No Brakes!

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Well... almost no brakes. I had a strange thing happen today. I got in and drove about 3 miles to my new house I'm building up a steep hill. Got there, parked and proceeded to do stuff inside. About 30 minutes later I had to run back into town, so I got in and started up as I always do, (with my foot on the brake pedal), put it into drive and immediately it started to roll forward... with my foot on the brake! This was more than a bit unnerving as my road immediately heads down a very steep gravel drive. All I could do to stop the car was engage the emergency brake and then put it back into park.

I noticed that my ABS light was flashing on the dash. So I carefully put it back into drive, took off the e-brake and again it was like I had no brakes... except that the ABS was pulsating whenever I just barely touched the brakes, and if I stomped the brake almost to the floor, then the car would come to a complete stop. But as soon as I eased off of the brake, again the ABS would pulsate, but not stop the car at all. The only way I could get the car to stop was to literally push the pedal all the way to the floor. So I VERY carefully got down my drive to level ground, turned the car completely off and tried to figure out what the heck was going on. After not finding anything obvious, I started the car again, and again had the same problem. Turned the car off and again tried to think about it. After about 15 minutes, I turned it back on, and now all seemed to be fine! I was able to drive back to town and all seemed to be well.

So what the heck was that all about? Has anyone else experienced anything like this? It was/is cold out (about -5 Fahrenheit with a -30 wind-chill), but it has been like this before with no issues. Let me know if you have any ideas and many thanks as always.
 
Just got finished talking with Nissan North America. I explained to them that the closest dealer to me, (I'm in Skagway, AK), was in Bellingham, WA and that it would require an expensive Ferry or Barge trip to get it to them. I was told by an independent mechanic in Juneau Alaska that on safety recalls such as this, Nissan is required to transport your vehicle to an authorized service center for people in remote locations such as me. Well, Nissan essentially told me "tough sh__t". We will not pay to transport your vehicle to a service center.

So I guess I just don't drive it when it cold outside :roll: ... or if I do, make sure I bring along an anchor that I can throw out the window if I need to brake.

This has been my first issue in which I had to deal with Nissan. Have to say... I'm not impressed.
 
It certainly sounds like you have the recall issue. But before you give up, do yourself a favor and check the 12V lead-acid battery. There are dozens of threads on this board about the crazy stuff that happens when that battery goes bad, including brake system failures.
 
brotherjethro said:
It certainly sounds like you have the recall issue. But before you give up, do yourself a favor and check the 12V lead-acid battery. There are dozens of threads on this board about the crazy stuff that happens when that battery goes bad, including brake system failures.

+1 on the battery check.

Also, it looks like there's a Nissan in Whitehorse. Is it not possible for you to get serviced there? The brake relay recall was software update only, iirc.
 
Nubo said:
brotherjethro said:
It certainly sounds like you have the recall issue. But before you give up, do yourself a favor and check the 12V lead-acid battery. There are dozens of threads on this board about the crazy stuff that happens when that battery goes bad, including brake system failures.

+1 on the battery check.

Also, it looks like there's a Nissan in Whitehorse. Is it not possible for you to get serviced there? The brake relay recall was software update only, iirc.
Yes... the Nissan dealer in Whitehorse (about 120 miles from me), in theory could do the work and I'm planning on checking with them. But, from past experience with other cars I've owned, the Canadian branches of auto manufactures are usually not keen on doing warranty or recall work on US vehicles. Also, I know that the Whitehorse dealer doesn't even know what a LEAF is. They don't sell them because nobody in the Yukon Territory is crazy enough to even consider an EV ;) And also, I still have to get it up there, and that is not an easy proposition since there is NOTHING between here and there except a very steep mountain pass, (with mountain goats, bears, moose, and this time of year, -40 degree air temps), and no places to recharge. So still a challenge, but I do plan to give them a call tomorrow. I suppose I could always arrange for an expensive tow if necessary.

Thanks
 
+1 on check the 12v battery. If you can, charge it externally and make sure it is fully charged. If the issue doesn't go away at least you can rule out a simple fix. I know when our 12v is dead we have all sort of weird things happen, even though the car starts and one of the times we had no brakes, but we had all kinds of other warning lights on, on the dash. Charged up the 12v and that fixed it all.
 
Before you take it to the dealer, check your VIN with the recall check website:

https://www.nissanusa.com/recalls-vin/#/#/Home

If the recall hasn't been addressed on your LEAF, it should list that.
 
Leaver said:
NOTHING between here and there except a very steep mountain pass, (with mountain goats, bears, moose, and this time of year, -40 degree air temps), and no places to recharge. So still a challenge, but I do plan to give them a call tomorrow. I suppose I could always arrange for an expensive tow if necessary.

EV trip planner says you don't make it, without a charge stop. Uses 26 kWh going, and you don't have 26 kWh. On a warm day, not in winter. Don't even think about trying this in winter.

https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner/2-8/?id=604wa80t


Greenrace says you don't make it there. You might make it back, if you can drive at 40 km per hour.

http://www.jurassictest.ch/GR/

1000 meters of climb, then another 1000+ meters of short up and downs.

I don't fully trust both of these tools out of the box, but for a sanity test they do the job.

OK, with a midpoint charge.

Best bet for a charging stop that I could find is is "Montana RV Park" in Carcross. Looks like they probably have TT30 plugs, just looking at the wires connecting trailers on Google Maps streetview. Even this is scary getting to, EV trip planner suggests you need 17 kW to get here from Skagway. However, if you get there, and get a full charge in Whitehorse... Opps, dealer doesn't seem to have a charging station handy... But there are several RV parks with 30 Amp service (probably TT30).

TT30 can support 24 Amp 120V. About two and a half faster than the 12 Amp 120V cable that comes with the car. Maybe 9 to 10 miles of range per hour of charging, or 2.4 kWh or so. But you need a special TT30 adapter, and you need a portable 24 Amp or more capable charger that will support 120V at that current.

So at best case, drive to Carcross, charge for 7 hours, drive to Whitehorse, get the work done, charge for 4 hours at one of several RV parks, drive to Carcross, charge for 4 hours, arrive home with half a battery. Adventure!! :shock: :roll:

Doesn't leave much margin, not to mention lack of alternatives. Oh, and how busy/fast is the traffic? I'm not at all sure if I believe the speed estimates in EV trip planner. Seems slower than I would expect.
 
Check with that mechanic as to the source of his belief that Nissan has to ship it to get it fixed. That might be an Alaska regulation that Nissan customer service is ignoring. If it is, a call to the correct regulator might prompt a change in Nissan's response. Sadly, it is amazing how much companies will try to get away with.
 
WetEV said:
Leaver said:
NOTHING between here and there except a very steep mountain pass, (with mountain goats, bears, moose, and this time of year, -40 degree air temps), and no places to recharge. So still a challenge, but I do plan to give them a call tomorrow. I suppose I could always arrange for an expensive tow if necessary.

EV trip planner says you don't make it, without a charge stop. Uses 26 kWh going, and you don't have 26 kWh. On a warm day, not in winter. Don't even think about trying this in winter.

https://www.evtripplanner.com/planner/2-8/?id=604wa80t


Greenrace says you don't make it there. You might make it back, if you can drive at 40 km per hour.

http://www.jurassictest.ch/GR/

1000 meters of climb, then another 1000+ meters of short up and downs.

I don't fully trust both of these tools out of the box, but for a sanity test they do the job.

OK, with a midpoint charge.

Best bet for a charging stop that I could find is is "Montana RV Park" in Carcross. Looks like they probably have TT30 plugs, just looking at the wires connecting trailers on Google Maps streetview. Even this is scary getting to, EV trip planner suggests you need 17 kW to get here from Skagway. However, if you get there, and get a full charge in Whitehorse... Opps, dealer doesn't seem to have a charging station handy... But there are several RV parks with 30 Amp service (probably TT30).

TT30 can support 24 Amp 120V. About two and a half faster than the 12 Amp 120V cable that comes with the car. Maybe 9 to 10 miles of range per hour of charging, or 2.4 kWh or so. But you need a special TT30 adapter, and you need a portable 24 Amp or more capable charger that will support 120V at that current.

So at best case, drive to Carcross, charge for 7 hours, drive to Whitehorse, get the work done, charge for 4 hours at one of several RV parks, drive to Carcross, charge for 4 hours, arrive home with half a battery. Adventure!! :shock: :roll:

Doesn't leave much margin, not to mention lack of alternatives. Oh, and how busy/fast is the traffic? I'm not at all sure if I believe the speed estimates in EV trip planner. Seems slower than I would expect.
Thanks so much for doing that research.

Carcross would be the first and only place along the route that might be able to help. But it's about 65 miles from me, and because I have to drive straight up White Pass, I don't stand a chance at getting there... MAYBE in the summer with a 50 mph tail wind :lol: But certainly not a prayer this time of year. The route is a pretty rough road (not what most people would consider a "highway"). In perfect summer conditions, it takes a little over a hour driving at 60-65 mph. This time of year, there is deep snow, avalanches, -40 temps with -60 windchills. Realistically, I would have to hire a tow truck out of Whitehorse to drive to Skagway and then tow the LEAF back to Whitehorse.
 
More info here on the brake recall:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2016/RCMN-16V119-1600.pdf

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/rcl/2016/RCLRPT-16V119-8978.PDF

It sounds like the fix is 100% software, no hardware changes are required. The TSB is NTB15-089, which any Nissan dealer should be able to lookup. However, apparently only EV certified techs are supposed to implement this TSB. Apparently a "CONSULT III plus" is needed for the reprogramming.

I recalled reading on these forums about how to disable the TCS, VDC, and ABS systems for performance reasons. So, after a search, I found the post:

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=24738

You could try pulling the F17 fuse (see photo in that post) to disable the ABS system. Presumably, having functioning brakes with no ABS would be better than no brakes at all. That might at least get you through to summer, when a trip to a Nissan dealer for reprogramming would be more viable.

NOTE: the PDF, second URL above, states:

October 2015 – Nissan launched a voluntary service campaign in the U.S. and Canada on MY 2013-2015 LEAF vehicles to address an issue where vehicles would go into “VDC assist” mode upon vehicle start-up in extremely cold weather conditions

So, perhaps the VDC also has to be disabled...

Whatever you decide to do, you do so at your own risk.
 
Not a great option, but perhaps you could order the entire brake booster assembly:

https://goo.gl/JgKj9L

That's the latest part # for the brake booster, which I would guess already have the updated software, but you'd want to check that with a dealer before ordering.

FWIW, here's the TSB procedure that the mechanic would follow:

https://static.nhtsa.gov/odi/tsbs/2015/SB-10074570-2280.pdf
 
Lots of great information. Thank you all for taking the time and the references. I'll get it figured out somehow.

Thank You!
 
LeftieBiker said:
TT30 can support 24 Amp 120V. About two and a half faster than the 12 Amp 120V cable that comes with the car.

I make it exactly twice as fast - no more.

Would be true if there were not circulation pumps and such what that use a few hundred watts. The faster charge rate is more efficient.
 
Just thought I'd report back.

I removed the 12V battery and gave it a full charge overnight. Reinstalled it this morning, and so far so good. I have not had the brake issue again, but it is a balmy 10 degrees above now. Apparently the issue only happens if it's below 0 degrees, so I suppose we'll see what happens when it cools off again.

This was certainly a "pucker" moment and you should all be aware of this issue if you're not already... especially as so many of you are experiencing very cold temps this winter. Just keep it in the back of your mind if you lose your brakes and be prepared to stop your vehicle via other methods.

So many thanks again for your help. Not sure what to do long term about the recall fix, but I'll continue to look into the possibilities.

Thanks
 
IIRC, the recall is about the booster unit freezing up in extreme cold, and it just cycles the booster regularly to keep it from doing that. So warmer temps might be the only reason for the problem appearing to go away. I just wanted you to know that...
 
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