Update on Nissan LEAF Battery Replacement

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cwerdna said:
fotajoye said:
It appears the batteries are located within the same space in the various MY Leafs. In fact the 2018 MY uses the same chassis dimensions as the older Leafs. So, the question becomes: "Why won't Nissan do the necessary engineering to fit the higher density batteries in the older models and offer the upgrade?" I have yet to read a plausible answer to this question from Nissan, only their dealers quoting Nissan's restrictive battery policy. or user speculation.
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=491774#p491774

The most plausible is the engineering + homologation costs will be too high to justify given what price they would have to charge vs. the actual demand. Lots of people say they want _____ but will actually not follow through or will not follow through when they hear the cost. And, Nissan core business is selling cars, which they'd rather do than selling you multi-kilobuck battery upgrades.

Nissan is well aware (well, prior to knowing about the crap degradation on the 30 kWh packs) that some (many?) folks would rather pay for a 30 kWh pack than a 24, if they have to pay full price to replace their degraded old Leaf battery.

And given the 30 kWh pack is heavier, the max cargo + passenger weight allowed will likely have to go down on cars that weren't originally 30 kWh cars.
Does anyone have any information from Nissan as to why they won't or can't do the necessary engineering? There are batteries available now that make it possible to replace the older tech batteries and Nissan is no longer in the battery business. That changes the reasons completely.
 
Sorry but Nissan is in the business of selling new cars.

Extending the life of old used cars is the Aftermarket's vision statement and where are they? Chasing money. The reality is there is no money in upgrading LEAF packs.

Maybe when upgrades from 24 to 40 or 60 kwh is available there will be enough room for the aftermarket company to make money but by then, we very well might see 250 mile range EVs in the upper 20's with far advanced tech.

The reality is most old used cars become old not because they are worn out, they simply just aint as cool as new ones!
 
fotajoye said:
Does anyone have any information from Nissan as to why they won't or can't do the necessary engineering?
If you looked at one of the links I cited, it led to http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=440923#p440923:
cwerdna said:
https://transportevolved.com/2015/10/19/first-drive-report-2016-euro-spec-nissan-leaf-like-the-old-leaf-but-with-more-range-if-you-pay/ states:
Contrary to previous reports Nissan engineers told us during the launch event that the new 30kWh pack could, technically, be fitted to the previous generation of LEAF electric cars as the charging system, motor, controller, and suspension are all identical to the 2013 LEAF.

However, Nissan stated that each car would have to individually undergo homologation, an expensive and time consuming process that it felt would not be worth the effort for owners when added to the cost of the new battery pack. As a consequence, no upgrade path is being offered right now.
I'd imagine that they would also at least need do several crash on tests (e.g. frontal, side, frontal w/unbelted dummies, etc.) '11 or '12 Leafs w/such an upgrade as part of the homologation process, as well, to certify they still meet NHTSA/FMVSS requirements.

Back to weight rating, they'd probably have to include stickers like these on the modified cars: https://priuschat.com/threads/reduced-load-carrying-capacity-sticker.84309/. IIRC, I've seen recalls for cars that failed to include such stickers when required, even if it was for a very small # of pounds.
 
The only answer here is going to be from third party manufacturers who won't have to do the federal testing because they'll list it as a replacement part. There's a post in batteries and charging about someone who found a Chinese manufacturer to build batteries for a Leaf. Don't know if it ever got off the ground though. The biggest problem is reprogramming the car to accept the new battery not building the battery. Cost is going to be another problem. A $5000 battery even if it's 40KWH is a hard sell to go in a $5000 car. If a 5 year old Leaf was worth $20000 with a new 40KWH battery, then you would have something. My guess is that even with the new larger battery, it still wouldn't be worth more than $12000 - $13000.
 
johnlocke said:
The only answer here is going to be from third party manufacturers who won't have to do the federal testing because they'll list it as a replacement part. There's a post in batteries and charging about someone who found a Chinese manufacturer to build batteries for a Leaf. Don't know if it ever got off the ground though. The biggest problem is reprogramming the car to accept the new battery not building the battery. Cost is going to be another problem. A $5000 battery even if it's 40KWH is a hard sell to go in a $5000 car. If a 5 year old Leaf was worth $20000 with a new 40KWH battery, then you would have something. My guess is that even with the new larger battery, it still wouldn't be worth more than $12000 - $13000.

Too bad it turned out this way because there's a lot of life left in a Leaf after the battery depletes.

Those of us who own our cars have the option of replacing the battery and driving the car; and, from a cost standpoint, that makes sense. It would make even more sense if the Chinese, or anyone, could provide a long- range replacement battery at a reasonable price. I hate to buy from Nissan now that I better understand their policies.
 
fotajoye said:
It would make even more sense if the Chinese, or anyone, could provide a long- range replacement battery at a reasonable price. I hate to buy from Nissan now that I better understand their policies.
The Chinese have bought/are buying AESC: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110772_nissan-to-sell-electric-car-battery-unit-aesc-to-chinese-company-report.
 
If Nissan was being honest they would put the programming and electronics in the public domain so that a 3rd party could sell reasonably priced battery and installation. As it is, all we have are a bunch of lame excuses that amount to a big 'F you' from Nissan.
 
SageBrush said:
If Nissan was being honest they would put the programming and electronics in the public domain so that a 3rd party could sell reasonably priced battery and installation. As it is, all we have are a bunch of lame excuses that amount to a big 'F you' from Nissan.

It would be great if the car makers operated that way; but, the only way they will share their IP, including software, is if the Government requires it by law or they enter into a Join venture with another company. Massachusetts for example has a law that requires car companies share repair data. But, It appears that reverse engineering is the only process available to most of us.

Tesla is an exception and shares their patents; but, I'm not sure they share their software. There are situations where Tesla will not "activate" a car which raises another question about who owns the software when you buy a car. Or, for that matter' Who Owns The Car? Hopefully someone will take this question to court.

I'm afraid when it comes to replacement batteries and dealing with Nissan, it's 'take it or leave it' at this point.
 
fotajoye said:
Massachusetts for example has a law that requires car companies share repair data. But, It appears that reverse engineering is the only process available to most of us.

Tesla is an exception and shares their patents; but, I'm not sure they share their software.
Tesla is not particularly forthcoming on providing any info either.

To confirm something I recalled, I just visited https://service.teslamotors.com/ and tried registering. The only state for which you can register for "General Access (Personal or Business)" is Massachusetts. (You can find more chatter on this by Googling for site:teslamotorsclub.com massachusetts service manuals.)

I'm not aware of any major US or Japanese automaker which is THAT restrictive on who can buy or buy access to service manuals, at least on their mass market vehicles.
SageBrush said:
If Nissan was being honest they would put the programming and electronics in the public domain so that a 3rd party could sell reasonably priced battery and installation.
What major automaker that sells in the US provides this?
 
cwerdna said:
SageBrush said:
If Nissan was being honest they would put the programming and electronics in the public domain so that a 3rd party could sell reasonably priced battery and installation.
What major automaker that sells in the US provides this?
Specific to Nissan, since they ignore a cohort of owners floundering with a crap battery.
 
johnlocke said:
The only answer here is going to be from third party manufacturers who won't have to do the federal testing because they'll list it as a replacement part. There's a post in batteries and charging about someone who found a Chinese manufacturer to build batteries for a Leaf. Don't know if it ever got off the ground though. The biggest problem is reprogramming the car to accept the new battery not building the battery. Cost is going to be another problem. A $5000 battery even if it's 40KWH is a hard sell to go in a $5000 car. If a 5 year old Leaf was worth $20000 with a new 40KWH battery, then you would have something. My guess is that even with the new larger battery, it still wouldn't be worth more than $12000 - $13000.
Sadly we have no choice in the matter .....All Leafs will eventually need their batteries change even if they are worth just $5000 ...I own a 2011 that is a few months away from needing a 3rd battery ....
 
fotajoye said:
SageBrush said:
....Tesla is an exception and shares their patents; but, I'm not sure they share their software. There are situations where Tesla will not "activate" a car which raises another question about who owns the software when you buy a car. Or, for that matter' Who Owns The Car? Hopefully someone will take this question to court.
...

The question of who owns the software in a product you buy has been one that needs to be addressed, probably through legislation.
In the past I have heard of companies who have blocked sales of their used products by claiming the integral software needed to run the product is not owned by the purchaser. Permission to use it was given only to the original purchaser. (I don't know if that still happens)
 
jlatl said:
The question of who owns the software in a product you buy has been one that needs to be addressed, probably through legislation.
In the past I have heard of companies who have blocked sales of their used products by claiming the integral software needed to run the product is not owned by the purchaser. Permission to use it was given only to the original purchaser. (I don't know if that still happens)
I'm pretty sure all of those cases that have been litigated have upheld the right to resell the product.

I actually don't think the programming will be a big hurdle to someone engineering a third party solution. They will have to include their own BMS and can program it to tell the car whatever it wants to hear. Using a bigger battery may result in oddities like the car thinking you're getting 10 miles per kWh or the GOM being even more inaccurate that it is now, but getting it to work shouldn't be hard. After all, there have already been second batteries installed successfully by DIY types.
 
davewill said:
I actually don't think the programming will be a big hurdle to someone engineering a third party solution. They will have to include their own BMS and can program it to tell the car whatever it wants to hear. Using a bigger battery may result in oddities like the car thinking you're getting 10 miles per kWh or the GOM being even more inaccurate that it is now, but getting it to work shouldn't be hard. After all, there have already been second batteries installed successfully by DIY types.
I don't know about the MY2011/12s, but I believe in 2013 Nissan developed a security system for the LEAF to prevent the car from functioning with any battery not made by Nissan. I believe their concern was that low-quality third-party solutions could create a bad safety reputation for the vehicle.

But even if they did this, that should not prevent someone from using a LEAF BMS with third-party cells.
 
cwerdna said:
fotajoye said:
It would make even more sense if the Chinese, or anyone, could provide a long- range replacement battery at a reasonable price. I hate to buy from Nissan now that I better understand their policies.
The Chinese have bought/are buying AESC: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110772_nissan-to-sell-electric-car-battery-unit-aesc-to-chinese-company-report.
Oh great! Expect $2,000 batteries that start out at 8 bars and die within 5 months.

At least that's how it's been with Chinese parts for a lot of other cars like my classic 1972 VW Bug I'm restoring. Every Chinese part you buy you either keep fiddling with to get it to work at least partially or you go dig out that 40 year part you tossed and find a specialist who can restore it.

Hopefully it's not that way with EV batteries.
 
IssacZachary said:
cwerdna said:
fotajoye said:
It would make even more sense if the Chinese, or anyone, could provide a long- range replacement battery at a reasonable price. I hate to buy from Nissan now that I better understand their policies.
The Chinese have bought/are buying AESC: https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1110772_nissan-to-sell-electric-car-battery-unit-aesc-to-chinese-company-report.
Oh great! Expect $2,000 batteries that start out at 8 bars and die within 5 months.

At least that's how it's been with Chinese parts for a lot of other cars like my classic 1972 VW Bug I'm restoring. Every Chinese part you buy you either keep fiddling with to get it to work at least partially or you go dig out that 40 year part you tossed and find a specialist who can restore it.

Hopefully it's not that way with EV batteries.

The Chinese stuff is starting to get better in a lot of areas; I bought a harbor freight wood chipper that's still working well after I tried real hard to kill it and a Chinese made Sears Garden Tractor with a Kohler engine that's on it's fifth years of service. I remember when the Japanese first imported cars, lots of problems; now they are among the most reliable. But, I don't see another source for low priced anything other than Asia.
 
fotajoye said:
The Chinese stuff is starting to get better in a lot of areas; I bought a harbor freight wood chipper that's still working well after I tried real hard to kill it and a Chinese made Sears Garden Tractor with a Kohler engine that's on it's fifth years of service. I remember when the Japanese first imported cars, lots of problems; now they are among the most reliable. But, I don't see another source for low priced anything other than Asia.
Indeed. While there's still a ton of cheap junk that comes from China, so much of what we buy and use is made in China, much of it not bad (e.g. laptops, cell phones, tablets, TVs). All Macs, iPhones and iPads for the US market and most of the world come from China (at least assembled there).

I hear that China's becoming too expensive in terms of costs, so I've seen more stuff coming from Vietnam. My Brother (a Japanese company) all-in-one copier, scanner and laser printer was made in or assembled in Vietnam.
 
cwerdna said:
fotajoye said:
The Chinese stuff is starting to get better in a lot of areas; I bought a harbor freight wood chipper that's still working well after I tried real hard to kill it and a Chinese made Sears Garden Tractor with a Kohler engine that's on it's fifth years of service. I remember when the Japanese first imported cars, lots of problems; now they are among the most reliable. But, I don't see another source for low priced anything other than Asia.
Indeed. While there's still a ton of cheap junk that comes from China, so much of what we buy and use is made in China, much of it not bad (e.g. laptops, cell phones, tablets, TVs). All Macs, iPhones and iPads for the US market and most of the world come from China (at least assembled there).

I hear that China's becoming too expensive in terms of costs, so I've seen more stuff coming from Vietnam. My Brother (a Japanese company) all-in-one copier, scanner and laser printer was made in or assembled in Vietnam.

China is moving into the 21st Century and labor is demanding to be paid so they don't have that great price advantage any more
 
Another factor in the quality of exported Chinese goods is the type of company. Well-known multinationals have a greater stake in quality, so their Chinese factories generally have higher production standards. Chinese manufacturers, though, are more interested in expanding sales rapidly, and generally consider quality to be at best a secondary factor. Also, small Chinese shops that develop a reputation for high quality tend to then get bought up by larger Chinese companies, with a subsequent slip in build quality.
 
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