Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

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edatoakrun said:
cwerdna said:
edatoakrun said:
https://pushevs.com/2017/12/29/nissan-sees-leafs-competition/

The slide is claimed to be from Nissan, and certainly looks plausible.
The slide was the same one shown and a pic taken of at https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155768448614413&set=g.170730229651313&type=1&theater&ifg=1. I was at the same EVent (at Nissan's Sunnyvale research office) as the person (Steve) who posted that pic. The slide was put up by Brian, a Nissan North America marketing guy who flew in from NNA HQ in TN...
I was at Sunnyvale also, but do not have a photographic memory.

We should have a major clue as to the 2019 LEAF's actual EPA range will be, once the 150 (+ ?) mile EPA range of the 2018 "40 kWh" LEAF is revealed, perhaps in just a few days from now at San Diego.
I distinctly remember that slide and might've even had a picture of it but deleted since I wasn't sitting at a great angle vs. the screen.

I have pics of a few other slides (from an off-angle) on my phone still.

I suspect at least a few others who were at the same EVent will remember that slide. There were a few notable folks here on MNL (some not local) in attendance who I spoke to.
 
cwerdna said:
edatoakrun said:
...We should have a major clue as to the 2019 LEAF's actual EPA range will be, once the 150 (+ ?) mile EPA range of the 2018 "40 kWh" LEAF is revealed, perhaps in just a few days from now at San Diego.
I distinctly remember that slide ...
Perhaps you misunderstood my point.

We do not know the EPA range of the "40 kWh" LEAF yet, just that Nissan has said (as I interpret the various statements) that it will be at least 150 miles. If the range is only 150 miles, then either the available capacity of the "40 kWh" pack, or the efficiency is lower than what I would expect.
Guess the Monroney contest: Tesla 3 and LEAF 2 efficiency ratings
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=12&t=24340&start=10

I think it is very unlikely that Nissan will do what Tesla did with the model 3, intentionally understate the EPA range.

The EPA test results will eventually be posted and found by searching below, but we may get 2018 efficiency/ range info earlier from the first photo of the Monroney (window) sticker.

https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/pubsearch.jsp?pubmodule=1

Following this experience, I doubt we will know what "225+" miles range in the slide means in EPA range until shortly before the 2019 LEAF is released.
 
cwerdna said:
edatoakrun said:
https://pushevs.com/2017/12/29/nissan-sees-leafs-competition/

The slide is claimed to be from Nissan, and certainly looks plausible.
The slide was the same one shown and a pic taken of at https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10155768448614413&set=g.170730229651313&type=1&theater&ifg=1. I was at the same EVent (at Nissan's Sunnyvale research office) as the person (Steve) who posted that pic. The slide was put up by Brian, a Nissan North America marketing guy who flew in from NNA HQ in TN.

I spoke to both Steve and Brian at that EVent which was in Sept 2017, right before the Cupertino EVent that weekend. It seems that since then, I've seen some slight variants of that slide shown by other Nissan corporate reps at other EVents elsewhere in the US.

Example: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=1858820437491929&set=g.162244573806988&type=1&theater&ifg=1 posted in Oct 2017 which I believe was at another EVent in the Seattle area. The price adjustment/model grade slide from that EVent looked the same as the Sunnyvale EVent.

I think they are still tweaking which is a good thing. I am VERY pleased to see a supposed 64 kwh pack which I hope means 60 kwh usable with a better buffer. With TMS, the lower end will have to be bigger to prevent damage and allow TMS to run. I still think TMS is overblown and wish it was an option. I can live without it. ;)
 
GetOffYourGas said:
Jedlacks said:
So, do I drive this until I need a new pack, or get the 18 Leaf, or get hampered with the long charging of the Bolt at any DCQC, or do I wait until '19? Add to this the idea of picking up a used '18 for a bargain...

I'm not sure what you're saying about the Bolt here. You say it is "hampered" with long charging in the same sentence as talking about the 18 Leaf. How is it "hampered"? The Bolt charges at up to 55kW, assuming there is at least 160A available. According to Nissan, the '18 Leaf charges at up to 50kW. Put another way, Nissan claims 88 miles in 30 minutes while GM claims 90 miles in 30 minutes. That sounds like the same to me...

Been stuck behind Bolts A LOT and I can EASILY beat them in a charging race and this is at EVGO stations running as much as 132 amps (My LEAF only does 125 max)
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
With TMS, the lower end will have to be bigger to prevent damage and allow TMS to run. I still think TMS is overblown and wish it was an option. I can live without it. ;)
I just hope it is somewhat user selectable or some way to control it. IRRC can't Tesla adjust theirs? Basically widen the range or at least the lower end as to when it warms the battery up? Sometimes it would be nice to warm it up (like when plugged in) but not keep it warm all day while sitting at work.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
GetOffYourGas said:
Jedlacks said:
So, do I drive this until I need a new pack, or get the 18 Leaf, or get hampered with the long charging of the Bolt at any DCQC, or do I wait until '19? Add to this the idea of picking up a used '18 for a bargain...

I'm not sure what you're saying about the Bolt here. You say it is "hampered" with long charging in the same sentence as talking about the 18 Leaf. How is it "hampered"? The Bolt charges at up to 55kW, assuming there is at least 160A available. According to Nissan, the '18 Leaf charges at up to 50kW. Put another way, Nissan claims 88 miles in 30 minutes while GM claims 90 miles in 30 minutes. That sounds like the same to me...

Been stuck behind Bolts A LOT and I can EASILY beat them in a charging race and this is at EVGO stations running as much as 132 amps (My LEAF only does 125 max)

Charging race to what? A % SoC or in absolute energy added?

Suppose you and I were to have identical water fountains. We are racing to fill up a cup with water. I have a 4 oz dixie cup and you have a 22oz tumbler. Who is going to win this race?

The Bolt's sweet spot for charging is starting at about 10% and going to about 55%. That's adding 45% of 60kWh which is 27kWh. This can be done in roughly half an hour with a proper DCQC (at least 160A). Trust me, I would love to only charge my Bolt for 30 minutes at a time and be on my way. Until there are many more DCQCs, and which provide more than 100A, it's just not an option to me. While you may be charging your Leaf to make it 50 miles home, I am charging my bolt to make it 120 miles to the next DCQC location on my trip. So bear with me. In the end, we are both on the same side here.
 
GetOffYourGas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
GetOffYourGas said:
I'm not sure what you're saying about the Bolt here. You say it is "hampered" with long charging in the same sentence as talking about the 18 Leaf. How is it "hampered"? The Bolt charges at up to 55kW, assuming there is at least 160A available. According to Nissan, the '18 Leaf charges at up to 50kW. Put another way, Nissan claims 88 miles in 30 minutes while GM claims 90 miles in 30 minutes. That sounds like the same to me...

Been stuck behind Bolts A LOT and I can EASILY beat them in a charging race and this is at EVGO stations running as much as 132 amps (My LEAF only does 125 max)

Charging race to what? A % SoC or in absolute energy added?

Suppose you and I were to have identical water fountains. We are racing to fill up a cup with water. I have a 4 oz dixie cup and you have a 22oz tumbler. Who is going to win this race?

The Bolt's sweet spot for charging is starting at about 10% and going to about 55%. That's adding 45% of 60kWh which is 27kWh. This can be done in roughly half an hour with a proper DCQC (at least 160A). Trust me, I would love to only charge my Bolt for 30 minutes at a time and be on my way. Until there are many more DCQCs, and which provide more than 100A, it's just not an option to me. While you may be charging your Leaf to make it 50 miles home, I am charging my bolt to make it 120 miles to the next DCQC location on my trip. So bear with me. In the end, we are both on the same side here.

So you are saying one of two things;

If the trip is short enough AKA a few miles beyond the LEAF range, you win

or

Eventually (when they exist) you will win due to faster charging.


Otherwise, its already been proven the Bolt loses in a race.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
GetOffYourGas said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Been stuck behind Bolts A LOT and I can EASILY beat them in a charging race and this is at EVGO stations running as much as 132 amps (My LEAF only does 125 max)

Charging race to what? A % SoC or in absolute energy added?

Suppose you and I were to have identical water fountains. We are racing to fill up a cup with water. I have a 4 oz dixie cup and you have a 22oz tumbler. Who is going to win this race?

The Bolt's sweet spot for charging is starting at about 10% and going to about 55%. That's adding 45% of 60kWh which is 27kWh. This can be done in roughly half an hour with a proper DCQC (at least 160A). Trust me, I would love to only charge my Bolt for 30 minutes at a time and be on my way. Until there are many more DCQCs, and which provide more than 100A, it's just not an option to me. While you may be charging your Leaf to make it 50 miles home, I am charging my bolt to make it 120 miles to the next DCQC location on my trip. So bear with me. In the end, we are both on the same side here.

So you are saying one of two things;

If the trip is short enough AKA a few miles beyond the LEAF range, you win

or

Eventually (when they exist) you will win due to faster charging.


Otherwise, its already been proven the Bolt loses in a race.

Dave, you did not answer my question, only reasserted your baseless conclusion.
 
Anyone who talks of the Leaf winning against a Bolt is delusional with all things considered. The thermal battery management of Bolt far outshines the NO thermal management of Leaf at this time and maybe well into the future. We can only hope that Nissan will fix this for 2019. The loss of value of our Leafs is a glaring reflection of this battery shortcoming. I believe the Bolt will have very good resale value compared to the Leaf until or unless Nissan repairs its battery reputation.
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
... I still think TMS is overblown and wish it was an option. I can live without it. ;)

It may be that the new chemistry cannot live without it. Which would unfortunately may a step away from the very stable (in terms of thermal runaway) gen1 LEAF chemistry.
 
Nubo said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
... I still think TMS is overblown and wish it was an option. I can live without it. ;)

It may be that the new chemistry cannot live without it. Which would unfortunately may a step away from the very stable (in terms of thermal runaway) gen1 LEAF chemistry.

I think they will need it for 100K useful charging. At least where you can find it to be useful and reasonable. :shock:
 
EVDRIVER said:
Nubo said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
... I still think TMS is overblown and wish it was an option. I can live without it. ;)

It may be that the new chemistry cannot live without it. Which would unfortunately may a step away from the very stable (in terms of thermal runaway) gen1 LEAF chemistry.

I think they will need it for 100K useful charging. At least where you can find it to be useful and reasonable. :shock:

Or adjust the charging taper as a function of battery & ambient temperatures, and possibly the thermal time constant of the battery.
 
lorenfb said:
EVDRIVER said:
Nubo said:
It may be that the new chemistry cannot live without it. Which would unfortunately may a step away from the very stable (in terms of thermal runaway) gen1 LEAF chemistry.

I think they will need it for 100K useful charging. At least where you can find it to be useful and reasonable. :shock:

Or adjust the charging taper as a function of battery & ambient temperatures, and possibly the thermal time constant of the battery.

custom charge levels would solve a lot of it
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
lorenfb said:
EVDRIVER said:
I think they will need it for 100K useful charging. At least where you can find it to be useful and reasonable. :shock:

Or adjust the charging taper as a function of battery & ambient temperatures, and possibly the thermal time constant of the battery.

custom charge levels would solve a lot of it

So Nissan did away with the 80% battery saver option for EPA reasons, I wonder how Tesla is able to have user selectable charge levels without it interfering with EPA ratings? So knowing this why doesn't Nissan do the same thing? Might help mitigate so many warranty battery replacement claims.
 
Nissan got dinged because they used the wording "battery saving" or "Long Life" or something like that in 2013. Tesla says nothing about battery life. GM cleverly calls it "Hilltop Reserve." Since then Nissan has just plain refused to make the obvious adjustment in wording, instead punishing us for their cars' shortcomings. If the 40kwh pack is anything like the 30kwh pack in longevity, they will see a sales nosedive in 2019 or 2020.
 
Doesn't it make financial sense for Nissan to word it differently rather then let their batteries degrade prematurely? I just don't understand the business model of doing a bunch of battery warranty replacements instead of implementing a "hilltop reserve" mode like Chevy Bolt does? I could see Nissan not caring if they didn't have a capacity warranty.

So do we know for sure that the 2018 Leaf doesn't have any type of "battery saver" setting?
 
Orient Express has told us no charge limiter (he implied it was archaic) for the 2018. There isn't actually much strong evidence that charging to 100% normally is the main factor in Nissan pack degradation. It's just that it's well known that lithium batteries don't like to sit at 100% charge for long periods.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Orient Express has told us no charge limiter (he implied it was archaic) for the 2018. There isn't actually much strong evidence that charging to 100% normally is the main factor in Nissan pack degradation. It's just that it's well known that lithium batteries don't like to sit at 100% charge for long periods.

Charged to 100% every time with no degradation of any kind after three plus years. Heat and letting it sit are the issues.
 
The letting it sit at 100% is why a charge limiter or battery saver option would be nice. So what do you do when your car reaches 100% in the middle of the night while you're sleeping? That means it will sit at 100% for hours on end, not good. Not many people are going to set charge timers every day either. Makes no sense to not have a charge limiting option like Tesla or Bolt.
 
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