jjeff
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Re: Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:07 pm

rcm4453 wrote:
GRA wrote:Via IEVS, if we could only get it here earlier:
Report: GM Considers Ending Chevrolet Volt In Favor Of Plug-In Crossover
http://insideevs.com/report-gm-consider ... crossover/

It is no secret that the passenger car segment is dying in the US. Now according to a new report, GM is considering removing six passenger cars from the US market after 2020, and one of them is the Chevrolet Volt. And while we would be sad to see one of the “original” plug-in offerings for this generation of electric vehicles leave the market place (first launched in December of 2010), it would not be anytime soon as the 2nd generation Volt only just arrived in the Fall of 2015.

GM originally considered offering a utility version of the 1st generation Volt, perhaps the 3rd generation Voltec platform will indeed see this change. The current Chevrolet Volt is said to stick around until at least 2022, and if it were to be discounted [Sic.], the Volt would be replaced with a new extended range, plug-in crossover model. . . .

OTOH, Ford's definitely got a PHEV Escape in the works, supposedly for the 2019 MY, and I'd personally prefer a smaller battery pack than the Volt's, to gain room and save weight/cost. 1/2 the current pack size would do nicely.


Half the pack of a Volt in PHEV Escape? You'd be lucky to get 20 miles AER! Anything less then 40 -50 miles AER seems pointless to me in a PHEV. I had the first gen Volt and got around 38 miles AER, wasn't nearly enough when you factor in winter, heater use, strong headwinds and freeway speeds. I found myself constantly burning gas, which is what I was trying to avoid in the first place. Plus once you get spoiled by the silky smooth EV drive it's like nails on a chalkboard when that loud vibrating ICE kicks in! Now after driving a BEV for almost 2 years I could never go back to a PHEV unless it had an AER equal to or greater then a 30kwh Leaf. Most people don't consider the driving experience of pure EV over ICE, it's just so much more "refined". Now when I drive the girlfriends Malibu it's like driving a tractor!

I somewhat agree, but as Toyota says with the Prius Prime "22 miles will accommodate 51% of its customers' daily driving range" so if 51% is good enough, why try and exceed customers needs :roll:
I believe the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV has a 16+kwh battery which is supposed to give it a ~ 30 mile EV only range, the Prius Prime only has a 8.8kwh battery. I also like the longer range afforded by the Volt, just wish it were a larger vehicle, even if that meant compromising some range or preferably had a larger battery :)
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
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DarthPuppy
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Re: Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:17 pm

Guess GM isn't really committed to electrification. Of course, anyone who remembers the EV1 debacle already knows that.

What they should be doing is developing Volt versions of their successful models, including the SUVs. The weak selling legacy ICEVs should be discontinued, not the other way around. So they think they will strengthen GM by discarding a product that directly aligns with the future of how automotive transportation will work? Guess they can bury their head in the sand. Yes, the shift has been slow, but it is still a clear long-term trend. Moving counter to that does not bode well for GM. Guess they will need another bail out or two in the next decade.

That is precisely why I didn't trust them enough to go with the Volt in 2013 and instead went with Leaf. Granted, a large part of the decision was my commute was easily covered by the Leaf and I didn't see the need to lug around an ICE and fuel tank, etc. But now that my commute is much longer, I've often thought about a Volt. But I was still suspicious of the company and their quality reputation.
'13 Leaf SL
'18 Honda Clarity Touring PHEV

rcm4453
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Re: Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

Sat Jul 22, 2017 1:59 pm

jjeff wrote:
rcm4453 wrote:
GRA wrote:Via IEVS, if we could only get it here earlier: http://insideevs.com/report-gm-consider ... crossover/


OTOH, Ford's definitely got a PHEV Escape in the works, supposedly for the 2019 MY, and I'd personally prefer a smaller battery pack than the Volt's, to gain room and save weight/cost. 1/2 the current pack size would do nicely.


Half the pack of a Volt in PHEV Escape? You'd be lucky to get 20 miles AER! Anything less then 40 -50 miles AER seems pointless to me in a PHEV. I had the first gen Volt and got around 38 miles AER, wasn't nearly enough when you factor in winter, heater use, strong headwinds and freeway speeds. I found myself constantly burning gas, which is what I was trying to avoid in the first place. Plus once you get spoiled by the silky smooth EV drive it's like nails on a chalkboard when that loud vibrating ICE kicks in! Now after driving a BEV for almost 2 years I could never go back to a PHEV unless it had an AER equal to or greater then a 30kwh Leaf. Most people don't consider the driving experience of pure EV over ICE, it's just so much more "refined". Now when I drive the girlfriends Malibu it's like driving a tractor!

I somewhat agree, but as Toyota says with the Prius Prime "22 miles will accommodate 51% of its customers' daily driving range" so if 51% is good enough, why try and exceed customers needs :roll:
I believe the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV has a 16+kwh battery which is supposed to give it a ~ 30 mile EV only range, the Prius Prime only has a 8.8kwh battery. I also like the longer range afforded by the Volt, just wish it were a larger vehicle, even if that meant compromising some range or preferably had a larger battery :)



Here's the problem with only having 22 miles of AER, what are you getting when it's 10 below in January on the freeway going 70mph with the heat on? I don't know maybe I'm different but wouldn't someone's reason for buying a PHEV be to enjoy the EV drive and not be buying gas all the time? Otherwise why not just buy a hybrid or plain ICE if you don't really care about the EV drive aspect? All having the Volt did for me was make me crave more EV drive and less ICE drive, once you get a taste of pure EV driving you don't want the ICE EVER kicking in! With 22 miles AER the ICE will always be kicking in, making it pointless to buying the PHEV in the first place. If a PHEV has around 100 miles AER it makes more sense as 99% of your daily driving would be in pure EV mode with the ICE only needed for road trips.

GRA
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Re: Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:45 pm

rcm4453 wrote:
jjeff wrote:
rcm4453 wrote:
Half the pack of a Volt in PHEV Escape? You'd be lucky to get 20 miles AER! Anything less then 40 -50 miles AER seems pointless to me in a PHEV. I had the first gen Volt and got around 38 miles AER, wasn't nearly enough when you factor in winter, heater use, strong headwinds and freeway speeds. I found myself constantly burning gas, which is what I was trying to avoid in the first place. Plus once you get spoiled by the silky smooth EV drive it's like nails on a chalkboard when that loud vibrating ICE kicks in! Now after driving a BEV for almost 2 years I could never go back to a PHEV unless it had an AER equal to or greater then a 30kwh Leaf. Most people don't consider the driving experience of pure EV over ICE, it's just so much more "refined". Now when I drive the girlfriends Malibu it's like driving a tractor!

I somewhat agree, but as Toyota says with the Prius Prime "22 miles will accommodate 51% of its customers' daily driving range" so if 51% is good enough, why try and exceed customers needs :roll:
I believe the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV has a 16+kwh battery which is supposed to give it a ~ 30 mile EV only range, the Prius Prime only has a 8.8kwh battery. I also like the longer range afforded by the Volt, just wish it were a larger vehicle, even if that meant compromising some range or preferably had a larger battery :)

Here's the problem with only having 22 miles of AER, what are you getting when it's 10 below in January on the freeway going 70mph with the heat on? I don't know maybe I'm different but wouldn't someone's reason for buying a PHEV be to enjoy the EV drive and not be buying gas all the time? Otherwise why not just buy a hybrid or plain ICE if you don't really care about the EV drive aspect? All having the Volt did for me was make me crave more EV drive and less ICE drive, once you get a taste of pure EV driving you don't want the ICE EVER kicking in! With 22 miles AER the ICE will always be kicking in, making it pointless to buying the PHEV in the first place. If a PHEV has around 100 miles AER it makes more sense as 99% of your daily driving would be in pure EV mode with the ICE only needed for road trips.

Here's the way I see it. The biggest barrier to mass acceptance of PEVs is their price, so providing the smallest AER at the lowest cost and least hassle, which still covers at least half of the population and which is large enough that most people will plug them in, is what's needed to get PEVs to cross the chasm to mainstream consumers.

As GM noted some years back, a 20 mile AER covers the routine daily driving needs of 50% of U.S. drivers (35 miles covered 75%, and 40 miles 78%; Toyota's apparently claiming 22 miles AER covers 51%, so the numbers are in general agreement). So what's going to have the greatest impact - providing more AER to the 1% of the population who want to drive as much electrically as they can (and are willing and able to afford a car that allows them to do so), or getting as many people as possible into PEVs as early as possible? There will still be PHEVs with longer AERs for those who need it, but they will be too expensive (for now) for many people. The lowest cost PHEV is the one with the smallest battery that meets someone's routine range requirements, with a bit excess to allow for degradation. Right now, a Volt pack probably costs around $215/kWh ($145/kWh at cell level), so the 18.4 kWh pack should cost about $3,956, and you can knock 1/3rd - 1/2 off for the 1/2 size pack, depending on whether or not the BoP costs drop proportionately. As manufacturing costs typically make up about 50% of MSRP, the price reduction will be about double that.

As battery prices come down and energy densities improve, AER will increase for the same price/weight/space allowing those who need it to afford more, those who don't to afford the cars for the first time (e.g. the Prime), and/or people who are now used to plugging in can switch to BEVs if their needs are met by them.

A 20-30 mile AER PHEV has the following benefits compared to one with longer range (if it isn't needed):

    Covers routine daily driving needs of 50% to maybe 65%? of U.S. drivers.

    Thousands cheaper than a PHEV with twice the AER, which will be particularly critical once the subsidies expire. Also, can be fully charged overnight using only L1, which saves buyers even more money through not needing to buy an L2 EVSE (say $500) and even more money and a lot of hassle if they need to upgrade their electrical system, even assuming any of that's an option for them (for most renters it isn't).

    A couple of hundred lbs. lighter, which should boost efficiency and/or performance in both EV and hybrid modes.

    Less space taken up by the battery, so more room for people/cargo.

The Ford Fusion and C-Max Energis, despite being half-assed implementations of 20-mile AER PHEVs, sell quite well - in fact, together they typically sell about the same and sometimes better than the Volt, both because they're cheaper and because they offer 5 seats. I have a friend who's on his second Fusion Energi, and he informs me his routine driving is all on the battery - clearly its AER is a good fit for him (as he's 6'4" a Volt is too small, even if he needed the extra AER). The A3 e-Tron also sells reasonably well, despite being considerably more expensive and rated with only a 17 mile AER (although it usually seems to manage 20 or a bit more IRL per owners), and the Golf GTE is a best seller where it's offered with its 31 mile AER (probably NEDC, so say low 20s EPA). As I've said before I expect the 25-mile AER Prius Prime will probably be the top seller among PHEVs (and maybe all PEVs, depending on how quickly the Model 3's production ramps up) this year in the U.S., because its base price is $6k less than the Volt's. There is no question the market for 20-30 mile AER PHEVs is there, but what's lacking is a reasonably affordable AWD CUV PHEV, which is where the biggest market is now. But we know that where such a car (the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV ) is for sale, it's the best selling PHEV, and often the best selling PEV overall, despite its modest performance.

The only way to settle the argument over which will sell in greater numbers would be to produce such a car while offering two different battery sizes/AERs. If GM were to offer a Voltec-based small AWD CUV with the choice of say 4 seats/50 mile AER/40 mpg Hwy for a base MSRP of say $35k, or an otherwise identical one with 5 seats/26 mile AER/42 mpg HWY for $31k, which do you think would have a bigger market? I'd love to see some company give people the option, but if a single company doesn't, different companies undoubtedly will provide such competition.
Last edited by GRA on Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:15 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

jjeff
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Re: Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:59 pm

^^^ well said :)
If/when our current regular Prius('07) needs to be replaced(we generally like to get 10+ years out of our cars) we'll strongly think of the Prime.
Sure coming from a Leaf I'd prefer more EV range, but it's minimal EV range should meet my wife's daily commute, even in colder temps(~16 mile RT) and yet being a Prius it will still get great hwy MPG(I'd hope for 50 mpg).
Personally, if I could pay say $2-4k more for a larger battery, say like the Volt, we'd probably go for it, although not at the expense of much cargo room, still want the versatility and storage capacity of the regular Prius.
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
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VTLeaf
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Re: Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

Wed Jul 26, 2017 7:23 pm

GRA wrote:
rcm4453 wrote:
jjeff wrote:I somewhat agree, but as Toyota says with the Prius Prime "22 miles will accommodate 51% of its customers' daily driving range" so if 51% is good enough, why try and exceed customers needs :roll:
I believe the Chrysler Pacifica PHEV has a 16+kwh battery which is supposed to give it a ~ 30 mile EV only range, the Prius Prime only has a 8.8kwh battery. I also like the longer range afforded by the Volt, just wish it were a larger vehicle, even if that meant compromising some range or preferably had a larger battery :)

Here's the problem with only having 22 miles of AER, what are you getting when it's 10 below in January on the freeway going 70mph with the heat on? I don't know maybe I'm different but wouldn't someone's reason for buying a PHEV be to enjoy the EV drive and not be buying gas all the time? Otherwise why not just buy a hybrid or plain ICE if you don't really care about the EV drive aspect? All having the Volt did for me was make me crave more EV drive and less ICE drive, once you get a taste of pure EV driving you don't want the ICE EVER kicking in! With 22 miles AER the ICE will always be kicking in, making it pointless to buying the PHEV in the first place. If a PHEV has around 100 miles AER it makes more sense as 99% of your daily driving would be in pure EV mode with the ICE only needed for road trips.

Here's the way I see it. The biggest barrier to mass acceptance of PEVs is their price, so providing the smallest AER at the lowest cost and least hassle, which still covers at least half of the population and which is large enough that most people will plug them in, is what's needed to get PEVs to cross the chasm to mainstream consumers.

As GM noted some years back, a 20 mile AER covers the routine daily driving needs of 50% of U.S. drivers (35 miles covered 75%, and 40 miles 78%; Toyota's apparently claiming 22 miles AER covers 51%, so the numbers are in general agreement). So what's going to have the greatest impact - providing more AER to the 1% of the population who want to drive as much electrically as they can (and are willing and able to afford a car that allows them to do so), or getting as many people as possible into PEVs as early as possible? There will still be PHEVs with longer AERs for those who need it, but they will be too expensive (for now) for many people. The lowest cost PHEV is the one with the smallest battery that meets someone's routine range requirements, with a bit excess to allow for degradation. Right now, a Volt pack probably costs around $215/kWh ($145/kWh at cell level), so the 18.4 kWh pack should cost about $3,956, and you can knock 1/3rd - 1/2 off for the 1/2 size pack, depending on whether or not the BoP costs drop proportionately. As manufacturing costs typically make up about 50% of MSRP, the price reduction will be about double that.

As battery prices come down and energy densities improve, AER will increase for the same price/weight/space allowing those who need it to afford more, those who don't to afford the cars for the first time (e.g. the Prime), and/or people who are now used to plugging in can switch to BEVs if their needs are met by them.

A 20-30 mile AER PHEV has the following benefits compared to one with longer range (if it isn't needed):

    Covers routine daily driving needs of 50% to maybe 65%? of U.S. drivers.

    Thousands cheaper than a PHEV with twice the AER, which will be particularly critical once the subsidies expire. Also, can be fully charged overnight using only L1, which saves buyers even more money through not needing to buy an L2 EVSE (say $500) and even more money and a lot of hassle if they need to upgrade their electrical system, even assuming any of that's an option for them (for most renters it isn't).

    A couple of hundred lbs. lighter, which should boost efficiency and/or performance in both EV and hybrid modes.

    Less space taken up by the battery, so more room for people/cargo.

The Ford Fusion and C-Max Energis, despite being half-assed implementations of 20-mile AER PHEVs, sell quite well - in fact, together they typically sell about the same and sometimes better than the Volt, both because they're cheaper and because they offer 5 seats. I have a friend who's on his second Fusion Energi, and he informs me his routine driving is all on the battery - clearly its AER is a good fit for him (as he's 6'4" a Volt is too small, even if he needed the extra AER). The A3 e-Tron also sells reasonably well, despite being considerably more expensive and rated with only a 17 mile AER (although it usually seems to manage 20 or a bit more IRL per owners), and the Golf GTE is a best seller where it's offered with its 31 mile AER (probably NEDC, so say low 20s EPA). As I've said before I expect the 25-mile AER Prius Prime will probably be the top seller among PHEVs (and maybe all PEVs, depending on how quickly the Model 3's production ramps up) this year in the U.S., because its base price is $6k less than the Volt's. There is no question the market for 20-30 mile AER PHEVs is there, but what's lacking is a reasonably affordable AWD CUV PHEV, which is where the biggest market is now. But we know that where such a car (the Mitsubishi Outlander PHEV ) is for sale, it's the best selling PHEV, and often the best selling PEV overall, despite its modest performance.

The only way to settle the argument over which will sell in greater numbers would be to produce such a car while offering two different battery sizes/AERs. If GM were to offer a Voltec-based small AWD CUV with the choice of say 4 seats/50 mile AER/40 mpg Hwy for a base MSRP of say $35k, or an otherwise identical one with 5 seats/26 mile AER/42 mpg HWY for $31k, which do you think would have a bigger market? I'd love to see some company give people the option, but if a single company doesn't, different companies undoubtedly will provide such competition.


Agreed -- we just traded our Prius V for an off-lease CMax Energi (our other car is a Leaf) because we wanted to drive electric as much as possible -- but as devoted as I am to that with a young family and wife who makes unpredictable road trips for work, it's not yet sensible enough to move to all-electric. As is, with the CMax we predict 2/3rds of our driving will be all-electric, up from 1/3 when we had the Leaf and the Prius.
Lightly-used off-lease electrics!
'13 Leaf SV
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edatoakrun
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Re: Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:15 am

As reported below, but ending Volt production in 2022 would actually be ~2 years later than earlier reports that Volt production might end as early as 2020.

GM to Drop Volt, Can Tesla Hit Its Goals? - Autoline Daily 2259


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nvAR4JgONxA
no condition is permanent

LKK
Posts: 283
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Re: Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

Fri Dec 22, 2017 11:46 am

I'm not surprised the Volt will be killed but I would be really surprised if the Voltec drivetrain is not retained and used in most of GM's vehicles to provide both hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles in addition to their BEVs.

jjeff
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Re: Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

Fri Dec 22, 2017 2:06 pm

LKK wrote:I'm not surprised the Volt will be killed but I would be really surprised if the Voltec drivetrain is not retained and used in most of GM's vehicles to provide both hybrid and plug-in hybrid vehicles in addition to their BEVs.

Now that might be a vehicle I'd be interested in :)
I like the Volt's drivetrain but totally dislike the Volt design. Actually, I like the look of the Volt on the outside, just way too cramped on the inside :( Put the Volt drivetrain in something larger and I'd be all over it!
2012 SL purchased used 2/'16
2013 S w/QC purchased new
Juicebox Premium 60a L1/L2 EVSE, Ebusbar 16a L1/L2 EVSE
'12 EVSEupgrade'd 20a L1/L2 EVSE, '13 EVSEupgrade'd adjustable 6-20a L2, 6-13a L1 EVSE
Zencar 13, 20, 30a L1/L2 portable EVSE
GE Durastation 30a

GRA
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Re: Gen 2 Chevrolet Volt PHEV (2016+) MSRP $33,995

Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:40 pm

Via GCR:
2019 Chevy Volt gets higher prices with more equipment
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1118443_2019-chevy-volt-gets-higher-prices-with-more-equipment

. . . The price of the base Volt LT model will go up $300 to $34,395, including destination and before any applicable federal or state tax breaks. The top-level Volt Premier will cost $38,995, before incentives, which is $550 more than a 2018.

For the extra $300, the base Volt gets new regenerative braking software and a "Low" range in the shifter that gives much stronger regen than the car had before. Chevy adopted the program from the Bolt EV.

The updated Volt also gets new software in the center screen that will allow drivers to better monitor how the car is using electricity. It breaks out usage for climate control and lights, as well as driving efficiency.

Finally, a new tire-fill system sets off a chime when the tires reach their recommended pressure.

The 2019 Volt Premier also gets a standard power driver's seat and a faster, 7.2-kw onboard charger, which can bring recharge times down to 2.5 hours on Level 2. Both of these features are optional on the LT.

The Driver Confidence II package, which offers adaptive cruise control, now also offers a setting to switch back to standard cruise control.

The Qi wireless charger that comes packaged with the navigation system has been relocated where it's easier to reach in front of the shifter.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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