2017 Prius Prime PHEV

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As many predicted, the incentives that make a Prime PHEV less expensive than a Prius hybrid for many buyers seem likely to be a significant factor in the rapid decline of Prius US sales this year.

The Toyota Prius Is Suffering Its Worst Sales in The Last Dozen Years

The 52-56 mpg Toyota Prius Liftback is the best it’s ever been, and it is suffering its worst sales year since 2004.

A car that has seen sales over 140,000 units in two years this decade has through the third quarter this year just 50,911 in the bag, and may finish the year at 70,000, according to analyst Alan Baum.

Last year it managed 98,863 sales...

...its own Prime plug-in stablemate is cannibalizing some sales, and its 1,899 sales last month, and 15,056 for the year mean it’s having the best year since 2012 when the the plug-in Prius was introduced – just 292 sales less than the reigning champ Chevy Volt, which it may beat this year...
Click to expand...
http://www.hybridcars.com/the-toyota-prius-is-suffering-its-worst-sales-in-the-last-dozen-years/
 
edatoakrun said:
As many predicted, the incentives that make a Prime PHEV less expensive than a Prius hybrid for many buyers seem likely to be a significant factor in the rapid decline of Prius US sales this year.

The Toyota Prius Is Suffering Its Worst Sales in The Last Dozen Years

The 52-56 mpg Toyota Prius Liftback is the best it’s ever been, and it is suffering its worst sales year since 2004.

A car that has seen sales over 140,000 units in two years this decade has through the third quarter this year just 50,911 in the bag, and may finish the year at 70,000, according to analyst Alan Baum.

Last year it managed 98,863 sales...

...its own Prime plug-in stablemate is cannibalizing some sales, and its 1,899 sales last month, and 15,056 for the year mean it’s having the best year since 2012 when the the plug-in Prius was introduced – just 292 sales less than the reigning champ Chevy Volt, which it may beat this year...
Click to expand...
http://www.hybridcars.com/the-toyota-prius-is-suffering-its-worst-sales-in-the-last-dozen-years/
Click to expand...
Well the incentives, the looks and the alternatives.
 
GRA said:
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
Do you run in HV or EV Auto mode for most of your (I assume freeway) commute, and if so, how much do you have left in the battery once you get off the freeway, i.e. how much does the battery get used in those modes? I'd much prefer a full hold mode so that I could use the battery only when I wanted to, but Hybrid Auto is the closest that the Prime comes to that. EV Auto could be a good option depending on how it's implemented. For a PHEV I'd personally prefer having EV Now, EV Later (i.e. Hold) and EV Auto, the last with variable setpoints for the owner to choose; EV Charging mode would be a nice to have. Defaults for EV Auto might be something like 35 mph and below use EV, 35+ use the ICE, but I'd want to be able to vary that and probably the hysteresis as well.
Click to expand...
My commute is an overall decline on the way out and incline on the way back so it works out well to just start the drive in EV and drive that way until battery depletion. In good weather I make it to my destination all in EV but I often end up ~ 5 miles short. People who try to switch modes as they drive are unlikely to benefit because the ICE cools down on them. This is particularly true as the weather cools.

As a rule of thumb, EV is efficient pretty much anywhere I drive but HV does better with a higher load. I don't mean extreme loads, just enough to keep the ICE in the best power band. I usually drive about 105 kph for the 30/45 miles each way on the highway and end up getting ~ 56 -- 62 mpg on the HV return leg that includes 1178 feet net climb which works out to ~ 1.5 kWh potential energy. The HV efficiency is crazy good, which in large part explains why the Prime overall does so well in mixed EV/HV driving.
Click to expand...
I'd think the typical urban commute involve surface streets to the freeway, then a long leg on that followed by surface streets to work, and the reverse on the way home. So to me, using EV Now at each end, with HV during the freeway portion would generally give the best efficiency, assuming that the engine were on long enough to warm up. Given adjustments to suit an individual's commute, I'd think EV Auto would be able to handle that. This would also reduce emissions in the most critical areas.

Obviously individual commutes (such as yours) might have different results, but I think the above description would be generally true. Have you experimented with using the different modes for your commute to see how things change, or is it just not worth the hassle for you?
Click to expand...
I started off with fiddling and eventually realized that my required HV driving was quite a bit more efficient during the return, higher load part of my commute.

While it would seem to make sense to use EV off the highway and HV on the highway as you describe, one of the difficulties is finishing the battery charge right at the end of your drive. Errors either way, and the best laid plans do not pan out. Another fly in the ointment is that HV mode lets the driver dip into the HV reserve. I use this for the last mile or so of my final neighborhood driving. EV mode would kick me into ICE mode before that and I would have to go through the ICE warm-up again.

There is certainly a part of me that just wants to set DRCC and cruise home, but I have played around with the available systems and given thought to maximizing efficiency. I may drive differently when winter really sets in.
 
SageBrush said:
I started off with fiddling and eventually realized that my required HV driving was quite a bit more efficient during the return, higher load part of my commute.

While it would seem to make sense to use EV off the highway and HV on the highway as you describe, one of the difficulties is finishing the battery charge right at the end of your drive. Errors either way, and the best laid plans do not pan out. Another fly in the ointment is that HV mode lets the driver dip into the HV reserve. I use this for the last mile or so of my final neighborhood driving. EV mode would kick me into ICE mode before that and I would have to go through the ICE warm-up again.

There is certainly a part of me that just wants to set DRCC and cruise home, but I have played around with the available systems and given thought to maximizing efficiency. I may drive differently when winter really sets in.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info. I guess I'd lean towards doing the HV/EV split as I'd described, keeping enough of the battery in reserve to ensure that I'd always be able to use EV mode at each end, and accepting slightly more ICE use and lower overall efficiency so as to minimize emissions in the areas with the most people, but it's a question of individual taste and priorities, the difference probably being down in the noise. Please let us know how/if your usage changes during the winter.

BTW, I'm a bit unclear on just how EV Auto mode works on the Prime, and how it differs from HV mode. Can you give an example?
 
GRA said:
SageBrush said:
I started off with fiddling and eventually realized that my required HV driving was quite a bit more efficient during the return, higher load part of my commute.

While it would seem to make sense to use EV off the highway and HV on the highway as you describe, one of the difficulties is finishing the battery charge right at the end of your drive. Errors either way, and the best laid plans do not pan out. Another fly in the ointment is that HV mode lets the driver dip into the HV reserve. I use this for the last mile or so of my final neighborhood driving. EV mode would kick me into ICE mode before that and I would have to go through the ICE warm-up again.

There is certainly a part of me that just wants to set DRCC and cruise home, but I have played around with the available systems and given thought to maximizing efficiency. I may drive differently when winter really sets in.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the info. I guess I'd lean towards doing the HV/EV split as I'd described, keeping enough of the battery in reserve to ensure that I'd always be able to use EV mode at each end, and accepting slightly more ICE use and lower overall efficiency so as to minimize emissions in the areas with the most people, but it's a question of individual taste and priorities, the difference probably being down in the noise. Please let us know how/if your usage changes during the winter.

BTW, I'm a bit unclear on just how EV Auto mode works on the Prime, and how it differs from HV mode. Can you give an example?
Click to expand...
For my use, EV Auto is worthless. The mode turns on the (possible cold or cool) ICE to keep the electric motor out of a very high load, low efficiency state. I played with it a couple times in mountain driving and never had the ICE come on, which was fine with me.

Regarding tailipipe emissions: the Prime is a small fraction of SULEV; e.g. 20% of SULEV allowed NOx and about 12% of SULEV allowed CO
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
BTW, I'm a bit unclear on just how EV Auto mode works on the Prime, and how it differs from HV mode. Can you give an example?
Click to expand...
For my use, EV Auto is worthless. The mode turns on the (possible cold or cool) ICE to keep the electric motor out of a very high load, low efficiency state. I played with it a couple times in mountain driving and never had the ICE come on, which was fine with me.

Regarding tailipipe emissions: the Prime is a small fraction of SULEV; e.g. 20% of SULEV allowed NOx and about 12% of SULEV allowed CO
Click to expand...
Thanks.
 
October Prime U.S. sales via IEVS: 1,626, down from 1,899 last month despite improved inventory, for 16,882 YTD. That puts it in 3rd spot, behind the Model S and the Bolt, which just overtook it and the Volt. It will be interesting to see which has sales legs.
 
GRA said:
October Prime U.S. sales via IEVS: 1,626, down from 1,899 last month despite improved inventory, for 16,882 YTD. That puts it in 3rd spot, behind the Model S and the Bolt, which just overtook it and the Volt. It will be interesting to see which has sales legs.
Click to expand...
I don't know about the rest of the world but monthly EV sales in the US are markedly affected by sales discounts. Anything less than a year of sales is just hoopla for fanbois and perhaps as often as not, bad news for the success of the car.

In short, sales figures in the US taken out of context are GIGO
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
October Prime U.S. sales via IEVS: 1,626, down from 1,899 last month despite improved inventory, for 16,882 YTD. That puts it in 3rd spot, behind the Model S and the Bolt, which just overtook it and the Volt. It will be interesting to see which has sales legs.
Click to expand...
I don't know about the rest of the world but monthly EV sales in the US are markedly affected by sales discounts. Anything less than a year of sales is just hoopla for fanbois and perhaps as often as not, bad news for the success of the car.

In short, sales figures in the US taken out of context are GIGO
Click to expand...
I agree that a single month's sales are often driven mainly by incentives, or else backlogs in a new market, which is what may be happening with the Bolt. We'll see. There's an article at IEVS quoting a Chevy dealer re Bolt/Volt sales, who says that a lot of the ideological customers are moving from their Volt to the Bolt (as you'd expect. However, he also says
“The Volt will rebound. It is still a much more logical choice for people who travel.”
Click to expand...
https://insideevs.com/chevy-dealer-bolt-sales-cannibalizing-volt/
The same holds true for the Prime, and if Congress does repeal the tax credit I expect the Prime's price will win out, as it's the only PEV that's reasonably price-competitive with comparable HEVs and ICEs.
 
GRA said:
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
October Prime U.S. sales via IEVS: 1,626, down from 1,899 last month despite improved inventory, for 16,882 YTD. That puts it in 3rd spot, behind the Model S and the Bolt, which just overtook it and the Volt. It will be interesting to see which has sales legs.
Click to expand...
I don't know about the rest of the world but monthly EV sales in the US are markedly affected by sales discounts. Anything less than a year of sales is just hoopla for fanbois and perhaps as often as not, bad news for the success of the car.

In short, sales figures in the US taken out of context are GIGO
Click to expand...
I agree that a single month's sales are often driven mainly by incentives, or else backlogs in a new market, which is what may be happening with the Bolt. We'll see. There's an article at IEVS quoting a Chevy dealer re Bolt/Volt sales, who says that a lot of the ideological customers are moving from their Volt to the Bolt (as you'd expect. However, he also says
“The Volt will rebound. It is still a much more logical choice for people who travel.”
Click to expand...
https://insideevs.com/chevy-dealer-bolt-sales-cannibalizing-volt/
The same holds true for the Prime, and if Congress does repeal the tax credit I expect the Prime's price will win out, as it's the only PEV that's reasonably price-competitive with comparable HEVs and ICEs.
Click to expand...


Or it could be that PHEVs were just the gateway drug to longer range BEVs (200+ AER). Once you get a taste of that silky smooth, ultra quiet all electric drive it becomes pretty easy to ditch the dinosaur (ICE)!
 
Demographics wise most new car
EVs and PHEV sales are sales to folks who already own a car with a battery

Manufacturers are all fighting for the same people, adoption by traditional ice car owners is slow.

The manufacturer needs to get new folks in EVs if they want to succeed
 
Per IEVS, the Prime made up 21.1% of all U.S. Prius sales in October, a new high: https://insideevs.com/us-ev-sales-charted-market-share-above-1-for-sixth-month-in-a-row-in-october/

Unless Congress repeals the tax credit, I expect the Prime to shortly overtake the Volt and move into third place for the year, as it's only 28 behind and outsold the Volt by 264 in October. Unlike the Volt it has no corporate PEV competition to split its share, and the Mirai's sales will remain relatively small compared to the Bolt. However, if the credit is repealed effective 1/1/2018, we may see a spurt of sales by people trying to take advantage of it for more expensive PEVs until the end of the year, which might boost both of the GM offerings relative to the Prime.
 
In December, the Prime crossed the 2,000 sales mark in the U.S. for the first time, with 2,420, and 20,936 for the year, which puts them in 3rd place* overall behind the Model S (27,060 est.) and Bolt (the latter breached the 3k mark for the first time, with 3,227, and 23,297 for the year). I wonder how much of the Bolt's sales may have been due to fear that the tax credit would be gone, and how much was due to regular demand (plus the usual December spike).

*[Update] Tesla just announced sales, and the Model X moved into 3rd place ahead of the Prime, with 21,315 for the year.
 
GRA said:
As predicted last month, the Prime overtook the Volt for third place YTD in U.S. PEV sales, with 1,834 vs. 1,702 for November, and 18,516 vs. 18,412 YTD.
Click to expand...
In retrospect, nearly inevitable, from this thread's first post:

2017 Prius Prime PHEV

Sun Aug 30, 2015 9:46 am

Updating a PHEV's exterior design from boring to ugly (I.E. Mitsu Outlander) seems to be a trend lately.

Appearance notwithstanding, if the E range rumors are correct, it looks like ~eight kWh of the battery pack will be available, and the Prius brand could mean significant sales, particularly if Toyota decides it wants to generate its own CARB credits, rather than buying them from Tesla.

You think it will outsell the Volt gen 2?...
Click to expand...
More a result of the Volt's fundamental design fault, hindering the efficiency and cost of its PHEV with an over-sized pack.

No great victory for Toyota, though. Once Toyota begins to produce BEVs in bulk, the Prime will quickly be superseded, just as the Volt has been by the Bolt...which outsold the Prime in the USA by ~50% in the last quarter, and finished #2 in the USA for the year, to #4 and #5 for the Prime and Volt respectively, BTW.
 
Via IEVS:
Toyota Prius Prime Has Breakthrough Heat Pump System, Bumps Electric Range Up 21% In Cold
Click to expand...
https://insideevs.com/toyota-prius-...mp-system-bumps-electric-range-up-21-in-cold/

. . . Some manufacturers use heat pumps (reverse air-conditioning), which is able to lower the energy usage by a magnitude of two to three.

However, the efficiency of the heat pump decreases in low temperatures, so the heat pump doesn’t improve efficiency (or is unavailable) under 0C or -10C. That’s when you need the heat the most. . . .

Here is how it works:

  • “The innovation in the Prius Prime system is the incorporation of a cyclone separator (CS) integrated valve into the system. To understand how this works, an understanding of conventional heat pump operation will help. In a normal heat-pump system, the compressor pumps high-pressure refrigerant vapour to the evaporator core inside the passenger compartment. The compressed vapour is hot and transfers the heat to air blowing through the heater system. This cools the vapour and it starts to turn into a liquid, which flows under high pressure out to the control valve where flow is restricted and the high-pressure liquid turns into a low-pressure liquid that starts to boil. It continues to boil as it passes through the condenser in front of the radiator, absorbing heat from the outside air until the refrigerant is a vapour again and it goes back into the compressor to go through the cycle again. A heat pump is the opposite of the flow when air conditioning is requested.

    Now, Toyota has added the Cyclone Separator integrated valve into the system, which uses centrifugal force inside the valve to separate the vapour from any liquid and injects the vapour directly back to the compressor, bypassing the condenser. The vapour is already warm, so it can provide more heat to the vehicle interior, while the liquid is directed back to the condenser, where it can absorb more heat from outside the vehicle. There are now two paths for the vapour/liquid to flow and the efficiency of the system is greatly increased.“

Toyota says that efficiency is 63% higher than conventional heating, so the range in cold weather could be up to 21% higher.

Besides reusing warm vapor, the heat pump works in six different modes, depending on the temperature.
Click to expand...
It would be nice to know just how low the temp can be and the heat pump still gives an efficiency advantage. Maybe Sagebrush can comment.
 
GRA said:
Via IEVS:
Toyota Prius Prime Has Breakthrough Heat Pump System, Bumps Electric Range Up 21% In Cold
Click to expand...
https://insideevs.com/toyota-prius-...mp-system-bumps-electric-range-up-21-in-cold/

. . . Some manufacturers use heat pumps (reverse air-conditioning), which is able to lower the energy usage by a magnitude of two to three.

However, the efficiency of the heat pump decreases in low temperatures, so the heat pump doesn’t improve efficiency (or is unavailable) under 0C or -10C. That’s when you need the heat the most. . . .

Here is how it works:

  • “The innovation in the Prius Prime system is the incorporation of a cyclone separator (CS) integrated valve into the system. To understand how this works, an understanding of conventional heat pump operation will help. In a normal heat-pump system, the compressor pumps high-pressure refrigerant vapour to the evaporator core inside the passenger compartment. The compressed vapour is hot and transfers the heat to air blowing through the heater system. This cools the vapour and it starts to turn into a liquid, which flows under high pressure out to the control valve where flow is restricted and the high-pressure liquid turns into a low-pressure liquid that starts to boil. It continues to boil as it passes through the condenser in front of the radiator, absorbing heat from the outside air until the refrigerant is a vapour again and it goes back into the compressor to go through the cycle again. A heat pump is the opposite of the flow when air conditioning is requested.

    Now, Toyota has added the Cyclone Separator integrated valve into the system, which uses centrifugal force inside the valve to separate the vapour from any liquid and injects the vapour directly back to the compressor, bypassing the condenser. The vapour is already warm, so it can provide more heat to the vehicle interior, while the liquid is directed back to the condenser, where it can absorb more heat from outside the vehicle. There are now two paths for the vapour/liquid to flow and the efficiency of the system is greatly increased.“

Toyota says that efficiency is 63% higher than conventional heating, so the range in cold weather could be up to 21% higher.

Besides reusing warm vapor, the heat pump works in six different modes, depending on the temperature.
Click to expand...
It would be nice to know just how low the temp can be and the heat pump still gives an efficiency advantage. Maybe Sagebrush can comment.
Click to expand...
I don't have any personal experience. I do without cabin heating unless and until I have ICE waste heat

IIRC COP exceeds 1.0 from about 12F but only really starts to shine from the 30s F onward.
 
^^^ OTOH, sales are up in the U.S., 2,050 for February vs. 1,362 in Feb. 2017 (Feb LEAF sales 895, but still ramping up), and the Prime made up 29% of U.S. Prius sales; regular Prius sales continue to decrease, as HEVs are no longer seen as environmental high-tech. The Prime undoubtedly also benefits from the general opinion that it's better-looking than the regular Prius and also cheaper, especially in California.
 

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