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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:57 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
DaveinOlyWA wrote:WOW! This is monumental news! But also means people will use SCs for commercial purposes without telling Tesla... I suspect Uber's and others will do what they can to skirt this.
Tesla knows perfectly well where cars spend their time and where they charge. Someone elsewhere pointed out that the new policy is carefully worded to say that they "may" limit or block use of Superchargers, so they have some flexibility in applying it. My guess is that casual part time use for Uber won't trigger the block but that it is intended for livery usage, already a problem in some places, notably in Amsterdam.

EVDRIVER wrote:Tesla should just limit local Supercharging, This is easy to do in the software and should have been done a long time ago. Some SCs are full of owners that live literally blocks away. The network will be almost intolerable if they don't do this in at least some key markets.
Tesla has been quite clear that owners who do not have access to home or work charging are welcome to use the Supercharger network. In some places, such as Hong Kong, most owners do not have home charging. By charging a reasonable fee for Supercharging for all Model 3s plus the idle fee for all cars, they should be able to raise some revenue to expand crowded Supercharger locations. This is happening in Southern California, where San Clemente is taking some of the pressure off of perpetually crowded San Juan Capistrano and crowded Fountain Valley is being expanded.

Give it some time and we can see how things shake out. Tesla certainly has opened a lot of new Supercharger stalls in California in the last year and I would expect that to continue if the Model 3 launch is successful.



They give enough free Kwh with a 3 for city people to not have to pay. The SCs in this area are almost already useless for travelers and even if they opened up 5 more locations it's going to make a significant difference. One now one opened blocks from the SM SC and it was loaded in a few days with no relief on the other. Tesla's original rule was no SC for local use but they do not enforce it as they used it as an incentive to see more Model S cars. In rural areas it likely not a concern at all in major cities it's likely going to get ugly. charging $.20 a kw is not going to make a dent on behavior or metro buildout.
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abasile
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:49 am

EVDRIVER wrote:Now if they would just limit supercharging to outside owners geographic area it will make the system useful. Far too many local people have no home charging and charge to 100% sometimes daily clogging up statins. The policy above should have been in place a long time ago and I'm not sure how they intend to enforce it. Many car services use certain stations many times daily.

While this is a real problem, I would be very disappointed with a policy that completely prohibits the use of "local" Superchargers. What if I'm on my way home from a long drive and need a quick boost to finish the drive? Or what if I've just returned home, the car's charge is low, and I find myself needing to make an unexpected trip?

In the end, the only fair, sustainable solution will be for Tesla to charge Supercharging fees (and idle fees) that align with the true costs. Then they won't have to worry about coming up with complicated use policies that make gas stations seem simple by comparison. I understand that Tesla's current SC fees are well below the true costs, particularly in areas with hefty electrical demand fees, and that this has been helpful in building from scratch a market for long range BEVs.

It seems that Tesla's long term strategy, as evidenced by their plans for Megachargers for Tesla Semi, is to reduce those costs wherever possible by installing large solar arrays coupled with Powerpacks for energy storage. That's a capital intensive strategy, though, so one can envision the potential use of "charging infrastructure bonds" for financing, much like today's solar bonds.
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sun Dec 17, 2017 9:55 am

abasile wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:Now if they would just limit supercharging to outside owners geographic area it will make the system useful. Far too many local people have no home charging and charge to 100% sometimes daily clogging up statins. The policy above should have been in place a long time ago and I'm not sure how they intend to enforce it. Many car services use certain stations many times daily.

While this is a real problem, I would be very disappointed with a policy that completely prohibits the use of "local" Superchargers. What if I'm on my way home from a long drive and need a quick boost to finish the drive? Or what if I've just returned home, the car's charge is low, and I find myself needing to make an unexpected trip?

In the end, the only fair, sustainable solution will be for Tesla to charge Supercharging fees (and idle fees) that align with the true costs. Then they won't have to worry about coming up with complicated use policies that make gas stations seem simple by comparison. I understand that Tesla's current SC fees are well below the true costs, particularly in areas with hefty electrical demand fees, and that this has been helpful in building from scratch a market for long range BEVs.

It seems that Tesla's long term strategy, as evidenced by their plans for Megachargers for Tesla Semi, is to reduce those costs wherever possible by installing large solar arrays coupled with Powerpacks for energy storage. That's a capital intensive strategy, though, so one can envision the potential use of "charging infrastructure bonds" for financing, much like today's solar bonds.



Clearly they can limit it to eliminate abuse and I'm confident the abuse will be pretty bad. It's already happening in some markets and there will soon be a flood of newbie EV owners that love to charge from 90-100 every day, there are many already believe it or not. Those that don't live in these areas are should have limited issues.
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sun Dec 17, 2017 11:55 am

EVDRIVER wrote:Tesla should just limit local Supercharging, This is easy to do in the software and should have been done a long time ago. Some SCs are full of owners that live literally blocks away. The network will be almost intolerable if they don't do this in at least some key markets.


Renters are a legitimate market that need to be served. The problem seems easy enough to solve by charging a fair rate that not only serves to make the network more self-sustaining, but also removes the incentive for misers to camp at superchargers instead of charging at home when available.
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sun Dec 17, 2017 12:49 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:They give enough free Kwh with a 3 for city people to not have to pay...
Do they? When the pay model for Supercharging was announced for the S and X it was to include 400 kWh per year free. Does that apply to the Model 3? I haven't seen anything one way or another but you are way closer to the Tesla folks than I am.

Even if the 400 kWh per year does apply to the Model 3, locals camping out at Superchargers will use that up pretty quickly and start having to pay. That ought to discourage them from using the Superchargers unless they don't have home or work charging available. If the 20¢/kWh in California is too low to discourage such charging by those who don't need it, perhaps the fee can be raised.

The problem with restrictions on the local use of Superchargers is that it prevents those who don't have home/work charging, including most renters and many condo/townhouse owners, from being able to drive a Tesla. A better solution is to increase the number of Supercharger Stations and stalls to reduce crowding, something Tesla has been attempting to do. The revenue from Model 3 charging ought to help with this.
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sun Dec 17, 2017 1:17 pm

dgpcolorado wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:They give enough free Kwh with a 3 for city people to not have to pay...
Do they? When the pay model for Supercharging was announced for the S and X it was to include 400 kWh per year free. Does that apply to the Model 3? I haven't seen anything one way or another but you are way closer to the Tesla folks than I am.

Even if the 400 kWh per year does apply to the Model 3, locals camping out at Superchargers will use that up pretty quickly and start having to pay. That ought to discourage them from using the Superchargers unless they don't have home or work charging available. If the 20¢/kWh in California is too low to discourage such charging by those who don't need it, perhaps the fee can be raised.

The problem with restrictions on the local use of Superchargers is that it prevents those who don't have home/work charging, including most renters and many condo/townhouse owners, from being able to drive a Tesla. A better solution is to increase the number of Supercharger Stations and stalls to reduce crowding, something Tesla has been attempting to do. The revenue from Model 3 charging ought to help with this.



Building enough SCs in cities like SF and surrounding areas is extremely costly and with an insane number of 3's that will be owned here is will be really bad. If they open every proposed SC this year in the bay area it's going to do nothing to reduce the load of the new cars. Few 3 owners will care less about $.20 a Kwh as it's a complete steal compared to gas and PGE rates here, it won't just be those with no charging it will be large numbers of people capitalizing on low cost SCs. Tesla will never open up enough SCs to solve this issue in these areas and I bet they will be crowded until very late hours. Most bay area SCs are used by locals primarily ask any attendant at some of the stations. Tesla certainly should limit local owners to specific SOC, this would be a HUGE benefit as so many people just top off wasting stall time for 10% SOC. I see this every time I am traveling from LA and up north trying to get a stall. The vast majority of SC charge users in this area are highly ignorant to EV charging and worse. It's not just tesla drivers as well are well aware. Tesla does a terrible job educating customers on charging in general for SC use.
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sun Dec 17, 2017 2:21 pm

abasile wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:Now if they would just limit supercharging to outside owners geographic area it will make the system useful. Far too many local people have no home charging and charge to 100% sometimes daily clogging up statins. The policy above should have been in place a long time ago and I'm not sure how they intend to enforce it. Many car services use certain stations many times daily.

While this is a real problem, I would be very disappointed with a policy that completely prohibits the use of "local" Superchargers. What if I'm on my way home from a long drive and need a quick boost to finish the drive? Or what if I've just returned home, the car's charge is low, and I find myself needing to make an unexpected trip?

In the end, the only fair, sustainable solution will be for Tesla to charge Supercharging fees (and idle fees) that align with the true costs. Then they won't have to worry about coming up with complicated use policies that make gas stations seem simple by comparison. I understand that Tesla's current SC fees are well below the true costs, particularly in areas with hefty electrical demand fees, and that this has been helpful in building from scratch a market for long range BEVs.

It seems that Tesla's long term strategy, as evidenced by their plans for Megachargers for Tesla Semi, is to reduce those costs wherever possible by installing large solar arrays coupled with Powerpacks for energy storage. That's a capital intensive strategy, though, so one can envision the potential use of "charging infrastructure bonds" for financing, much like today's solar bonds.
Yes I agree a local supercharger should have minimal free charging to a local or frequented guest.

Such as everyone allowed 10 minutes a week at every supercharger. If you use it once in 6 weeks then you have an hour free. Go cross country and they would all have plenty of time accumulated for your free use. Start a long distance business and you would deplete your route very quickly. Other caps could be put in place also. After the free time some charging at cost should be allowed. Then make it expensive tiered rate to provide funds for additional SC installations. Time connected should be charged not just kWh used.

Tesla has kinda missed the mark on all this.
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sun Dec 17, 2017 4:42 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
dgpcolorado wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:They give enough free Kwh with a 3 for city people to not have to pay...
Do they? When the pay model for Supercharging was announced for the S and X it was to include 400 kWh per year free. Does that apply to the Model 3? I haven't seen anything one way or another but you are way closer to the Tesla folks than I am.

Even if the 400 kWh per year does apply to the Model 3, locals camping out at Superchargers will use that up pretty quickly and start having to pay. That ought to discourage them from using the Superchargers unless they don't have home or work charging available. If the 20¢/kWh in California is too low to discourage such charging by those who don't need it, perhaps the fee can be raised.

The problem with restrictions on the local use of Superchargers is that it prevents those who don't have home/work charging, including most renters and many condo/townhouse owners, from being able to drive a Tesla. A better solution is to increase the number of Supercharger Stations and stalls to reduce crowding, something Tesla has been attempting to do. The revenue from Model 3 charging ought to help with this.

Building enough SCs in cities like SF and surrounding areas is extremely costly and with an insane number of 3's that will be owned here is will be really bad. If they open every proposed SC this year in the bay area it's going to do nothing to reduce the load of the new cars. Few 3 owners will care less about $.20 a Kwh as it's a complete steal compared to gas and PGE rates here, it won't just be those with no charging it will be large numbers of people capitalizing on low cost SCs. Tesla will never open up enough SCs to solve this issue in these areas and I bet they will be crowded until very late hours. Most bay area SCs are used by locals primarily ask any attendant at some of the stations. Tesla certainly should limit local owners to specific SOC, this would be a HUGE benefit as so many people just top off wasting stall time for 10% SOC. I see this every time I am traveling from LA and up north trying to get a stall. The vast majority of SC charge users in this area are highly ignorant to EV charging and worse. It's not just tesla drivers as well are well aware. Tesla does a terrible job educating customers on charging in general for SC use.

I wouldn't say the bolded section is necessarily accurate. PG&E base tiered rate is around $0.15kWh last time I checked (someone like cwerdna can confirm), and there are plenty of ToU and EV rates.

For local users, Tesla should really strive to include solar and storage, and I expect the majority of the new SCs for locals will be the 72kW 'urban' type. If it proves to be necessary, Tesla can certainly limit the annual amount of charging within a certain distance of someone's home or work unless it's needed for the people without home charging, but that would require confirmation by the user and Tesla. ISTM it's more important for those people to build lots more L2s for multi-unit dwellings and workplaces as it is SCs, as that should offload the SCs as long as the L2s are more conveniently located and cheaper. Model 3 income demographics are likely to be much lower than ModelS/X, so their owners will be more responsive to price differences.
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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:28 pm

GRA wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:Few 3 owners will care less about $.20 a Kwh as it's a complete steal compared to gas and PGE rates here, it won't just be those with no charging it will be large numbers of people capitalizing on low cost SCs..
.

I wouldn't say the bolded section is necessarily accurate. PG&E base tiered rate is around $0.15kWh last time I checked (someone like cwerdna can confirm), and there are plenty of ToU and EV rates.

Per https://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-1.pdf page 1, the baseline rate on E-1 (default non-TOU plan) is now 19.979 cents/kWh. As I've posted numerous times like the URLs below:
"My baseline is 10.1 kWh/day in "summer" and 10.9 kWh/day in "winter". Those periods are defined on page 6. So, in "summer" every kWh above 303 I use in a 30 day month ends up being at tier 2 prices..." For "winter" it'd be 327 kWh.

viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9111&p=481368&hilit=baseline+summer+winter#p481368
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22645&p=471487&hilit=baseline+summer+winter#p471487
viewtopic.php?f=27&t=22404&p=467635&hilit=baseline+summer+winter#p467635

Anything between 101 to 400% of baseline is 27.6 cents/kWh. Beyond that is 40.1 cents/kWh.

https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/r ... -plan.page lists the other currently available residential plans. Sure, some of them give you cheap electricity in the middle of the night but ream you during the day.

I'm on E-6 that's no longer open to new customers. See pages 2 and 4 of https://www.pge.com/tariffs/tm2/pdf/ELEC_SCHEDS_E-6.pdf.

And, per https://www.pge.com/en_US/residential/s ... ities.page, the baselines are intentionally set to be INSUFFICIENT to cover average usage.
The amount assigned to the first tier is called a "baseline" and represents the minimum level of usage needed to satisfy a substantial portion (50 to 60 percent) of the electricity needs of the average customer in a specific service area called a "baseline territory."

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Re: Tesla Supercharger Network

Sun Dec 17, 2017 5:37 pm

Thanks. So, rather than charging $0.20/kWh for SCs that should probably be for Tesla destination chargers, bump the 'urban' SCs up to $0.25 or $0.30/kWh and the full power SCs somewhat more.
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