2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

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ironmanco said:
SageBrush said:
You are confused about the plugging in routine. No problem plugging in when you get home; the smart behavior is to delay charging until a cooler time for all the routine days when the next use is the next day.
Click to expand...

This drives me crazy. Wouldn't a simple software/firmware update allow for better control of the battery charging? Instead of all of these smart chargers, why can't the embedded software/UI in the car accommodate the same functions that OpenEVSE, Juicebox, etc all do?

The above is more of a rhetorical question. I know it's possible and I know that Nissan made design decisions to only provide the functionality they did...but it still doesn't make it ok :)
Click to expand...
The single timer in my car works just fine for my family. More complex requirements can be solved by a $150 add-on that the JuiceBox people sell.

<<shrug>> I have bigger fish to fry
 
SageBrush said:
ironmanco said:
SageBrush said:
You are confused about the plugging in routine. No problem plugging in when you get home; the smart behavior is to delay charging until a cooler time for all the routine days when the next use is the next day.
Click to expand...

This drives me crazy. Wouldn't a simple software/firmware update allow for better control of the battery charging? Instead of all of these smart chargers, why can't the embedded software/UI in the car accommodate the same functions that OpenEVSE, Juicebox, etc all do?

The above is more of a rhetorical question. I know it's possible and I know that Nissan made design decisions to only provide the functionality they did...but it still doesn't make it ok :)
Click to expand...
The single timer in my car works just fine for my family. More complex requirements can be solved by a $150 add-on that the JuiceBox people sell.

<<shrug>> I have bigger fish to fry
Click to expand...

Yep - doesn't work for us. We have wildly varying schedules in the morning and multiple charge requirements. Not sure what $150 add-on you are referring to but if you are talking about the $199 juiceplug you are off by about 25% :)

Remember - there's a reason that all these companies are providing intelligent charging control. It's not because the love to develop apps for the fun of it. It's kind of like looking back at the most popular jailbroken applications - they are now fundamental aspects of iPhone iOS.
 
Play around with the charging start and end times all you want I really don't think it makes any significant difference. The problem is these batteries just don't hold up in non-cold climates.
And yes, increasingly losing range up to the point where the replacement kicks in is an issue. By the time the third bar drops the car is of pretty limited usefulness.
 
I took the time to check the battery voltage at various states of charge today. Started at 100% charge according to the dash monitor and 394.48 VDC (4.11 VDC per cell) The car is a 2016 30KWH with 72% SOH
charge battery cell
95% 389.44 4.05
90% 385.11 4.01
85% 383.75 4.00
75% 377.56 3.93
18% 346.02 3.60 LBW

The lowest I've ever taken the battery is 6% or just below VLBW That came out to 318 VDC or 3.31 VDC per cell. First it's obvious that battery voltage vs charge is non-linear ( at least according to Nissan's percentage gauge). The second is that there appears to to be little difference between charging to 90% vs 85%. The biggest drop occurs between 100% and 95%. Charging to 90% would look to be a fairly conservative strategy and discharging down to no less than LBW seems to be reasonable.

If possible could someone else do the same thing with their car? I would particularly like to verify the battery voltages for LBW and VLBW. Since these seem to be fixed at 50 GID's and 25 GID's, the voltages may vary depending on SOH.
 
SageBrush said:
LTLFTcomposite said:
That said, with an eight year warranty if Nissan wants to throw a new battery in every couple years do we really care?
Click to expand...
Of course we care. Otherwise consumers have to adjust their range estimates of the battery when new down by 40% or so to account for degradation before the warranty kicks in. And that is before the Winter-time correction.

You are confused about the plugging in routine. No problem plugging in when you get home; the smart behavior is to delay charging until a cooler time for all the routine days when the next use is the next day.

It is easy to say what "should" be engineered to accommodate any and all morons, but the car cost then increases.
Click to expand...

They need to be engineered to accommodate the mainstream buyers. Mainstream buyers are not going to mess with charge timers every day. They're not going to bother worrying about the battery temp when they charge. They will just want to plug it in when they get home and unplug it when they leave for work. Heck a lot of them will think plugging in every day is too much to do and won't bother until wireless charging is mainstream! There's a big difference between EV enthusiasts like most here and the average Joe mainstream driver. Bottom line is Nissan will have to fix this battery problem if they want their BEVs to go mainstream.
 
rcm4453 said:
SageBrush said:
LTLFTcomposite said:
That said, with an eight year warranty if Nissan wants to throw a new battery in every couple years do we really care?
Click to expand...
Of course we care. Otherwise consumers have to adjust their range estimates of the battery when new down by 40% or so to account for degradation before the warranty kicks in. And that is before the Winter-time correction.

You are confused about the plugging in routine. No problem plugging in when you get home; the smart behavior is to delay charging until a cooler time for all the routine days when the next use is the next day.

It is easy to say what "should" be engineered to accommodate any and all morons, but the car cost then increases.
Click to expand...

They need to be engineered to accommodate the mainstream buyers. Mainstream buyers are not going to mess with charge timers every day. They're not going to bother worrying about the battery temp when they charge. They will just want to plug it in when they get home and unplug it when they leave for work. Heck a lot of them will think plugging in every day is too much to do and won't bother until wireless charging is mainstream! There's a big difference between EV enthusiasts like most here and the average Joe mainstream driver. Bottom line is Nissan will have to fix this battery problem if they want their BEVs to go mainstream.
Click to expand...
Around 15 millions cars are sold in the US each year, while LEAF sales number in ~ 30k a year
It is going to be a while before mainstream stupidity is a force to be reckoned with
 
Plugging an EV in when you get home is stupidity?
Maybe I might or might not need to go out later in the evening. Maybe I want to be prepared. What if I have to take a sick child to the emergency room at 1AM and the charge timer doesn't start until 2AM? Apparently Nissan doesn't care about children. :lol:
 
SageBrush said:
rcm4453 said:
SageBrush said:
Of course we care. Otherwise consumers have to adjust their range estimates of the battery when new down by 40% or so to account for degradation before the warranty kicks in. And that is before the Winter-time correction.

You are confused about the plugging in routine. No problem plugging in when you get home; the smart behavior is to delay charging until a cooler time for all the routine days when the next use is the next day.

It is easy to say what "should" be engineered to accommodate any and all morons, but the car cost then increases.
Click to expand...

They need to be engineered to accommodate the mainstream buyers. Mainstream buyers are not going to mess with charge timers every day. They're not going to bother worrying about the battery temp when they charge. They will just want to plug it in when they get home and unplug it when they leave for work. Heck a lot of them will think plugging in every day is too much to do and won't bother until wireless charging is mainstream! There's a big difference between EV enthusiasts like most here and the average Joe mainstream driver. Bottom line is Nissan will have to fix this battery problem if they want their BEVs to go mainstream.
Click to expand...
Around 15 millions cars are sold in the US each year, while LEAF sales number in ~ 30k a year
It is going to be a while before mainstream stupidity is a force to be reckoned with
Click to expand...


Oh wow mainstream stupidity?! Really?! So you think the battery in the Leaf is acceptable? Look I hate to bust your bubble but it's total crap, the consumer shouldn't have to jump through all these hoops (mess with charge timers, plan around battery temp & SOC) just to try and save a crappy battery. People who bought a Tesla, Volt or Bolt don't have to bother with any of this so why should Leaf owners? After all it's a car not an ongoing science project or math problem!
 
rcm4453 said:
Oh wow mainstream stupidity?! Really?! So you think the battery in the Leaf is acceptable? Look I hate to bust your bubble but it's total crap, the consumer shouldn't have to jump through all these hoops (mess with charge timers, plan around battery temp & SOC) just to try and save a crappy battery. People who bought a Tesla, Volt or Bolt don't have to bother with any of this so why should Leaf owners? After all it's a car not an ongoing science project or math problem!
Click to expand...

I think the LEAF battery is somewhere between poor and garbage.
But anyone who thinks that trivial arithmetic at worse, or setting a timer is a "science project" is a moron.
 
SageBrush said:
But anyone who thinks that trivial arithmetic at worse, or setting a timer is a "science project" is a moron.
Click to expand...
(ignoring your condescending attitude) As I said, I don't want to delay charging when I get home, I want to start charging right away in case something comes up and I need to go somewhere. Sorry if that makes 99.999% of the car buying public morons, but the reality is most have no interest in learning about or dealing with these limitations. Gas cars present none of these issues and they are cheaper.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
(ignoring your condescending attitude) As I said, I don't want to delay charging when I get home, I want to start charging right away in case something comes up and I need to go somewhere. Sorry if that makes 99.999% of the car buying public morons, but the reality is most have no interest in learning about or dealing with these limitations. Gas cars present none of these issues and they are cheaper.
Click to expand...

I'm completely on-board here. We get WAY into the weeds here and it's great to understand how all of these systems and energy sources work together but when it comes right down to it...it's a car. In the bigger picture, we're all still considered to be early-adopters as it relates to the history of ICE vehicles. In fact, if we plotted it out on a scale, you would have to strain yourself to see where the Leaf falls on that chart.

As early-adopters, we bear the burden of getting to deal with the growing pains of this technology - in return of some of the benefits as well.

We'll look back on this as the dark-ages of the EV evolution and most likley laugh. In a couple of hundred years, someone is going to have a barn-find of a mint Leaf or other early generation EV and they will talk about how little we know about how to engineer EVs.
 
You wouldn't tolerate a ICE that required you to wait 3 hours to cool it off before you could drive it again. You probably wouldn't tolerate a 5 gal. gas tank either. The Leaf's saving grace is that you can plug it in when you get home and have a full charge in a few hours. That mitigates the short range to some extent. If you have to worry about when to charge and how long to leave it charged before using it, you have greatly diminished it's usability. Add to that, worries about how long the battery will last and how quickly it will degrade and it's a wonder that anyone would buy one.

The battery ought to last at least 10 years or 150,000 miles with no more than 20% loss of capacity. You expect that kind of durability from an ICE so why should you settle for anything less just because it's an electric. NIssan suggests that the car is supposed to last typically 100,000 miles or 10 years with 20% or less degradation. The battery should last the life of the car, the same as the engine in an ICE.

Nissan's warranty ought to include a guarantee against more than a 2% loss in capacity per year for a minimum of 8 years. Ten years would be better and would match the emissions warranty on an ICE. Afterall the reason to buy an electric is to reduce emissions in the first place. Also Nissan should provide a calibrated and easy to read capacity gauge preferably digital by percent. Not some vague nonlinear series of bars. And as long as I'm wishing for things that are never going to happen, how about an upgradeable battery pack?
 
Historically in our family we almost exclusively buy new cars, take decent care of them, and then typically replace them when they are about 12 years old. For all the folderol about EVs lasting forever because they don't have as many moving parts or whatever, unless the batteries hold up they really are for the birds from a financial standpoint.
We'll take all the free replacements packs we can get under the 8 year warranty, but if we get to the 10 year mark and need another pack I can guarantee you we won't be dropping $6k to get a 10 year old car two more years down the road.
 
johnlocke said:
If you have to worry about when to charge and how long to leave it charged before using it, you have greatly diminished it's usability.
Click to expand...
Setting the timer on our LEAF for an early AM charge has not diminished the car utility to me in the slightest.

We occasionally charge at other times. That requires a button push. :shock: :roll:
 
SageBrush said:
rcm4453 said:
Oh wow mainstream stupidity?! Really?! So you think the battery in the Leaf is acceptable? Look I hate to bust your bubble but it's total crap, the consumer shouldn't have to jump through all these hoops (mess with charge timers, plan around battery temp & SOC) just to try and save a crappy battery. People who bought a Tesla, Volt or Bolt don't have to bother with any of this so why should Leaf owners? After all it's a car not an ongoing science project or math problem!
Click to expand...

I think the LEAF battery is somewhere between poor and garbage.
But anyone who thinks that trivial arithmetic at worse, or setting a timer is a "science project" is a moron.
Click to expand...


Wow you really need to come down off your high horse! Why on earth would you think the consumer is a moron because Nissan screwed up big time with these 30 kwh batteries? Look, nobody in their right mind outside of a few REALLY enthusiastic people are going to mess with charge timers and battery temp monitoring. It definitely doesn’t make them a moron for not wanting to do that, after all, they SHOULDN’T have to do it! The most the consumer should really have as far as maintaining their battery is a user selectable SOC setting like Tesla has or the hilltop mode like Bolt EV has, that’s it, that’s all a properly designed BEV really needs for battery longevity. It should not be put on the consumer to find work around solutions or jump through unnecessary hoops because Nissan dropped the ball.
 
johnlocke said:
The battery ought to last at least 10 years or 150,000 miles with no more than 20% loss of capacity. You expect that kind of durability from an ICE so why should you settle for anything less just because it's an electric.
Click to expand...

I bought a Volvo 850 in 1997 new from the dealer, and it was considered to be the best of the bunch. At 135,000 miles I gave it to by brother in law as it started to run like crap. However in the interim this is what happened:

I replaced the radiator because it started to overheat.
I replaced the water pump three times, along with the thermostat as part of the regular maintenance
I replaced the drive belt and timing belt twice
I replaced the AC evaporator behind the dash, the condenser, the compressor and the hoses because the AC stopped working because of a leak.
I replaced the complete EGR system
I replaced engine mounts and transmission mounts, twice
I replaced the complete suspension system
I changed plugs and plug cap and rotor every 30,000 miles and I changed the plug wires.
I also changed the gas recirc pump
I replaced the steering rack
I spoiled the car with full synthetic from day one, including transmission and brake fluid flushes as prescribed by Volvo
Plus I had to buy gas as it gave me 24 mpg from the start. This list is not everything either.

All this before 135,000 miles until the car started bugging out when I tried to start it in the morning. All the maintenance I did as I bought tools to do it myself to save money. I then went on YouTube and Volvo forums to know what to do. I am now a self proclaimed expert on the 850s

I have a '15 SV in the Atlanta suburbs, and my company is moving me to Miami in June 2018. I will take what I have been taught from this forum and use it in the heat of South Florida. If the battery starts to fail it will not come close to what I spent on the Volvo. Also, don't get me started on the twin turbo AMG

In short, let us not pretend that the Leaf is a car from hell, because there are worst examples out there that are ICE. The main difference is that some Leaf owners complain much more, while i only got 4 years and 50,000 miles... yeah, this was all after 50k
 
Jedlacks said:
johnlocke said:
The battery ought to last at least 10 years or 150,000 miles with no more than 20% loss of capacity. You expect that kind of durability from an ICE so why should you settle for anything less just because it's an electric.
Click to expand...

I bought a Volvo 850 in 1997 new from the dealer, and it was considered to be the best of the bunch. At 135,000 miles I gave it to by brother in law as it started to run like crap. However in the interim this is what happened:

I replaced the radiator because it started to overheat.
I replaced the water pump three times, along with the thermostat as part of the regular maintenance
I replaced the drive belt and timing belt twice
I replaced the AC evaporator behind the dash, the condenser, the compressor and the hoses because the AC stopped working because of a leak.
I replaced the complete EGR system
I replaced engine mounts and transmission mounts, twice
I replaced the complete suspension system
I changed plugs and plug cap and rotor every 30,000 miles and I changed the plug wires.
I also changed the gas recirc pump
I replaced the steering rack
I spoiled the car with full synthetic from day one, including transmission and brake fluid flushes as prescribed by Volvo
Plus I had to buy gas as it gave me 24 mpg from the start. This list is not everything either.

All this before 135,000 miles until the car started bugging out when I tried to start it in the morning. All the maintenance I did as I bought tools to do it myself to save money. I then went on YouTube and Volvo forums to know what to do. I am now a self proclaimed expert on the 850s

I have a '15 SV in the Atlanta suburbs, and my company is moving me to Miami in June 2018. I will take what I have been taught from this forum and use it in the heat of South Florida. If the battery starts to fail it will not come close to what I spent on the Volvo. Also, don't get me started on the twin turbo AMG

In short, let us not pretend that the Leaf is a car from hell, because there are worst examples out there that are ICE. The main difference is that some Leaf owners complain much more, while i only got 4 years and 50,000 miles... yeah, this was all after 50k
Click to expand...

Excellent post. Don't get me started on our (former) pontiac, our GMC truck or our jeep. All money pits. We are in year three with our smart ED and put lots of miles on it. So far, zero maintenance, and I have only put two gallons of gas in it, and that was in a can, for my lawnmower. (Since replaced by an electric) We have only had our Leaf for a year and so far it hasn't cost a dime either. (they did the tire rotate for free). We live in a cooler climate so not sure how soon we'll see a battery degradation. We have seen virtually none on the smart.
 
webeleafowners said:
Jedlacks said:
johnlocke said:
The battery ought to last at least 10 years or 150,000 miles with no more than 20% loss of capacity. You expect that kind of durability from an ICE so why should you settle for anything less just because it's an electric.
Click to expand...

I bought a Volvo 850 in 1997 new from the dealer, and it was considered to be the best of the bunch. At 135,000 miles I gave it to by brother in law as it started to run like crap. However in the interim this is what happened:

<snip list of repairs>

In short, let us not pretend that the Leaf is a car from hell, because there are worst examples out there that are ICE. The main difference is that some Leaf owners complain much more, while i only got 4 years and 50,000 miles... yeah, this was all after 50k
Click to expand...
Excellent post. Don't get me started on our (former) pontiac, our GMC truck or our jeep. All money pits. We are in year three with our smart ED and put lots of miles on it. So far, zero maintenance, and I have only put two gallons of gas in it, and that was in a can, for my lawnmower. (Since replaced by an electric) We have only had our Leaf for a year and so far it hasn't cost a dime either. (they did the tire rotate for free). We live in a cooler climate so not sure how soon we'll see a battery degradation. We have seen virtually none on the smart.
Click to expand...
The thing is, although there are occasional exceptions in particular models, every brand you name has been known for generally poor reliability (anything from FCA in particular), so that's an argument about specific cars, not ICEs in general. If you were to ask the typical Toyota, or Honda, or Subaru owner, or less anecdotally look at Consumer Reports reliability ratings, cars from those brands tend to be far more reliable. My current Subaru turns 15 in January. Total unscheduled maintenance? Zip.

My previous Subie, 14.5 years old when stolen? Radiator replacement (out of warranty IIRR), plus I think one unscheduled head gasket, plus timing belts every 40k (which was actually known to be an issue, and it may have been scheduled maintenance) . My '65 Impala (back when GM built mostly reliable cars, although my dad's car that preceded that, his '61 Corvair, was a PoS)? 23 years and 240,000 miles in the family, with IIRR only a water pump needing replacement, and still going strong when sold (it did burn/leak a quart of oil every 400 miles by then, but it had never had the heads off so not surprising) .

All of these are as anecdotal as yours, but are representative of cars which are generally reliable. The public simply isn't going to and shouldn't have to acquire the kind of esoteric knowledge or do the kind babying that battery packs like Nissan's design require in anything other than benign climates. They'll pass.
 
LTLFTcomposite said:
Gas cars present none of these issues and they are cheaper.
Click to expand...

Gas cars are cheaper if gas is free. Otherwise, you have to crunch the numbers on 'cheaper'. For me, with the gas I'd use, its cheaper to have an EV and change the battery every few years. You'll have to run your own numbers based on your mileage and economy, but for many EV owners, EV is cheaper.
 
Jedlacks said:
johnlocke said:
The battery ought to last at least 10 years or 150,000 miles with no more than 20% loss of capacity. You expect that kind of durability from an ICE so why should you settle for anything less just because it's an electric.
Click to expand...

I bought a Volvo 850 in 1997 new from the dealer, and it was considered to be the best of the bunch. At 135,000 miles I gave it to by brother in law as it started to run like crap. However in the interim this is what happened:

I replaced the radiator because it started to overheat.
I replaced the water pump three times, along with the thermostat as part of the regular maintenance
I replaced the drive belt and timing belt twice
I replaced the AC evaporator behind the dash, the condenser, the compressor and the hoses because the AC stopped working because of a leak.
I replaced the complete EGR system
I replaced engine mounts and transmission mounts, twice
I replaced the complete suspension system
I changed plugs and plug cap and rotor every 30,000 miles and I changed the plug wires.
I also changed the gas recirc pump
I replaced the steering rack
I spoiled the car with full synthetic from day one, including transmission and brake fluid flushes as prescribed by Volvo
Plus I had to buy gas as it gave me 24 mpg from the start. This list is not everything either.

All this before 135,000 miles until the car started bugging out when I tried to start it in the morning. All the maintenance I did as I bought tools to do it myself to save money. I then went on YouTube and Volvo forums to know what to do. I am now a self proclaimed expert on the 850s

I have a '15 SV in the Atlanta suburbs, and my company is moving me to Miami in June 2018. I will take what I have been taught from this forum and use it in the heat of South Florida. If the battery starts to fail it will not come close to what I spent on the Volvo. Also, don't get me started on the twin turbo AMG

In short, let us not pretend that the Leaf is a car from hell, because there are worst examples out there that are ICE. The main difference is that some Leaf owners complain much more, while i only got 4 years and 50,000 miles... yeah, this was all after 50k
Click to expand...


Obviously your Volvo 850 was a lemon or badly engineered. Most people who buy reliable cars like a Camry or Accord do not have the same experience you did. Yeah it sucks all those things went bad on your car but none of those repairs that you listed cost $6,000 to replace, which is what a new battery for a Leaf costs.

Plus once you repaired the car you still got pretty much all the range that you got when the vehicle was new. Now imagine if your gas tank on that Volvo kept shrinking giving you less and less range after the car was only 1.5 - 2 years old?! On top of that now imagine the garage saying it would cost you $6,000 to replace your gas tank! Now do you see where I'm going with this? These 30kwh Leafs are never going to make 135,000 miles like your Volvo did before requiring a $6,000 new battery (granted they are under warranty but that's beside the point).


johnlocke is 100% correct.....the battery should last at least 10 years or 150,000 miles with no more than 20% loss of capacity.
 

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