Official Honda Clarity FCEV/BEV/PHEV thread

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edatoakrun said:
GRA said:
Via IEVS and GCR, 459 Clarity BEVs were sold/leased in November! Beats me why...
If you were a BEV driver, you might understand...

I've been a BEV driver for almost 6 years, and I also don't understand. Please enlighten us, Ed.

My best guess would be a strong loyalty to either the brand or the sedan form factor. Those are the only things that make the Clarity different from the slew of 100+ mile BEVs selling for a similar price.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
edatoakrun said:
GRA said:
Via IEVS and GCR, 459 Clarity BEVs were sold/leased in November! Beats me why...
If you were a BEV driver, you might understand...
I've been a BEV driver for almost 6 years, and I also don't understand. Please enlighten us, Ed.

My best guess would be a strong loyalty to either the brand or the sedan form factor. Those are the only things that make the Clarity different from the slew of 100+ mile BEVs selling for a similar price.
That's the only thing I can think of that sets it apart, but that doesn't require that I drive it. Once the regular range Model 3 arrives, a BEV sedan with ~ 2.5 times the range for not much more money, the value proposition of the Clarity drops even further. For those not wedded to a sedan, the Soul/e-Golf/Ionic/2018 LEAF all provide at least 110 miles of range and four or five seats for the same or less money as the Clarity.
 
The clarity BEV is a relatively large sedan, reportedly having very nice appointments, many features and quality fit-and finish, and is available for very attractive lease terms, $700 down and 199/mo for a 36 month, 20k mile-per-year lease.

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-series?ef_id=1:1:1&CID=SEARCH_HON_GOOGLE_FY18_SERIES_BRD&gclid=COjDnouN-dcCFcydfgodwKMHEA&gclsrc=ds

I'm not at all surprised that some lessees have preferred it to a more expensive lease on a smaller LEAF/Golf/Soul/Ioniq hatch, with fewer features.

If 89 miles EPA range is enough for you, it is enough for you, which is the case for many drivers in the CA/OR coastal population centers, now that DC charge sites are ubiquitous.

As to the Tesla 3, the lease+maintenance costs of the base model (if and when it ever becomes available) will probably be (post incentives) two to three times that of the Clarity.

The model 3 just will not competitive with the Clarity, or any of the other BEVs mentioned, in terms of cost.

GRA said:
GetOffYourGas said:
edatoakrun said:
If you were a BEV driver, you might understand...
I've been a BEV driver for almost 6 years, and I also don't understand. Please enlighten us, Ed.

My best guess would be a strong loyalty to either the brand or the sedan form factor. Those are the only things that make the Clarity different from the slew of 100+ mile BEVs selling for a similar price.
That's the only thing I can think of that sets it apart, but that doesn't require that I drive it. Once the regular range Model 3 arrives, a BEV sedan with ~ 2.5 times the range for not much more money, the value proposition of the Clarity drops even further. For those not wedded to a sedan, the Soul/e-Golf/Ionic/2018 LEAF all provide at least 110 miles of range and four or five seats for the same or less money as the Clarity.
 
edatoakrun said:
The clarity BEV is a relatively large sedan, reportedly having very nice appointments, many features and quality fit-and finish, and is available for very attractive lease terms, $700 down and 199/mo for a 36 month, 20k mile-per-year lease.

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-series?ef_id=1:1:1&CID=SEARCH_HON_GOOGLE_FY18_SERIES_BRD&gclid=COjDnouN-dcCFcydfgodwKMHEA&gclsrc=ds

I'm not at all surprised that some lessees have preferred it to a more expensive lease on a smaller LEAF/Golf/Soul/Ioniq hatch, with fewer features.

If 89 miles EPA range is enough for you, it is enough for you, which is the case for many drivers in the CA/OR coastal population centers, now that DC charge sites are ubiquitous.
Pretty much all of your comments also apply to the PHEV, which has the advantage of being anyone's sole car and which will still be usable a decade from now.

edatoakrun said:
As to the Tesla 3, the lease+maintenance costs of the base model (if and when it ever becomes available) will probably be (post incentives) two to three times that of the Clarity.

The model 3 just will not competitive with the Clarity, or any of the other BEVs mentioned, in terms of cost.
Guess we'll see. Of course, the Clarity ought to be a lot less expensive, given it only has 40% of the range, will always be restricted to a commute/local car and pretty much requires that you also have a 2nd car, which isn't the case with the 200+ mile BEVs for many people. As long as you're not taking multi-day road trips but just weekend ones that require no more than a single QC each way, 200+ miles is fine.
 
GRA said:
edatoakrun said:
The clarity BEV is a relatively large sedan, reportedly having very nice appointments, many features and quality fit-and finish, and is available for very attractive lease terms, $700 down and 199/mo for a 36 month, 20k mile-per-year lease.

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-series?ef_id=1:1:1&CID=SEARCH_HON_GOOGLE_FY18_SERIES_BRD&gclid=COjDnouN-dcCFcydfgodwKMHEA&gclsrc=ds

I'm not at all surprised that some lessees have preferred it to a more expensive lease on a smaller LEAF/Golf/Soul/Ioniq hatch, with fewer features.

If 89 miles EPA range is enough for you, it is enough for you, which is the case for many drivers in the CA/OR coastal population centers, now that DC charge sites are ubiquitous.
Pretty much all of your comments also apply to the PHEV, which has the advantage of being anyone's sole car and which will still be usable a decade from now...
A decade from now any passenger vehicle with less than ~20 kWh available battery capacity AND no DC charge port will likely be regarded as nearly useless.

Due to the high maintenance cost and inconvenience of petroleum fueled ICE's A decade from now, a range extender will only be of benefit to those vehicles with sufficient battery capacity to ensure it only rarely needs to be utilized.

The stagnation of Volt sales with the introduction of the Bolt is just the first indication of the PHEVs inability to compete with BEVs.

Once the mis-allocated federal tax credits terminate for PHEVs, whether next year or later, PHEV sales will quickly dwindle.
 
edatoakrun said:
A decade from now any passenger vehicle with less than ~20 kWh available battery capacity AND no DC charge port will likely be regarded as nearly useless.

Due to the high maintenance cost and inconvenience of petroleum fueled ICE's A decade from now, a range extender will only be of benefit to those vehicles with sufficient battery capacity to ensure it only rarely needs to be utilized.

The collapse of Volt sales with the introduction of the Bolt is just the first indication of the PHEVs inability to compete with BEVs.

I'll have what he's having! :lol:
 
Push trailers are the future, just look at all the start up companies in that space. There should be many models available for the LEAF in the spring. :roll:
 
edatoakrun said:
GRA said:
edatoakrun said:
The clarity BEV is a relatively large sedan, reportedly having very nice appointments, many features and quality fit-and finish, and is available for very attractive lease terms, $700 down and 199/mo for a 36 month, 20k mile-per-year lease.

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-series?ef_id=1:1:1&CID=SEARCH_HON_GOOGLE_FY18_SERIES_BRD&gclid=COjDnouN-dcCFcydfgodwKMHEA&gclsrc=ds

I'm not at all surprised that some lessees have preferred it to a more expensive lease on a smaller LEAF/Golf/Soul/Ioniq hatch, with fewer features.

If 89 miles EPA range is enough for you, it is enough for you, which is the case for many drivers in the CA/OR coastal population centers, now that DC charge sites are ubiquitous.
Pretty much all of your comments also apply to the PHEV, which has the advantage of being anyone's sole car and which will still be usable a decade from now...
A decade from now any passenger vehicle with less than ~20 kWh available battery capacity AND no DC charge port will likely be regarded as nearly useless.

Due to the high maintenance cost and inconvenience of petroleum fueled ICE's A decade from now, a range extender will only be of benefit to those vehicles with sufficient battery capacity to ensure it only rarely needs to be utilized.

The stagnation of Volt sales with the introduction of the Bolt is just the first indication of the PHEVs inability to compete with BEVs.

Once the mis-allocated federal tax credits terminate for PHEVs, whether next year or later, PHEV sales will quickly dwindle.
The routine daily driving distance of over 80% of all U.S. drivers can be handled by the Clarity PHEV when new, and probably still more than 50% when a decade old; the car will still be completely usable by anyone, unlike the case of the Clarity BEV, so the long term value is much higher for the PHEV. You seem to be assuming a much faster transition away from fossil-fueled ICEs than is probable.

As to the stagnation of Volt sales, the Bolt's still the new kid on the block, and I expect lots of people are taking advantage of the fed. tax credits while they're still around. But if they go away, the value proposition of the two cars will shift in favor of the Volt. Then there are environmental and infrastructure factors which will also tilt preferences one way or the other, which for example is undoubtedly why the Volt continues to outsell the Bolt in Canada. The same thing may be happening in Norway:
In Norway, Plug-In Hybrids Set 4th Sales Record In A Row, Tesla Surges
https://insideevs.com/in-norway-plug-in-hybrids-set-4th-sales-record-in-a-row/
. . . In total, 5,813 new passenger plug-ins were registered last month (up 35.4% year-over-year), leading to an ultra-high 42.3% market share.

  • BEVs 2,704 (up 5.5%, good for a 19.7% market share) + 1,128 ‘used’ plug-ins + 112 vans (85 new and 27 used) + 3 FCV
    PHEVs 3,109 (up 79.7%, good for 22.6% market share)

All-electric sales were just slightly higher than one year ago, but PHEVs surged by almost 80% to 3,109 and grabbed 22.6% market share.

The best selling PHEV model in November was the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV (393) followed by new Volvo XC60 T8 (322). . . .

As for those all-electric sales and slight overall gains for the month, it was all Tesla’s doing. The best selling plug-in models last month were the Tesla Model S & Model X, as Tesla delivered 501 and 495, respectively – a new “non last month of the quarter” record for the company in the country
Of course, if PEVs continue to be bought mainly by enthusiasts as they are now, then BEVs may well make up the majority, but if that's the case they will remain a tiny fraction of overall sales.
 
Drove a PHEV Clarity the other night. PHEV/BEV discussion aside the Clarity is a very well put together vehicle. Fit and finish far surpasses the leaf. Ride quality is very good. Road/engine noise is surprisingly low. The interior volume and appointments are amazing. I’ve test driven a Volt previously and would not consider the Volt compared to the Clarity. If your in the market for a PHEV give one a ride.
 
Foschas said:
Drove a PHEV Clarity the other night. PHEV/BEV discussion aside the Clarity is a very well put together vehicle. Fit and finish far surpasses the leaf. Ride quality is very good. Road/engine noise is surprisingly low. The interior volume and appointments are amazing. I’ve test driven a Volt previously and would not consider the Volt compared to the Clarity. If your in the market for a PHEV give one a ride.
Yes, the PHEV (looks aside, a problem with all Claritys) is a decent car. Given the choice, which version would you choose?
 
Foschas said:
Drove a PHEV Clarity the other night. PHEV/BEV discussion aside the Clarity is a very well put together vehicle. Fit and finish far surpasses the leaf. Ride quality is very good. Road/engine noise is surprisingly low. The interior volume and appointments are amazing. I’ve test driven a Volt previously and would not consider the Volt compared to the Clarity. If your in the market for a PHEV give one a ride.
Thanks for the review!

I see you are in MA. Does anyone know if the Clarity is a compliance car like all previous plug-in Hondas (and the Fit EV was not particularly available, even in CA), or will it have actual availability across the country?
 
RegGuheert said:
[Does anyone know if the Clarity is a compliance car like all previous plug-in Hondas (and the Fit EV was not particularly available, even in CA), or will it have actual availability across the country?

BEV version is California and Oregon only. FCEV is even more limited, available only within a certain radius of known hydrogen fuel cell stations. PHEV appears to be available where most of the population lives if not all 50 states.
 
GRA said:
For those not wedded to a sedan, the Soul/e-Golf/Ionic/2018 LEAF all provide at least 110 miles of range and four or five seats for the same or less money as the Clarity.

If you need to seat 5 adults, a car as large as the Clarity is a lot more comfortable than the other choices. Around 5 inches more back seat hip room than a Leaf and considerably more leg room as well.

To be honest, at that low a lease price I would consider a Clarity if it weren't for the fact that I'm likely going to buy out the lease of my eGolf.
 
RonDawg said:
BEV version is California and Oregon only. FCEV is even more limited, available only within a certain radius of known hydrogen fuel cell stations. PHEV appears to be available where most of the population lives if not all 50 states.
Thanks! It's clear why Honda would limit the availability of the H2 FCV, but I cannot understand why they have decided to restrict the availability of their BEVs.
 
RegGuheert said:
RonDawg said:
BEV version is California and Oregon only. FCEV is even more limited, available only within a certain radius of known hydrogen fuel cell stations. PHEV appears to be available where most of the population lives if not all 50 states.
Thanks! It's clear why Honda would limit the availability of the H2 FCV, but I cannot understand why they have decided to restrict the availability of their BEVs.
Because they know 89 mile BEVs have a very limited market in the U.S., outside of major urban areas of CARB states, especially California where they at least get HOV stickers as a perk. A few other areas give them free parking. The market will shrink even more if the fed. tax credits go away, and now that California is going to time limit the HOV stickers to four years going forward, their long-term value will also drop. We may see even more of a shift to leasing instead of buying in California due to that, because those stickers are worth more to most people (in monetized time savings and reduced stress) than any monetary subsidy being offered.
 
RonDawg said:
RegGuheert said:
[Does anyone know if the Clarity is a compliance car like all previous plug-in Hondas (and the Fit EV was not particularly available, even in CA), or will it have actual availability across the country?

BEV version is California and Oregon only. FCEV is even more limited, available only within a certain radius of known hydrogen fuel cell stations. PHEV appears to be available where most of the population lives if not all 50 states.
Actually, I believe it's just limited to being available at 12 dealers at the moment, which happen to be within range of numerous H2 stations. Whether they'd lease you one if you didn't have a convenient station, I have no idea. IOW, are they willing to take the chance that idiots will lease them, or do they screen to prevent that?

[Edit] It appears we may both be right, as I found this statement:
Clarity Fuel Cell is currently only available through authorized Honda Clarity Fuel Cell dealers in California to residents of California living or working in proximity to a hydrogen fueling station.
That seems to indicate that they do screen to at least some extent.

As for the PHEV, Honda has said it (and only the PHEV) will be available in all 50 states.
 
I know with the first-gen Clarity, they were only offering them to lessees who lived or worked near Honda's USA HQ in Torrance, CA, since almost all of the few hydrogen fueling stations at that time were in LA's South Bay. It wouldn't make sense to offer a car to someone with no refueling infrastructure nearby.

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-fuel-cell has a "Check Eligibility" link on it, and it says I'm eligible to lease the car. I do know there's an ARCO about 5 miles away from my home with a hydrogen refueling station.
 
RonDawg said:
I know with the first-gen Clarity, they were only offering them to lessees who lived or worked near Honda's USA HQ in Torrance, CA, since almost all of the few hydrogen fueling stations at that time were in LA's South Bay. It wouldn't make sense to offer a car to someone with no refueling infrastructure nearby.

https://automobiles.honda.com/clarity-fuel-cell has a "Check Eligibility" link on it, and it says I'm eligible to lease the car. I do know there's an ARCO about 5 miles away from my home with a hydrogen refueling station.
I played around a bit to see how far away I could get form a station before I would be ruled ineligible, but only got about 10 miles or so away before I needed to do something else.
 
Via IEVS:
Honda Offers $6,500 Lease Credit On Clarity PHEV, But Only In ZEV States
https://insideevs.com/honda-offers-6500-lease-credit-clarity-phev-zev-states/

Honda has made a brazen decision to offer a generous lease credit of $6,500 on the Clarity PHEV, but only if you live in these states…
California
Connecticut
Maine
Maryland
Massachusetts
New Jersey
New York
Oregon
Rhode Island
Vermont . . . .

As it turns out, Honda is willing to cut you a pretty swell lease deal on the Clarity PHEV, provided you live in the states listed above. What Honda is doing is simple. It’s passing on the majority of the $7,500 the Clarity PHEV qualifies for, but only in some states.

In other states like Florida, where a disgusted potential buyer tried to sign a lease deal, that money is all pocketed by Honda. There’s no $6,500 lease credit. In fact, there’s no lease credit at all. . . .
Getting traveling ZEV credits while the getting's good, I guess. I wonder if they'll expand this nationwide once 1/1/18 rolls around, assuming congress doesn't kill the tax credit entirely. IIRR, traveling ZEV credits end at the end of this year.

Also IEVS:
2018 Honda Clarity PHEV Test Drive Review
https://insideevs.com/2018-honda-clarity-phev-test-drive-review/

15.5 cu. ft trunk, and good shape:
2018-honda-clarity-plug-in-hybrid-first-drive-7.jpg


The Fusion Energi is going to need replacement by a mid-sized PHEV that doesn't just dump the battery under the cargo area. Driving dynamics are okay though not exciting, but the engine's apparently noisy under high power (climbing hills), and the regen paddles don't seem to do much. One IEVS poster commented on cold weather ICE issues:

Was very seriously considering this car, but learned while reading the manual that a battery heating system is not included in the US model. Result: Will not start in battery temperatures below -22F, and engine must run in temperatures below 14F (not sure if that’s also due to lack of a battery heater). Not the most encouraging setup up north in the winter. Canadian models get a battery heater, which I’m assuming will help the need for the engine to run.

Owner (since 12/5) review starts here: http://www.insideevsforum.com/commu...da-clarity-the-volt-challenger.292/#post-1950

GCR first drive review here: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1114263_2018-honda-clarity-plug-in-hybrid-first-drive

ABG's version: https://www.autoblog.com/2017/12/12/2018-honda-clarity-plug-in-hybrid-review-first-drive/
 
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