Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

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EVDRIVER said:
LeftieBiker said:
Orient Express has told us no charge limiter (he implied it was archaic) for the 2018. There isn't actually much strong evidence that charging to 100% normally is the main factor in Nissan pack degradation. It's just that it's well known that lithium batteries don't like to sit at 100% charge for long periods.

Charged to 100% every time with no degradation of any kind after three plus years. Heat and letting it sit are the issues.

Do you drive the car every day when it's warm?
 
LeftieBiker said:
EVDRIVER said:
LeftieBiker said:
Orient Express has told us no charge limiter (he implied it was archaic) for the 2018. There isn't actually much strong evidence that charging to 100% normally is the main factor in Nissan pack degradation. It's just that it's well known that lithium batteries don't like to sit at 100% charge for long periods.

Charged to 100% every time with no degradation of any kind after three plus years. Heat and letting it sit are the issues.

Do you drive the car every day when it's warm?

Yes- Highest temp 103. It never sat at 100%
 
EVDRIVER said:
LeftieBiker said:
EVDRIVER said:
Charged to 100% every time with no degradation of any kind after three plus years. Heat and letting it sit are the issues.

Do you drive the car every day when it's warm?

Yes- Highest temp 103. It never sat at 100%

How do you mange to never let your car sit at 100%? I'm just curious, seems like it would be a lot of work and take an awful lot of planning to pull this off every day.
 
rcm4453 said:
EVDRIVER said:
LeftieBiker said:
Do you drive the car every day when it's warm?

Yes- Highest temp 103. It never sat at 100%

How do you mange to never let your car sit at 100%? I'm just curious, seems like it would be a lot of work and take an awful lot of planning to pull this off every day.

Yes, some planning is required, but it's not that difficult. As an example, the previous evening I know in advance whether the next day's
travel exceeds my Leaf's range, e.g. availability of QCs and travel time necessity, in which case the ICEV is used. Then the Leaf doesn't get
charged the previous night. I rarely if ever return home from that day's business with more than 30-40% SOC. If returning with the ICEV
and local business travel is required and time permits, I'll charge the Leaf at home for a few hours at 220V, but only to the SOC which results
in enough range to return home at much less than 100% SOC.
 
You set a charge end timer for a specific time and the car calculates back from there. You drive the car shortly after that charge cycle is done. I’m not sure how that is difficult or requires much planning of any kind. I guess you have to plan to remember to plug it in.
 
EVDRIVER said:
You set a charge end timer for a specific time and the car calculates back from there. You drive the car shortly after that charge cycle is done. I’m not sure how that is difficult or requires much planning of any kind. I guess you have to plan to remember to plug it in.

Right. It doesn't require much planning at all, provided you have a known steady schedule.
 
EVDRIVER said:
You set a charge end timer for a specific time and the car calculates back from there. You drive the car shortly after that charge cycle is done. I’m not sure how that is difficult or requires much planning of any kind. I guess you have to plan to remember to plug it in.

I'm guessing you have a 2011-2015 leaf, because the charge timer on the 2016 is screwed up!! It overestimates how much time it needs to finish charging (including balancing).

I've had to set my timer to end at 10:30am, even though I will use the car at 8am (ends just at 95+% SOC). But that only works when the SOC starts around 40+%. If I get home with 20% SOC, then I have to adjust it down an additional 10 minutes, because of that damn code that overestimates how long it really needs. My 2013 also had some variability, but it was well under an hour.

So with Nissan's current battery chemistry and charge timer, you can forget about relying on that to preserve your battery.
 
EVDRIVER said:
You set a charge end timer for a specific time and the car calculates back from there. You drive the car shortly after that charge cycle is done. I’m not sure how that is difficult or requires much planning of any kind. I guess you have to plan to remember to plug it in.


Well I have a 2016 SV and the charge timer sucks, not accurate at all. Plus I actually have a life, I go do things I don't just go to work and go home, was a total pain trying to adjust and plan for when I will be going out next and trying to make sure it wouldn't be sitting at 100% SoC.

Not only that even after doing this for a few months I noticed my battery was degrading anyway, despite all this silly monkeying around with charge timers every day!

I no longer care I just charge it and drive it. My lease is up in about a year anyway so unless the 2019 Leaf has a hilltop reserve or some way to set what SoC you want I will move on to something different. The bottom line is the end user shouldn't have to jump through hoops because Nissan doesn't know what they're doing. How hard would it have been for them to implement a hilltop reserve mode or just do it like Tesla does (user selectable SoC)?
 
I'm guessing you have a 2011-2015 leaf, because the charge timer on the 2016 is screwed up!! It overestimates how much time it needs to finish charging (including balancing).

They all do that. I ignore the car's time estimate and go by the charge rate per hour. In my case that's between 5% and 6% on L-1. When I get my 20A L-2 installed it will be about 20% per hour, or about 11% per hour for the 2018 Leaf, which I will also have to manually unplug because Nissan is run by idiots.
 
rcm4453 said:
EVDRIVER said:
LeftieBiker said:
Do you drive the car every day when it's warm?

Yes- Highest temp 103. It never sat at 100%

How do you mange to never let your car sit at 100%? I'm just curious, seems like it would be a lot of work and take an awful lot of planning to pull this off every day.

Actually, using the charging timer, this is very easy, just time it to be done charging when you are ready to go. But really my understanding of it is if the battery sits at 100% for more than about 8 hours is what is bad and for me, we don't have a charger at home, so it never sits at 100%, as I have to drive it home after charging, although that is only a couple of blocks.
 
Blast the heat in Normal mode on the drive home. You want it showing less than 98%.

Speaking of which, mine is currently parked covered with ice, with the pack at virtually 100%. If I still had remote access I could soften the ice with the cabin heater and bring the SOC down as well, all without leaving the house. As it is I'll be using tepid water to get into it tomorrow. It's 12F outside now, with a brisk breeze.
 
rcm4453 said:
Doesn't it make financial sense for Nissan to word it differently rather then let their batteries degrade prematurely? I just don't understand the business model of doing a bunch of battery warranty replacements instead of implementing a "hilltop reserve" mode like Chevy Bolt does? I could see Nissan not caring if they didn't have a capacity warranty.

So do we know for sure that the 2018 Leaf doesn't have any type of "battery saver" setting?

We are not sure of anything really. Anyone know?

The reality is Nissan was pretty much Pro Pilot and not much of anything else....
 
cmwade77 said:
rcm4453 said:
EVDRIVER said:
Yes- Highest temp 103. It never sat at 100%

How do you mange to never let your car sit at 100%? I'm just curious, seems like it would be a lot of work and take an awful lot of planning to pull this off every day.

Actually, using the charging timer, this is very easy, just time it to be done charging when you are ready to go. But really my understanding of it is if the battery sits at 100% for more than about 8 hours is what is bad and for me, we don't have a charger at home, so it never sits at 100%, as I have to drive it home after charging, although that is only a couple of blocks.


"more than 8 hours" statements need to be clarified. It only takes a second for heat and High SOC to start playing the bad guy.

So we balance need with BMS and charge management. Problem with all that is it will take 2 years (since one year is not enough to convince anyone of anything) to really provide decent anecdotal evidence.

The big ask; Is it better to charge to 100% during the coolest part of the day (night) even if its not all that cool and then drive it to under 80% first thing in the morning or is it better to fast charge in the middle of the day getting the batteries hotter but driving down that high SOC right away.

Realize the slower charge option means high SOC both coming and going and in the L2 situation, it could be as much as 2 hours because of the speed of the charge. Now you can drive enough to lower the SOC to a less dangerous range in 20-30 mins easy enough.

Wnat would be nice is a comprehensive profile of what an active TMS actually does, when it does what and to what degree it does it. Problem we have is Nissan is only pack that good monitoring programs and yes, the monitoring program is only as good as the instrumentation feeding it and we all know that Nissan instrumentation isn't that good. Of course it wasn't meant for public consumption so it leaves a lot to be desired but at least its something.

Everything else seems to be more user inputted opinions based on something
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
cmwade77 said:
rcm4453 said:
How do you mange to never let your car sit at 100%? I'm just curious, seems like it would be a lot of work and take an awful lot of planning to pull this off every day.

Actually, using the charging timer, this is very easy, just time it to be done charging when you are ready to go. But really my understanding of it is if the battery sits at 100% for more than about 8 hours is what is bad and for me, we don't have a charger at home, so it never sits at 100%, as I have to drive it home after charging, although that is only a couple of blocks.


"more than 8 hours" statements need to be clarified. It only takes a second for heat and High SOC to start playing the bad guy.

So we balance need with BMS and charge management. Problem with all that is it will take 2 years (since one year is not enough to convince anyone of anything) to really provide decent anecdotal evidence.

The big ask; Is it better to charge to 100% during the coolest part of the day (night) even if its not all that cool and then drive it to under 80% first thing in the morning or is it better to fast charge in the middle of the day getting the batteries hotter but driving down that high SOC right away.

Realize the slower charge option means high SOC both coming and going and in the L2 situation, it could be as much as 2 hours because of the speed of the charge. Now you can drive enough to lower the SOC to a less dangerous range in 20-30 mins easy enough.

Wnat would be nice is a comprehensive profile of what an active TMS actually does, when it does what and to what degree it does it. Problem we have is Nissan is only pack that good monitoring programs and yes, the monitoring program is only as good as the instrumentation feeding it and we all know that Nissan instrumentation isn't that good. Of course it wasn't meant for public consumption so it leaves a lot to be desired but at least its something.

Everything else seems to be more user inputted opinions based on something

anecdotal evidence of 1 here. But I noticed the effect temperature had on the battery during the early spring and late fall months with my 2013 leaf. I had set the timer to 8am and 80% and left it that way for years 1 & 2. During those time periods (and sometimes in winter), there would be an almost 20-degree jump in temperature between 6am and 10am. Normally, I would leave with an SOC of 79%, but those months, I'd often see 82-83%, with the most drastic difference being 85% (it was a VERY cold night followed by a very rapid warm up).

So like with everything else, it depends. I think for high-desert/arid region residents, it might be safer to do the middle day fast charging during the cold periods, and then switch to overnight charging during the hot periods. But that's just conjecture on the thought that we don't want the battery charge to exceed 100%.
 
I guess another part of it is I am in a very temperate climate, yes we have our hot days and our cool days, but overall since I live in Long Beach, CA, we don't generally have too many days over 100 or under 60.
 
Evoforce said:
Anyone who talks of the Leaf winning against a Bolt is delusional with all things considered. The thermal battery management of Bolt far outshines the NO thermal management of Leaf at this time and maybe well into the future. We can only hope that Nissan will fix this for 2019. The loss of value of our Leafs is a glaring reflection of this battery shortcoming. I believe the Bolt will have very good resale value compared to the Leaf until or unless Nissan repairs its battery reputation.
I'm not sure how much consumers care about TMS. I know everyone here could agree that on the whole EV buyers are more educated than the average joe, but still not all would know/care.

I for one agree that the lack of a capable TMS in the leaf is a real concern if buying for the long-term (mostly irrelevant for a lease buy). I've seen some [admittedly somewhat compelling] explanations about why it doesn't have it and maybe doesn't need it, but I'd still like to see one. Other manufacturers, including the preeminent EV entity, seem to think it's necessary.
 
Sorry if this was posted previously, but these guys did a nice job comparing and contrasting the new LEAF and the Tesla Model 3:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ArccdUAtxhQ[/youtube]
 
I don't care whether a laptop has a GPU with fan or not. Same way I shouldn't have to care about the TMS - just longevity of the battery. At this point ball is in Nissan's court to prove the batteries are good after a few years in reasonably warm places like Florida. Until then, I'd suggest that everyone lease.
 
I made a comparison table, though some data is incomplete.
The LEAF SL and SV have the stand-out value of TACC, but in most other respects the base Tesla Model 3 either matches or trounces the high end LEAF.

uc
 
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