The Early Demise of the $7500 Credit is BAD News

LTLFTcomposite said:

Tim Cook holds the profits offshore I'm just not buying any of it.

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You better read and understand this pet bill of yours. It excludes offshore American corporate income from American taxation. That has been the Apple way for years now: Set a paper trail of American profits through an international address to shelter income from taxation. The Repubs just want to make it all nice and legal so that more corporations can join the party and then bring in the money to the US and not pay a cent. Good job, genius !

I appreciate your moral high horse -- no, really. Why, I bet you have been sending checks every two weeks to a needy corporation since it was money you stole from them. Or have you demanded a lower salary to compensate your employer for your theft of their money ? Have you also been sending checks to your CEO to return your ill-gotten gains from his tax rate over 20% ?

Please do not disappoint me. I would be devastated to learn you are hypocritical little puke.

OK, I'm done for the moment mocking you. Where are you going to pull 130 Billion a year from for your corporate tax reduction if the pie in the sky growth rate does not materialize ? Does not materialize, you say ? "Impossible. The WH psychopath promises me prosperity." Look at the pretty graphs in this article AND GET A CLUE
https://www.americanprogress.org/issues/economy/news/2012/08/01/11998/the-failure-of-supply-side-economics/

^ I don't have a clue what you you are talking about. Just answer one question, how come corporate profits are taxed at lower rates in European countries than the US?

This is an interesting article on supply side economics written by a disillusioned past advocate:
https://www.usatoday.com/story/opinion/2017/09/27/tax-cut-fever-republican-supply-side-theory-hogwash-bruce-bartlett-column/704464001/

Spend some time and understand what this bill does by reading this:

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/publications/analysis-house-gop-tax-plan/full

Probably more than you wanted to know but comprehensive.

LTLFTcomposite said:

^ I don't have a clue what you you are talking about.

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I know. And you are too arrogant to learn. But I know that you were taught to read, so have at it, courtesy of the taxpolicycenter.org

TPC,in collaboration with the Penn-Wharton Budget Model(PWBM), also prepared two sets of estimates of the House GOP plan that take into account macroeconomic feedback effects. 3 Both sets of estimates indicate that the plan would boost GDP in the short run, reducing the revenue cost of the plan. However, including interest costs,the federal debt would increase by at least $3.0 trillion, even with these positive macroeconomic feedback effects on revenues.

By the end of the second ten years, the long-run PWBM indicates that GDP would begin to grow more slowly due to the effect of growing budget deficits crowding out investment, and the federal debt would increase by$6.6 trillion.These estimates are sensitive to parameter assumptions and the effects on GDP could be larger or smaller in both the short-and the long-run. The plan would cut taxes at every income level in 2017, but high-income taxpayers would receive the biggest cuts, both in dollar terms and as a percentage of income.

Overall, the plan would cut the average tax bill in 2017 by$1,810, increasing after-tax income by 2.5 percent. Three-quarters of the tax cuts would benefit the top 1 percent of taxpayers and the highest-income taxpayers (0.1 percent of the population, or those with incomes over $3.7 million in 2015 dollars) would experience an average tax cut of about $1.3 million, 16.9 percent of after-tax income. Households in the middle fifth of the income distribution would receive an average tax cut of almost $260, or 0.5 percent of after-tax income, while the poorest fifth of households would see their taxes go down an average of about $50, or 0.4 percent of their after-tax income. In 2025, the top 1 percent of households would receive nearly 100 percent of the total tax reduction. Households in some upper-middle income groups would have tax increases on average, and households at other income levels would have smaller average cuts, relative to after-tax income, than in 2017.

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Which brings us back to a question YOU must answer: how are the blooming deficits going to be covered ? You get to pick stagflation or cuts to services like healthcare and education. Education is probably the best choice if you are anything to go by.

SageBrush said:

I know. And you are too arrogant to learn. But I know that you were taught to read, so have at it, courtesy of the taxpolicycenter.org
Which brings us back to a question YOU must answer: how are the blooming deficits going to be covered ?

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I could never be as smart as you. It must be painful to live in a nation with so many dullards.

How do we cover the deficits? Good question. I would say just take all the money from the Tim Cooks of the world, but they're already covering most of the tab and it's unclear there enough of them. Failing that a good start might be to reduce the size of government?

1. The EV credit looks like a goner to me, because I don't think this going to drag out. If there are any adjustments, I would expect some bending on "state and local taxes" limit by a couple thousand to get some republicans from NY and CA on board and a final corporate rate between 22% and 25%. The EV credit doesn't have a huge constiuency and there won't be much time to talk.

2. If you are a renter, or an income below $50,000 you might end up paying less. But if you itemize now, you are probably worse off on your personal return. I don't think the EV prices will drop enough, or after tax income increase enough to make up $7500.

3. The concept that an business owner is going to take "tax savings" and add to wages (other then his own) without new orders coming in is pretty rediculous. They hire the people to get the work done at the lowest wage to get the people required. Hopefully there will be additional spending by the owners (and there are lots of small business owners) and that will grow the economy. Maybe even they can purchase a nice new EV and charging station for their business (and expense it the first year!).

4. I found it very enlightening to read this this article about how companies like AAPL account for their overseas taxes liability http://fortune.com/2017/10/31/trump-tax-reform-apple-multinational-companies/ but don't have have to write a check for it (defer it) until they decide to repatriate the money. Turns out Apple has been accounting for a very large part of their overseas income at the the 35% tax rate. What the new law would do is remove the deferral option, but tax it at 12% instead of 35%. It wouldn't matter if they keep the cash overseas, they have have to payup in 2018. But that also means they get an instant boost to earnings because they overestimated what they would eventually pay.
Would they raise wages with the now free to roam cash? See #3.

5. The clock is ticking. True the political prediction markets don't think this will go through, but they have been wrong before.

6. I would love to get a discount on the EVs I want to get, but right now their not available. Without the credit in play I will probably will wait until they are ready and I can get the exact model I want.

I think that this will be pretty much the end of middle class retired and lower income people buying, and especially leasing, new EVs. After 2017 they/we will have to buy used, and this will drive used EV prices up. If I could afford to buy my 2013 as well as lease a new Bolt, I'd do it, with the expectation of reselling it for quite a bit more in the Spring. So I guess this isn't ALL bad news - not for current EV owners - just mostly bad.

LTLFTcomposite said:

How do we cover the deficits? Good question Failing that a good start might be to reduce the size of government?

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Uh huh. Where in this pet tax bill of yours is government reduced ? Point me to details.

They do not exist, but the intent is obvious: reduce federal spending on healthcare. Are you with me this far genius ? If so, tell me who will pick up the healthcare tab ? Think hard, I have faith in you to connect the dots.

Got it ? Your healthcare costs will skyrocket to cover the corporate tax giveaway.

LTLFTcomposite said:

^ I don't have a clue what you you are talking about. Just answer one question, how come corporate profits are taxed at lower rates in European countries than the US?

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Really really low, on the Island of Jersey, where Apple collects most of it's profits. Even though Apple does very little business on Jersey...

http://www.businessinsider.com/paradise-papers-apple-found-new-tax-haven-after-us-senate-tax-crackdown-2017-11

Tax rate and reality can be somewhat unlinked in practice.

Yogi62 said:

2. If you are a renter, or an income below $50,000 you might end up paying less. .

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Nah. The Repub pukes are conveniently forgetting to mention that they are cancelling student loan deductions when they describe their "typical American household."

The tax story boils down to this:
$130 Billion a year windfall to the top 1% and corporations
$20 Billion a year for the rest of country; then
Skyrocketing health premiums paid out of pocket to cover the tax plan deficit.

The rest is people fighting over crumbs.

SageBrush said:

Yogi62 said:

2. If you are a renter, or an income below $50,000 you might end up paying less. .

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Nah. The Repub pukes are conveniently forgetting to mention that they are cancelling student loan deductions when they describe their "typical American household."

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The key to successfully scamming people using the tax code is to have some winners. Ironically, I would save money on the new tax plan. Those with low to moderate incomes who don't itemize will probably save money. The rest of those in the same income brackets will not.

LeftieBiker said:

SageBrush said:

Yogi62 said:

2. If you are a renter, or an income below $50,000 you might end up paying less. .

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Nah. The Repub pukes are conveniently forgetting to mention that they are cancelling student loan deductions when they describe their "typical American household."

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The key to successfully scamming people using the tax code is to have some winners. Ironically, I would save money on the new tax plan. Those with low to moderate incomes who don't itemize will probably save money. The rest of those in the same income brackets will not.

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You may see reduced taxes (for a couple of years anyway, until the built-in inflation scam eats them away), but you WILL pay for the corporate giveaway. Watch what happens to your out of pocket healthcare costs as the Repubs defund the healthcare system to pay for the corporate tax breaks. I get the feeling that that the manipulated fools like LTLFTcomposite, to the extent they think through this idiotic plan at all, hope that their skyrocketing healthcare premiums will be absorbed by their employers.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahhahahahahha

LTLFTcomposite said:

Just answer one question, how come corporate profits are taxed at lower rates in European countries than the US?

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Reference? I briefly looked for a list by country of "corporate taxes as a fraction of GDP" and "corporate taxes as a fraction of total tax revenue" but couldn't find it.

Cheers, Wayne

wwhitney said:

LTLFTcomposite said:

Just answer one question, how come corporate profits are taxed at lower rates in European countries than the US?

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Reference? I briefly looked for a list by country of "corporate taxes as a fraction of GDP" and "corporate taxes as a fraction of total tax revenue" but couldn't find it.

Cheers, Wayne

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This is a good summary:
http://www.npr.org/2017/08/07/541797699/fact-check-does-the-u-s-have-the-highest-corporate-tax-rate-in-the-world

G20: 2.8%
American Corporations: 2.2%

Healthcare costs and student loans are two areas that need to be reined in. The best way to do that is cut back on the availability of money to fund both of them. In healthcare the outcomes aren't any better for all that is being spent. Colleges these days are just places kids goof off protesting stuff they don't even understand rack up debt having their heads filled with liberal nonsense instead of learning anything that prepares them with skills the market demands. 150k in student debt for an art history degree, then complain the interest isn't deductible.

LTLFTcomposite said:

Healthcare costs and student loans are two areas that need to be reined in. The best way to do that is cut back on the availability of money to fund both of them. In healthcare the outcomes aren't any better for all that is being spent. Colleges these days are just places kids goof off protesting stuff they don't even understand rack up debt having their heads filled with liberal nonsense instead of learning anything that prepares them with skills the market demands. 150k in student debt for an art history degree, then complain the interest isn't deductible.

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Is this Alex Jones???? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

BUSTED!!!

LTLFTcomposite said:

Healthcare costs and student loans are two areas that need to be reined in. The best way to do that is cut back on the availability of money to fund both of them.

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Yes, the USA has the highest healthcare costs of any of the advanced countries, and the worst health outcomes of any of the advanced countries.

A real problem, we can agree.

The U.S. has the highest rate of deaths amenable to health care among comparable countries.

I suspect that spending less money might increase the death rate, increase medical errors and reduce access to doctors.

Perhaps a solution is more complex than that?

WetEV said:

The U.S. has the highest rate of deaths amenable to health care among comparable countries.

I suspect that spending less money might increase the death rate, increase medical errors and reduce access to doctors.

Perhaps a solution is more complex than that?

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Last I looked the death rate is 100%. Everybody dies of something.
Cut spending on food stamps, obesity rate will drop as people can't afford so much fast food and packaged food, get more exercise because they will have an easier time finding a job with all the new investment, and diabetes rates will drop. Problem solved.

LTLFTcomposite said:

Colleges these days are just places kids goof off protesting stuff they don't even understand rack up debt having their heads filled with liberal nonsense instead of learning anything that prepares them with skills the market demands. 150k in student debt for an art history degree, then complain the interest isn't deductible.

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Oh dear lord.

http://www.npr.org/sections/money/2014/05/09/310114739/whats-your-major-four-decades-of-college-degrees-in-1-graph