Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

By next year, Leaf will be pretty close to the 3.

https://electrek.co/2018/01/04/nissan-leaf-2019-specs-range-charging/

Range, charging speed, TMS.

Now if only they roll out a van or a pickup.

DNAinaGoodWay said:

By next year, Leaf will be pretty close to the 3.

https://electrek.co/2018/01/04/nissan-leaf-2019-specs-range-charging/

Range, charging speed, TMS.

Now if only they roll out a van or a pickup.

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That's interesting. Thanks for sharing. I'll admit the Leaf isn't as attractive, but the hatchback gives it a lot more utility. If the 2019 is all the article says it is, it will be a tough choice. Dollar for Dollar, the T3 is probably still a better choice because of the charging network. That could change by next year though.

I wonder if the 35K price is just for the 60kWhr battery/22kW offload/100 kW charge rate variant, and 30K option will exist for 40kWhr battery/11kW offload/50kW charge rate variant. That would make sense? Seems like it's very important for Nissan to offer a ~ $30K option.

DNAinaGoodWay said:

By next year, Leaf will be pretty close to the 3.

https://electrek.co/2018/01/04/nissan-leaf-2019-specs-range-charging/

Range, charging speed, TMS...

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Electek seems to be misinterpreting its source, which is this article:

How Nissan sees Leaf’s competition...

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https://pushevs.com/2017/12/29/nissan-sees-leafs-competition/

The slide is claimed to be from Nissan, and certainly looks plausible.

The Table below are Pedro LIma's (pushevs') projections, and far less certain to be correct.

Neither car has been built yet, so we can only use what the manufacturers have claimed.

The "60 kWh" LEAF will probably have longer single-charge EPA combined range than the base battery model 3.

We'll have a better idea of how much longer when we find out the efficiency ratings and EPA range of the "40 kWh" LEAF, which has still not been reported. I expect the first window sticker photo to show up any day now.

DC charging speed for the two cars is likely to be very similar, but I doubt Nissan will have a higher capacity on board charger, as pushevs reports. And I hope Nissan does not encumber the LEAF with a liquid pack cooling system, which only Tesla packs require for safety.

As to price, The LEAF will be much less expensive than the 3, when comparably-equipped.

A fully -loaded "60 kWh" LEAF will probably have a higher sticker price than a stripper model 3, but expect Nissan to offer lower cost leases, and even that loaded LEAF will probably have lower TCO than the stripper model 3.

Based on the results of my previous uncooled Leaf battery; without liquid cooling, I will either wait 3 years for off lease with near-perfect battery, require an impressive durability warrantee, or buy a Bolt. I'm impressed with the ability of my Volt battery to daily charge/discharge full capacity for my 60 miles (1/4 gallon of gas) daily use; with no capacity loss.

DaveinOlyWA said:

Is this just ANOTHER example of Musk giving us what we need instead of what we want?

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I know a lot of people are criticizing Tesla for not meeting their production goals, but:
A) Tesla has NEVER met them before, so what's the big surprise here?
B) I think a lot of people feel like I do. If delaying shipments a month or 2 will get 10's of thousands more people the $7500 tax credit, I can wait. It seems like most people today expect instant gratification and have no patience. In the grand scheme of things, what is a few month delay in getting your Model 3? Sure, if your previous lease has run out, or your daily beater has died, you need another car now, but I think most people can wait without any real problem. I'm actually hoping that Tesla games the system and delays the 200,000th car until 04/01/2018. Extending the cutoff another 3 months could conceivably get another 50,000 to 100,000 people the full $7500 tax credit.

would you buy the Model 3 if the tax credit wasn't still available?

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Yes, I think I would. Its the same story with all new, expensive technology. I'm getting so tired of the anti-Tesla arguement that "its a rich man's toy". Cars 100 years ago were a rich man's toy, but if no one steps up and buys them, the necessary quantity would never be produced to bring the price down to where today anyone can afford a car. What if no one bought the first color TV sets? The first IBM computers? VCR's? If people like me that have the disposable income don't step up and buy a Tesla, they would never become mainstream in my lifetime, IMO. And, its not just for the "green factor". The cars are just so much better to drive in so many ways, and being able to cleanly refuel every day in my own garage, from my own solar, is a nice bonus. (Knowing that I'm not choking the people behind me in a cloud of diesel suet gives me a clearer conscience too. Florida has no emissions testing, which is quite evident by the number of gross poluters in my county. Aren't they teaching the kids anything about cleaning up the environment in school anymore? Sorry for the OT rant.)

With all that has been happening I have been wavering on upgrading now or upgrading later. That in itself is a silly notion, because there is always something better coming up. My current 15SV suits my needs, even at 41k miles and a GOM of 91 miles. I drive 26 miles to work in Atlanta, but I'll be moving to Miami in 3 months, where my one way jumps to 37. However, there is free L2 at the new office covered parking deck.

So, do I drive this until I need a new pack, or get the 18 Leaf, or get hampered with the long charging of the Bolt at any DCQC, or do I wait until '19? Add to this the idea of picking up a used '18 for a bargain...

These are good times to be in, and thanks to the early adopters for laying the ground work.

DNAinaGoodWay said:

By next year, Leaf will be pretty close to the 3.
.

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Hahahhahahahahhahaha

Jedlacks said:

I drive 26 miles to work in Atlanta, but I'll be moving to Miami in 3 months, where my one way jumps to 37. However, there is free L2 at the new office covered parking deck.

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The heat in Miami is going to hammer a 2018 non-TMS battery. I would just keep the Leaf you have now, and upgrade it later when/if necessary. This is especially true if Route 95 is most of your commute, where the high speeds will heat up the battery even more. FYI: People in the Miami/Ft Lauderdale have to be NASCAR certified.

SageBrush said:

DNAinaGoodWay said:

By next year, Leaf will be pretty close to the 3.
.

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Hahahhahahahahhahaha

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+1 Hahahahahaaha!!!!!!

edatoakrun said:

https://pushevs.com/2017/12/29/nissan-sees-leafs-competition/

The slide is claimed to be from Nissan, and certainly looks plausible.

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The slide was the same one shown and a pic taken of at https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155768448614413&set=g.170730229651313&type=1&theater&ifg=1. I was at the same EVent (at Nissan's Sunnyvale research office) as the person (Steve) who posted that pic. The slide was put up by Brian, a Nissan North America marketing guy who flew in from NNA HQ in TN.

I spoke to both Steve and Brian at that EVent which was in Sept 2017, right before the Cupertino EVent that weekend. It seems that since then, I've seen some slight variants of that slide shown by other Nissan corporate reps at other EVents elsewhere in the US.

Example: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1858820437491929&set=g.162244573806988&type=1&theater&ifg=1 posted in Oct 2017 which I believe was at another EVent in the Seattle area. The price adjustment/model grade slide from that EVent looked the same as the Sunnyvale EVent.

2011RedLeaf said:

Based on the results of my previous uncooled Leaf battery; without liquid cooling, I will either wait 3 years for off lease with near-perfect battery, require an impressive durability warrantee, or buy a Bolt. I'm impressed with the ability of my Volt battery to daily charge/discharge full capacity for my 60 miles (1/4 gallon of gas) daily use; with no capacity loss.

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Remember the Volt adjusts capacity looses to maintain a constant battery capacity as required by emissions regulations as the battery is part of the emissions control system. If it loses capacity you won't know so it's not accurate to say it does not lose capacity.

SageBrush said:

DNAinaGoodWay said:

By next year, Leaf will be pretty close to the 3.
.

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Hahahhahahahahhahaha

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I'll second that...

Remember the Volt adjusts capacity looses to maintain a constant battery capacity as required by emissions regulations as the battery is part of the emissions control system. If it loses capacity you won't know so it's not accurate to say it does not lose capacity.

This reminds me of the conundrum I face daily in interacting with my wife:
"If a man speaks in the woods and there is no woman to hear it; is he still wrong and inconsiderate?"

I much prefer the Volt, in which I need to take on faith that I am having battery loss than my in which the loss was blaringly proven such that I needed to purchase something else to accomplish a 60 mile day without ability to recharge.. After my first experience, with Nissan, it will take equally blaring proof that the range is durable before my last Nissan is a different vehicle than my first.

EVDRIVER said:

2011RedLeaf said:

Based on the results of my previous uncooled Leaf battery; without liquid cooling, I will either wait 3 years for off lease with near-perfect battery, require an impressive durability warrantee, or buy a Bolt. I'm impressed with the ability of my Volt battery to daily charge/discharge full capacity for my 60 miles (1/4 gallon of gas) daily use; with no capacity loss.

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Remember the Volt adjusts capacity looses to maintain a constant battery capacity as required by emissions regulations as the battery is part of the emissions control system. If it loses capacity you won't know so it's not accurate to say it does not lose capacity.

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I'm not familiar with any such regulation, although you may be right that the Volt is is eating into reserves to maintain range.

SageBrush said:

EVDRIVER said:

2011RedLeaf said:

Based on the results of my previous uncooled Leaf battery; without liquid cooling, I will either wait 3 years for off lease with near-perfect battery, require an impressive durability warrantee, or buy a Bolt. I'm impressed with the ability of my Volt battery to daily charge/discharge full capacity for my 60 miles (1/4 gallon of gas) daily use; with no capacity loss.

Click to expand...

Remember the Volt adjusts capacity looses to maintain a constant battery capacity as required by emissions regulations as the battery is part of the emissions control system. If it loses capacity you won't know so it's not accurate to say it does not lose capacity.

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I'm not familiar with any such regulation, although you may be right that the Volt is is eating into reserves to maintain range.

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Since it has an ICE the battery is part of the emissions system and must have a specific warranty and thus they must keep the capacity as such, This was done on the first Volt, they do dip into the capacity via software management.

EVDRIVER said:

SageBrush said:

EVDRIVER said:

Remember the Volt adjusts capacity looses to maintain a constant battery capacity as required by emissions regulations as the battery is part of the emissions control system. If it loses capacity you won't know so it's not accurate to say it does not lose capacity.

Click to expand...

I'm not familiar with any such regulation, although you may be right that the Volt is is eating into reserves to maintain range.

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Since it has an ICE the battery is part of the emissions system and must have a specific warranty and thus they must keep the capacity as such, This was done on the first Volt, they do dip into the capacity via software management.

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Can you show a warranty that specifies a battery range for a certain time/miles ?

SageBrush said:

EVDRIVER said:

SageBrush said:

I'm not familiar with any such regulation, although you may be right that the Volt is is eating into reserves to maintain range.

Click to expand...

Since it has an ICE the battery is part of the emissions system and must have a specific warranty and thus they must keep the capacity as such, This was done on the first Volt, they do dip into the capacity via software management.

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Can you show a warranty that specifies a battery range for a certain time/miles ?

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GM specifies the warranty it's pubic info.

cwerdna said:

edatoakrun said:

https://pushevs.com/2017/12/29/nissan-sees-leafs-competition/

The slide is claimed to be from Nissan, and certainly looks plausible.

Click to expand...

The slide was the same one shown and a pic taken of at https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155768448614413&set=g.170730229651313&type=1&theater&ifg=1. I was at the same EVent (at Nissan's Sunnyvale research office) as the person (Steve) who posted that pic. The slide was put up by Brian, a Nissan North America marketing guy who flew in from NNA HQ in TN...

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I was at Sunnyvale also, but do not have a photographic memory.

We should have a major clue as to the 2019 LEAF's actual EPA range will be, once the 150 (+ ?) mile EPA range of the 2018 "40 kWh" LEAF is revealed, perhaps in just a few days from now at San Diego.

EVDRIVER said:

SageBrush said:

EVDRIVER said:

Since it has an ICE the battery is part of the emissions system and must have a specific warranty and thus they must keep the capacity as such, This was done on the first Volt, they do dip into the capacity via software management.

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Can you show a warranty that specifies a battery range for a certain time/miles ?

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GM specifies the warranty it's pubic info.

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Er, presumably he means public info. To meet CARB regs, the Volt was required to qualify and warranty its emissions control system, which included the battery etc., for 10 yr./150k miles . They couldn't get the certification done in time for the 2011's introduction, so it didn't qualify as a TZEV. I can't remember if they were granted the cert as a mid-year thing or only on the 2012+ MYs. However, I'm not aware of any specific capacity requirement for the battery. Additionally, GM specifically denied that they held back any capacity when new, but given the lack of user-detectable degradation over a period of years, there's no other credible explanation.

Jedlacks said:

So, do I drive this until I need a new pack, or get the 18 Leaf, or get hampered with the long charging of the Bolt at any DCQC, or do I wait until '19? Add to this the idea of picking up a used '18 for a bargain...

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I'm not sure what you're saying about the Bolt here. You say it is "hampered" with long charging in the same sentence as talking about the 18 Leaf. How is it "hampered"? The Bolt charges at up to 55kW, assuming there is at least 160A available. According to Nissan, the '18 Leaf charges at up to 50kW. Put another way, Nissan claims 88 miles in 30 minutes while GM claims 90 miles in 30 minutes. That sounds like the same to me...