23,323 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1478
Feb 23, 2016 - AHr=50.11, SOH=76%, Hx=70.96%, odo=22,874 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1393
Dec 30, 2015 - AHr=51.40, SOH=78%, Hx=73.35%, odo=22,503 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1302
Oct 11, 2015 - AHr=52.06, SOH=79%, Hx=74.56%, odo=21,536 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1145
Jul 24, 2015 - AHr=55.14, SOH=84%, Hx=80.29%, odo=19,765 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=926
May 16, 2015 - AHr=57.28, SOH=87%, Hx=84.50%, odo=19,338 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=788
Mar 27, 2015 - AHr=58.57, SOH=89%, Hx=87.04%, odo=18,539 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=701

ahr of 36? That seems lower than the norm? or not?
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
baustin said:
Oct 12, 2017
Fourth bar finally dropped on the way home after running some errands. Plugged it in to charge and then took a reading. Appointment to start warranty replacement scheduled for 17 October 2017.

The vehicle was manufactured in January 2013, spent it first two years in Georgia, was auctioned after lease return and brought to Las Vegas. I got it in March 2015. It dropped the first bar in October 2015, the second bar in June 2016, the third bar in November 2016, and the fourth bar in October 2017.

Oct 12, 2017 - AHr=36.81, SOH=56%, Hx=49.75%, odo=25,670 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2242
Sep 15, 2017 - AHr=38.17, SOH=58%, Hx=51.70%, odo=25,517 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2176
Sep 15, 2017 - AHr=38.60, SOH=59%, Hx=51.70%, odo=25,517 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2175
Aug 12, 2017 - AHr=39.25, SOH=60%, Hx=53.34%, odo=25,451 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2119
May 15, 2017 - AHr=40.96, SOH=62%, Hx=55.96%, odo=25,169 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1989
Jan 09, 2017 - AHr=42.69, SOH=65%, Hx=58.59%, odo=24,787 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1874
Jun 24, 2016 - AHr=47.74, SOH=73%, Hx=66.57%, odo=23,745 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1569
Apr 24, 2016 - AHr=48.58, SOH=74%, Hx=68.12%, odo=23,323 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1478
Feb 23, 2016 - AHr=50.11, SOH=76%, Hx=70.96%, odo=22,874 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1393
Dec 30, 2015 - AHr=51.40, SOH=78%, Hx=73.35%, odo=22,503 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1302
Oct 11, 2015 - AHr=52.06, SOH=79%, Hx=74.56%, odo=21,536 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1145
Jul 24, 2015 - AHr=55.14, SOH=84%, Hx=80.29%, odo=19,765 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=926
May 16, 2015 - AHr=57.28, SOH=87%, Hx=84.50%, odo=19,338 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=788
Mar 27, 2015 - AHr=58.57, SOH=89%, Hx=87.04%, odo=18,539 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=701

ahr of 36? That seems lower than the norm? or not?

It is the lowest, that I am aware of, for dropping the fourth bar. Most of them seem to drop between 41 and 43. I was starting to get concerned, since I expected it to drop months ago, and the five years is up next February. The battery is very-well balanced, and I have not driven it as much this summer, as in the past, due to the decreased range. It might have dropped sooner, if I had been driving it more.
 
baustin said:
Oct 12, 2017
Fourth bar finally dropped on the way home after running some errands. Plugged it in to charge and then took a reading. Appointment to start warranty replacement scheduled for 17 October 2017.

The vehicle was manufactured in January 2013, spent it first two years in Georgia, was auctioned after lease return and brought to Las Vegas. I got it in March 2015. It dropped the first bar in October 2015, the second bar in June 2016, the third bar in November 2016, and the fourth bar in October 2017.

Oct 12, 2017 - AHr=36.81, SOH=56%, Hx=49.75%, odo=25,670 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2242
Sep 15, 2017 - AHr=38.17, SOH=58%, Hx=51.70%, odo=25,517 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2176
Sep 15, 2017 - AHr=38.60, SOH=59%, Hx=51.70%, odo=25,517 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2175
Aug 12, 2017 - AHr=39.25, SOH=60%, Hx=53.34%, odo=25,451 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2119
May 15, 2017 - AHr=40.96, SOH=62%, Hx=55.96%, odo=25,169 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1989
Jan 09, 2017 - AHr=42.69, SOH=65%, Hx=58.59%, odo=24,787 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1874
Jun 24, 2016 - AHr=47.74, SOH=73%, Hx=66.57%, odo=23,745 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1569
Apr 24, 2016 - AHr=48.58, SOH=74%, Hx=68.12%, odo=23,323 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1478
Feb 23, 2016 - AHr=50.11, SOH=76%, Hx=70.96%, odo=22,874 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1393
Dec 30, 2015 - AHr=51.40, SOH=78%, Hx=73.35%, odo=22,503 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1302
Oct 11, 2015 - AHr=52.06, SOH=79%, Hx=74.56%, odo=21,536 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1145
Jul 24, 2015 - AHr=55.14, SOH=84%, Hx=80.29%, odo=19,765 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=926
May 16, 2015 - AHr=57.28, SOH=87%, Hx=84.50%, odo=19,338 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=788
Mar 27, 2015 - AHr=58.57, SOH=89%, Hx=87.04%, odo=18,539 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=701

How often do you recharge ? By your data it looks improbably frequent.

By the way, I graphed your data. No obvious rhyme or reason to when you lost capacity

uc
 
SageBrush said:
baustin said:
Oct 12, 2017
Fourth bar finally dropped on the way home after running some errands. Plugged it in to charge and then took a reading. Appointment to start warranty replacement scheduled for 17 October 2017.

The vehicle was manufactured in January 2013, spent it first two years in Georgia, was auctioned after lease return and brought to Las Vegas. I got it in March 2015. It dropped the first bar in October 2015, the second bar in June 2016, the third bar in November 2016, and the fourth bar in October 2017.

Oct 12, 2017 - AHr=36.81, SOH=56%, Hx=49.75%, odo=25,670 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2242
Sep 15, 2017 - AHr=38.17, SOH=58%, Hx=51.70%, odo=25,517 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2176
Sep 15, 2017 - AHr=38.60, SOH=59%, Hx=51.70%, odo=25,517 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2175
Aug 12, 2017 - AHr=39.25, SOH=60%, Hx=53.34%, odo=25,451 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2119
May 15, 2017 - AHr=40.96, SOH=62%, Hx=55.96%, odo=25,169 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1989
Jan 09, 2017 - AHr=42.69, SOH=65%, Hx=58.59%, odo=24,787 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1874
Jun 24, 2016 - AHr=47.74, SOH=73%, Hx=66.57%, odo=23,745 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1569
Apr 24, 2016 - AHr=48.58, SOH=74%, Hx=68.12%, odo=23,323 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1478
Feb 23, 2016 - AHr=50.11, SOH=76%, Hx=70.96%, odo=22,874 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1393
Dec 30, 2015 - AHr=51.40, SOH=78%, Hx=73.35%, odo=22,503 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1302
Oct 11, 2015 - AHr=52.06, SOH=79%, Hx=74.56%, odo=21,536 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=1145
Jul 24, 2015 - AHr=55.14, SOH=84%, Hx=80.29%, odo=19,765 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=926
May 16, 2015 - AHr=57.28, SOH=87%, Hx=84.50%, odo=19,338 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=788
Mar 27, 2015 - AHr=58.57, SOH=89%, Hx=87.04%, odo=18,539 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=701

How often do you recharge ? By your data it looks improbably frequent.

By the way, I graphed your data. No obvious rhyme or reason to when you lost capacity

uc

I have it set to charge every day, but it is on a timer, so it counts once when plugged in and once again when the charging timer activates (even if the battery doesn't need charged).

The vehicle was made in January 2013, so the cells inside the battery are the 2012 chemistry. The change in environment, bringing it to Las Vegas, accelerated the degradation. There appears to be a distance component to the bar dropping algorithm in the Leaf. I drove it a lot during the first two years, and not as much this year, which seems to have delayed the drop. I expected it to happen months ago, and it may have, if I had been driving it more.
 
^^^
Yep, as baustin notes, there are quirks w/the L1/L2 count. I usually point folks to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=452126#p452126 on that.

Congrats on making it in time w/the crap chemistry! You will be yet another hot climate data point for the (hopefully) lizard battery.
 
baustin said:
SageBrush said:
How often do you recharge ? By your data it looks improbably frequent.
I have it set to charge every day, but it is on a timer, so it counts once when plugged in and once again when the charging timer activates (even if the battery doesn't need charged).

The vehicle was made in January 2013, so the cells inside the battery are the 2012 chemistry. The change in environment, bringing it to Las Vegas, accelerated the degradation. There appears to be a distance component to the bar dropping algorithm in the Leaf. I drove it a lot during the first two years, and not as much this year, which seems to have delayed the drop. I expected it to happen months ago, and it may have, if I had been driving it more.
Charges up to 80 or 100% every day ?
Thanks for the charge counter tip. That probably explains why I sometimes see unusually high counts in other posts.
 
SageBrush said:
baustin said:
SageBrush said:
How often do you recharge ? By your data it looks improbably frequent.
I have it set to charge every day, but it is on a timer, so it counts once when plugged in and once again when the charging timer activates (even if the battery doesn't need charged).

The vehicle was made in January 2013, so the cells inside the battery are the 2012 chemistry. The change in environment, bringing it to Las Vegas, accelerated the degradation. There appears to be a distance component to the bar dropping algorithm in the Leaf. I drove it a lot during the first two years, and not as much this year, which seems to have delayed the drop. I expected it to happen months ago, and it may have, if I had been driving it more.
Charges up to 80 or 100% every day ?
Thanks for the charge counter tip. That probably explains why I sometimes see unusually high counts in other posts.

I started out charging to 80% every day, and 100% when needed for range and periodically to balance the cells. Now it is 100% every day, and that is no longer enough to get me across the valley and back.
 
I bought a ‘13 Leaf S+QC about ten days ago for $8,000 to get me through until my Model 3 shows up. The Leaf was manufactured 1/13 and was missing three capacity bars with 36,715 miles on the odometer. I called 877-NOGASEV before taking delivery and confirmed the capacity warranty was valid and in effect until 3/31/18 or 60,000 miles.

The Leafspy stats at delivery were 42.63 Ah 65% SOH with 2 QCs and 1355 L1/L2. Carfax says it was a Hawaii car before heading to auction after the lease.

Today at lunch it dropped the fourth bar after a quick charge. The stats have been bouncing around a bit since I’ve had the car (Ah range of 41.58 to 42.65, SOH 63-65%) but at the bar drop LeafSpy read 42.60Ah/65%SOH/58.45%Hx with 15 QCs and 1367 L1/L2 at 37,254 miles.

I don’t need much range day to day and my inclination is to wait until March 20th or so before filing a warranty claim. The Facebook group seems to say that’s stupid and Nissan will look for excuses, therefore I should make the claim ASAP. Thoughts?
 
with only 5 months left and entering the cooler months, I say just get it scheduled now. Also, at the moment Nissan is replacing them with new packs. At some point they announced that they're only responsible to bring you up to "better than 4 bars of loss".

If it was my car, I'd get it done now. It'll also take a few weeks to get the battery into the dealer.

Congrats on winning a new battery.

Cheers.
 
I took mine in today to get the warranty replacement started. Initially, they told me it would take about two hours. When I got there, all they said they needed was to plug in the Consult Tool and get a battery status printout of only 8 bars showing. They're supposed to call tomorrow, after it's ordered, to tell me when the replacement battery will arrive.
 
baustin said:
I took mine in today to get the warranty replacement started. Initially, they told me it would take about two hours. When I got there, all they said they needed was to plug in the Consult Tool and get a battery status printout of only 8 bars showing. They're supposed to call tomorrow, after it's ordered, to tell me when the replacement battery will arrive.

Replacement traction battery arrived on October 19th and installed this morning. I took this reading just before I left the dealership.

Oct 20, 2017 - AHr=65.40, SOH=100%, Hx=100.00%, odo=25,771 miles, QC=4 L1/L2=2262
 
silverone said:
I was surprised I didn't see much discussion about these swings or the effect of cold ambient temperature, because they'd be critical in evaluating a used car for someone in a cold climate. Battery temperatures didn't swing as wildly or seem to have as much of an effect.

I have Leaf Spy running on a spare phone almost all the time and logging to Dropbox. Although these are my max/min readings over a timeframe, none are really outliers from the surrounding data. It seems to take about 3 days for readings to stabilize after a big ambient temperature swing.

I've also seen GIDs at 100% charge swing accordingly from 259 to 284 over the same timeframe, although they seem to max out at 284 for any AHr reading above the high 65 range.

Based on the way the data is trending for my car, I may have a low enough AHr reading by mid summer to lose a bar after showing 103+ Hx at times in the winter! Perhaps if things continue I'll make and publish a trend of the data.

I have definitely seen a trend of Ahr/SOH swinging fairly consistently with ambient temperature since I started tracking data in November 2015. I first posted about it in my regular 6 month cost update Nov 2016 http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update-96000-km-and-2-5-years/ (scroll down to the header on LeafSpy). The pattern continued through last winter, noted at http://kootenayevfamily.ca/cost-update-3-years-and-117000-km/ in May of this year. I saw the trend continue into the summer - in June 2017 my Ahr reached 55.89 and 85% SOH again (same as from the previous August, after going to a high of 93%.

I finally lost my first bar after being below 85% for a few months on August 31, 2017. Stats as follows:
Ahr=54.50, SOH=83%, Hx=79.72%, odo=127,413km, 53 QCs
(I haven't posted the L1/L2s, because I often use the charge timer, which inflates this value substantially, counts once when you plug in, another when it starts charging)

I'm now 4,000 km further along here into October, and my stats are now back to (as of Oct 10):
Ahr=55.68, SOH=85%, Hx=82.63%, odo=131,562km
The lost bar hasn't re-appeared... but I'll be curious to see if it does!

We had a nice hot summer from June through first two weeks of September (+30C most days), then high 20C throughout September, and only recently has it cooled down and become rainy. Start here -> http://climate.weather.gc.ca/climate_data/daily_data_e.html?StationID=31067&timeframe=2&StartYear=1840&EndYear=2017&Day=19&Year=2017&Month=6#, and click on the next month button to flip through and get an idea of the temps the car sits in all day long in a baking asphalt parking lot. At night, it is in a carport that is built into north-facing hillside, so it does get a chance to cool down usually to 5 or 6 bars, but each day was up to 7. Now with the cool weather in October, starting each day with 4 bars, and after charging for a few hours just before I leave work, it is back up to 5 bars.

TLDR; - in my experience, you can only trend your own personal LeafSpy data year-over-year with roughly similar climate conditions. So I'll carry on and expect to see 87-88% SOH by November, where it will plateau for a few months, then drop right back down in the spring and reach a low by the end of summer 2018. I'm going to take a stab at 80% (assuming I continue with similar commute).
 
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