Replaced 12v Lead with 12v Lithium

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Very interesting and informative thread. Read the whole dang thing!!

Most of my batteries last between four and six years (all in ICE vehicles). I had one anomoly, a Mazda Miata in which I replaced my AGM battery after NINE YEARS!! And it was still working but I figured, nah, it’s gotta die any day now. The battery used in the Miata was the very same size battery which was used in my BMW R1100R motorcycle.

Not sure if this is the exact battery mentioned in this thread for $150 dollars. Found it on Amazon for $115:
Shorai LifeP04, Power Sports Battery / 12V 10-14(Ah) 240 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA):

https://www.amazon.com/LiFePO4-12V-10-14ah-PowerSport-Battery/dp/B012B5IKS0/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1513195132&sr=1-1&keywords=lifepo4+powersports+battery

Here’s a Battery Tender model, which is larger capacity, $210 dollars:

Battery Tender BTL35A480C Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery / (12V, 26-35Ah, 480 ICA, 102.4 Watt Hrs.)

-- Caution: Quite a few reviewers report poor customer service from Battery Tender! --

https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-BTL35A480C-Lithium-Phosphate/dp/B00F9LPL5E/ref=sr_1_3?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1513195132&sr=1-3&keywords=lifepo4+powersports+battery

Rich

PS

To drive everyone just a bit crazier, here's what popped-up on Amazon for "lithium car battery"

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_8_5?url=search-alias%3Dautomotive&field-keywords=lithium+car+battery&sprefix=lithi%2Cautomotive%2C190&crid=16NMK9N7AYWTS
 
RichCapeCod said:
Very interesting and informative thread. Read the whole dang thing!!

Most of my batteries last between four and six years (all in ICE vehicles). I had one anomoly, a Mazda Miata in which I replaced my AGM battery after NINE YEARS!! And it was still working but I figured, nah, it’s gotta die any day now. The battery used in the Miata was the very same size battery which was used in my BMW R1100R motorcycle.

Not sure if this is the exact battery mentioned in this thread for $150 dollars. Found it on Amazon for $115:
Shorai LifeP04, Power Sports Battery / 12V 10-14(Ah) 240 Cold Cranking Amps (CCA):

https://www.amazon.com/LiFePO4-12V-10-14ah-PowerSport-Battery/dp/B012B5IKS0/ref=sr_1_1?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1513195132&sr=1-1&keywords=lifepo4+powersports+battery

Here’s a Battery Tender model, which is larger capacity, $210 dollars:

Battery Tender BTL35A480C Lithium Iron Phosphate Battery / (12V, 26-35Ah, 480 ICA, 102.4 Watt Hrs.)

-- Caution: Quite a few reviewers report poor customer service from Battery Tender! --

https://www.amazon.com/Battery-Tender-BTL35A480C-Lithium-Phosphate/dp/B00F9LPL5E/ref=sr_1_3?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1513195132&sr=1-3&keywords=lifepo4+powersports+battery

Rich

PS

To drive everyone just a bit crazier, here's what popped-up on Amazon for "lithium car battery"

https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_i_8_5?url=search-alias%3Dautomotive&field-keywords=lithium+car+battery&sprefix=lithi%2Cautomotive%2C190&crid=16NMK9N7AYWTS

Rich,
You need to look carefully at the ratings. Those batteries are advertised as equivalent to certain AHr rating based upon CCA. In reality, they are only about 8 AHr or less actual capacity so they would likely be insufficient to power the residual loads in the LEAF while parked for a few days.
 
^ ^ ^ THIS

I can promise you that any LiFePO4 12v battery for < $200 either won't work in the Leaf or is of poor quality (no BMS, etc.)
 
I'm still rocking my Tattu LiFe 5Ah motorcycle battery for almost a full year now and 20k miles. Starts every day I've gone on vacation and left it for 10 days twice once plugged in and once not plugged in and neither time I had an issue starting up and driving to work the next morning. Was $110 on Amazon. Includes a BMS, over voltage protection, and low-voltage cutoff.

Keep spreading misinformation based on conjecture without any experience though ;)

e: Holy crap this battery is down to $89 on Amazon clearance! Wow. Of course it's under $200 so it won't work, right guys? :mrgreen:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01J9XN49M/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1
 
VitaminJ said:
I'm still rocking my Tattu LiFe 5Ah motorcycle battery for almost a full year now and 20k miles. Starts every day I've gone on vacation and left it for 10 days twice once plugged in and once not plugged in and neither time I had an issue starting up and driving to work the next morning. Was $110 on Amazon. Includes a BMS, over voltage protection, and low-voltage cutoff.

Keep spreading misinformation based on conjecture without any experience though ;)

e: Holy crap this battery is down to $89 on Amazon clearance! Wow. Of course it's under $200 so it won't work, right guys? :mrgreen:
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01J9XN49M/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

You were right on the razor's edge, assuming a 20mA dark current. I'd recommend at least 20AH capacity (true capacity not "Pb equivalent") to account for higher parasitic loads, longer vacations and emergency situations.
 
GerryAZ said:
RichCapeCod said:
.............

Rich,
You need to look carefully at the ratings. Those batteries are advertised as equivalent to certain AHr rating based upon CCA. In reality, they are only about 8 AHr or less actual capacity so they would likely be insufficient to power the residual loads in the LEAF while parked for a few days.

Gerry, thanks for clarifying the data. For the record, in your view, is there any lithium based battery which might be of value for use in an EV?

Rich
 
RichCapeCod said:
Gerry, thanks for clarifying the data. For the record, in your view, is there any lithium based battery which might be of value for use in an EV?

Rich

Rich,

The large, expensive one that Stanton has (or similar) should be good. The little powersports batteries are marginal, at best (both quality and capacity wise) so I will not consider them for the LEAF.

One of my motorcycles has a factory alarm system which has residual load like the LEAF so I have killed a few conventional and AGM batteries in it by letting the bike sit too long without either riding or charging it. I was planning to try a lithium battery after seeing them advertised at a motorcycle show, but the local battery store where I buy most of my batteries said they had so much trouble with them (various brands) that they decided not to sell them any more. I can understand why they are not reliable after studying the specifications.
 
The most common failure in smaller lithium packs is the BMS. Many, many packs get killed by the very device that is supposed to protect them. The lack of a BMS is actually one of the virtues of lead batteries.
 
LeftieBiker said:
The most common failure in smaller lithium packs is the BMS. Many, many packs get killed by the very device that is supposed to protect them. The lack of a BMS is actually one of the virtues of lead batteries.

How is this post at all helpful in this thread...when you don't even have data to back it up...after @GerryAZ gave such a thoughtful answer to the previous question??
Why do you have to comment on EVERY topic in EVERY thread!!
 
How is this post at all helpful in this thread...when you don't even have data to back it up...after @GerryAZ gave such a thoughtful answer to the previous question??

I've been involved with electric bicycles and scooters since 2001. I've seen many reports of pack failures, and had packs fail myself. SLA batteries more often get killed by charger failures (runaway charging), lithium packs get killed by BMS failure, NiMH packs succumb to heat, usually from badly programmed BMS units. Try sites like VisForVoltage, EndlessSphere, etc, for confirmation.


Why do you have to comment on EVERY topic in EVERY thread!!

There are threads here in which I've never commented, and others in which I rarely comment. This topic is directly relevant to my own Leaf experience: I had a nearly dead 12 volt battery when my car was one year old (power locks didn't work, emergency start procedure worked), and have been using a maintainer ever since. I still have the same battery, after 4.5 years, that was nearly dead after one year. I'm guessing that it just seems to you that I comment on everything, so I suggest you filter me (select "add FOE" in the user controls) since you have no interest in what I have to say.
 
Just a reminder that this guy puts a trickle charger on his daily driver :lol: Yes, I'm gonna listen to him for the best advice on my car :roll:

LeftieBiker said:
This topic is directly relevant to my own Leaf experience: I had a nearly dead 12 volt battery when my car was one year old (power locks didn't work, emergency start procedure worked), and have been using a maintainer ever since.
 
Is there perhaps some significant differences between the model years in the way various Leafs maintain the 12V battery?

by the way, i think i learned from this thread the Leaf's load on the12V battery when everything is off ("dark load") is ~ 20mA, right? (i assume through measurement?)
That would work out to about 1/2 Amps / day

A source of potentially unpredictable loads can be the telematics (which I don't have in my model).
Doesn't the leaf's computer periodically wake up and do stuff, even when off?

what does leaving doors open do? i mean, i'm thinking i remember that after a few minutes of leaving hatch open the light went out(?). does leaving a door open keep the computer active indefinitely, i wonder?
 
The 2013 model year is the worst for battery issues, and they seem to have resolved them for the 2014 or 2015 year. Leaving a door open likely does keep parts of the car "awake."
 
I recently experienced a 12v lead battery failure in my used Leaf. I can't speak for what it went thru the first 20k of its life, but the first 1000 miles I had it, I did nothing out of the ordinary. Never left lights on, doors open, etc. After reading this post and several others, and I am by no means a battery expert, but I replace a lot of lithium battery packs on industrial robots on a time basis rather than to failure. The packs generally measure the same voltage when I replace them, but they get so little draw and so little usage. That would be the extent of my lithium battery experience. Here's what I came up with.

Replacing with a 12V lead acid replacement: Plan for battery to last around 3-4 years depending on climate and use. Cheapest option. Potential to use a maintainer occasionally, something additional to remember to do.

Replacing with a yellow top Optima: Plan for battery to last in the range of 5-7 years depending on climate and use. A little pricier. Don't see the need to use a maintainer as the deep cycle is more in line with what would work for a Leaf currently.

Replacing with a proper lithium battery like what the OP did: Plan for battery to last in the 8+ years depending on climate and use. Much pricier. I wouldn't mess with a maintainer on this. My only concern to this would be temperature as i live in southern Ohio, and winters can be cold. I know lithium chemistry can be different and can handle a variety of ranges of temperature.

I just don't think that lithium batteries being used as a 12V has hit a level of reliability in masses to be used in every day vehicles. Yes, the OP has one that has lasted him 4+ years with no issues, but the cost is where I see this as a killer for many. I'm not aware of anyone mass producing these batteries in a 12V format that can be used reliably in BEV or hybrid vehicles. I think the best option for many is the yellow top Optima. Simple, proven. I could be wrong.
 
I think that using any deep(er) cycle SLA or AGM battery is the way to go. And while I wouldn't use a maintainer often, I would do it occasionally, at least until it was shown by the rest voltage to be unnecessary.
 
I cannot believe that I still have my original 2012 battery (delivered 12/08/2011) after 6+ years! :shock: I have even killed it a few times, by not leaving it on a trickle charge while we were on vacation, and it still keeps coming back. The Florida heat is supposed to be hard on batteries, but this one likes it here. :D Maybe its all the sunshine that hits the solar panel of my SL, helping trickle charge it all the time?
 
keydiver said:
I cannot believe that I still have my original 2012 battery (delivered 12/08/2011) after 6+ years! :shock: I have even killed it a few times, by not leaving it on a trickle charge while we were on vacation, and it still keeps coming back. The Florida heat is supposed to be hard on batteries, but this one likes it here. :D Maybe its all the sunshine that hits the solar panel of my SL, helping trickle charge it all the time?
You are confused. The car has two batteries. Heat kills the big battery and cold kills the small battery. Look at the people posting problems with their 12v battery, all northern latitudes and this problem gains popularity in winter time. The solar panel only charges the 12v small battery has nothing to do with your big battery.
 
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