cmwade77
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:04 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2017

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:16 pm

rcm4453 wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:
Do you drive the car every day when it's warm?


Yes- Highest temp 103. It never sat at 100%


How do you mange to never let your car sit at 100%? I'm just curious, seems like it would be a lot of work and take an awful lot of planning to pull this off every day.


Actually, using the charging timer, this is very easy, just time it to be done charging when you are ready to go. But really my understanding of it is if the battery sits at 100% for more than about 8 hours is what is bad and for me, we don't have a charger at home, so it never sits at 100%, as I have to drive it home after charging, although that is only a couple of blocks.

LeftieBiker
Posts: 9835
Joined: Wed May 22, 2013 3:17 am
Delivery Date: 30 Apr 2018
Location: Upstate New York, US

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:29 pm

Blast the heat in Normal mode on the drive home. You want it showing less than 98%.

Speaking of which, mine is currently parked covered with ice, with the pack at virtually 100%. If I still had remote access I could soften the ice with the cabin heater and bring the SOC down as well, all without leaving the house. As it is I'll be using tepid water to get into it tomorrow. It's 12F outside now, with a brisk breeze.
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13336
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:37 pm

rcm4453 wrote:Doesn't it make financial sense for Nissan to word it differently rather then let their batteries degrade prematurely? I just don't understand the business model of doing a bunch of battery warranty replacements instead of implementing a "hilltop reserve" mode like Chevy Bolt does? I could see Nissan not caring if they didn't have a capacity warranty.

So do we know for sure that the 2018 Leaf doesn't have any type of "battery saver" setting?


We are not sure of anything really. Anyone know?

The reality is Nissan was pretty much Pro Pilot and not much of anything else....
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

DaveinOlyWA
Posts: 13336
Joined: Sat Apr 24, 2010 7:43 pm
Delivery Date: 16 Feb 2018
Leaf Number: 314199
Location: Olympia, WA
Contact: Website

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Sun Jan 14, 2018 3:47 pm

cmwade77 wrote:
rcm4453 wrote:
EVDRIVER wrote:
Yes- Highest temp 103. It never sat at 100%


How do you mange to never let your car sit at 100%? I'm just curious, seems like it would be a lot of work and take an awful lot of planning to pull this off every day.


Actually, using the charging timer, this is very easy, just time it to be done charging when you are ready to go. But really my understanding of it is if the battery sits at 100% for more than about 8 hours is what is bad and for me, we don't have a charger at home, so it never sits at 100%, as I have to drive it home after charging, although that is only a couple of blocks.



"more than 8 hours" statements need to be clarified. It only takes a second for heat and High SOC to start playing the bad guy.

So we balance need with BMS and charge management. Problem with all that is it will take 2 years (since one year is not enough to convince anyone of anything) to really provide decent anecdotal evidence.

The big ask; Is it better to charge to 100% during the coolest part of the day (night) even if its not all that cool and then drive it to under 80% first thing in the morning or is it better to fast charge in the middle of the day getting the batteries hotter but driving down that high SOC right away.

Realize the slower charge option means high SOC both coming and going and in the L2 situation, it could be as much as 2 hours because of the speed of the charge. Now you can drive enough to lower the SOC to a less dangerous range in 20-30 mins easy enough.

Wnat would be nice is a comprehensive profile of what an active TMS actually does, when it does what and to what degree it does it. Problem we have is Nissan is only pack that good monitoring programs and yes, the monitoring program is only as good as the instrumentation feeding it and we all know that Nissan instrumentation isn't that good. Of course it wasn't meant for public consumption so it leaves a lot to be desired but at least its something.

Everything else seems to be more user inputted opinions based on something
2011 SL; 44,598 miles. 2013 S; 44,840 miles.2016 S30 deceased. 29,413 miles. 2018 S40; 11,987 miles, 485 GIDs, 37.6 kwh 110.89 Ahr , SOH 96.00, Hx 115.22
My Blog; http://daveinolywa.blogspot.com" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Oils4AsphaultOnly
Posts: 496
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 4:09 pm
Delivery Date: 20 Nov 2016
Leaf Number: 313890
Location: Arcadia, CA

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 15, 2018 10:09 am

DaveinOlyWA wrote:
cmwade77 wrote:
rcm4453 wrote:
How do you mange to never let your car sit at 100%? I'm just curious, seems like it would be a lot of work and take an awful lot of planning to pull this off every day.


Actually, using the charging timer, this is very easy, just time it to be done charging when you are ready to go. But really my understanding of it is if the battery sits at 100% for more than about 8 hours is what is bad and for me, we don't have a charger at home, so it never sits at 100%, as I have to drive it home after charging, although that is only a couple of blocks.



"more than 8 hours" statements need to be clarified. It only takes a second for heat and High SOC to start playing the bad guy.

So we balance need with BMS and charge management. Problem with all that is it will take 2 years (since one year is not enough to convince anyone of anything) to really provide decent anecdotal evidence.

The big ask; Is it better to charge to 100% during the coolest part of the day (night) even if its not all that cool and then drive it to under 80% first thing in the morning or is it better to fast charge in the middle of the day getting the batteries hotter but driving down that high SOC right away.

Realize the slower charge option means high SOC both coming and going and in the L2 situation, it could be as much as 2 hours because of the speed of the charge. Now you can drive enough to lower the SOC to a less dangerous range in 20-30 mins easy enough.

Wnat would be nice is a comprehensive profile of what an active TMS actually does, when it does what and to what degree it does it. Problem we have is Nissan is only pack that good monitoring programs and yes, the monitoring program is only as good as the instrumentation feeding it and we all know that Nissan instrumentation isn't that good. Of course it wasn't meant for public consumption so it leaves a lot to be desired but at least its something.

Everything else seems to be more user inputted opinions based on something


anecdotal evidence of 1 here. But I noticed the effect temperature had on the battery during the early spring and late fall months with my 2013 leaf. I had set the timer to 8am and 80% and left it that way for years 1 & 2. During those time periods (and sometimes in winter), there would be an almost 20-degree jump in temperature between 6am and 10am. Normally, I would leave with an SOC of 79%, but those months, I'd often see 82-83%, with the most drastic difference being 85% (it was a VERY cold night followed by a very rapid warm up).

So like with everything else, it depends. I think for high-desert/arid region residents, it might be safer to do the middle day fast charging during the cold periods, and then switch to overnight charging during the hot periods. But that's just conjecture on the thought that we don't want the battery charge to exceed 100%.
:: Model 3 LR :: acquired 9 May '18
:: Leaf S30 :: build date: Sep '16 :: purchased: Nov '16
Date - Miles / GIDs:
May '17 - 7300 mi / 363
Feb '18 - 20.5k mi / 333

cmwade77
Posts: 142
Joined: Tue Nov 14, 2017 5:04 pm
Delivery Date: 15 Nov 2017

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Tue Jan 16, 2018 11:09 am

I guess another part of it is I am in a very temperate climate, yes we have our hot days and our cool days, but overall since I live in Long Beach, CA, we don't generally have too many days over 100 or under 60.

EatsShootsandLeafs
Posts: 506
Joined: Fri Aug 24, 2012 10:59 am
Delivery Date: 24 Aug 2012

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:16 am

Evoforce wrote:Anyone who talks of the Leaf winning against a Bolt is delusional with all things considered. The thermal battery management of Bolt far outshines the NO thermal management of Leaf at this time and maybe well into the future. We can only hope that Nissan will fix this for 2019. The loss of value of our Leafs is a glaring reflection of this battery shortcoming. I believe the Bolt will have very good resale value compared to the Leaf until or unless Nissan repairs its battery reputation.
I'm not sure how much consumers care about TMS. I know everyone here could agree that on the whole EV buyers are more educated than the average joe, but still not all would know/care.

I for one agree that the lack of a capable TMS in the leaf is a real concern if buying for the long-term (mostly irrelevant for a lease buy). I've seen some [admittedly somewhat compelling] explanations about why it doesn't have it and maybe doesn't need it, but I'd still like to see one. Other manufacturers, including the preeminent EV entity, seem to think it's necessary.

User avatar
RegGuheert
Posts: 6332
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2012 4:12 am
Delivery Date: 16 Mar 2012
Leaf Number: 5926
Location: Northern VA

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:18 am

Sorry if this was posted previously, but these guys did a nice job comparing and contrasting the new LEAF and the Tesla Model 3:

RegGuheert
2011 Leaf SL Demo vehicle
10K mi. on 041413; 20K mi. (55.7Ah) on 080714; 30K mi. (52.0Ah) on 123015; 40K mi. (49.8Ah) on 020817; 50K mi. (47.2Ah) on 120717; 60K mi. (43.66Ah) on 091918.
Enphase Inverter Measured MTBF: M190, M215, M250, S280

User avatar
evnow
Moderator
Posts: 11450
Joined: Thu Apr 22, 2010 11:41 am
Delivery Date: 25 Feb 2011
Leaf Number: 303
Location: Seattle, WA

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 9:58 am

I don't care whether a laptop has a GPU with fan or not. Same way I shouldn't have to care about the TMS - just longevity of the battery. At this point ball is in Nissan's court to prove the batteries are good after a few years in reasonably warm places like Florida. Until then, I'd suggest that everyone lease.
1st Leaf : 2/28/2011 to 5/6/2013
2nd Leaf : 5/4/2013 to 3/21/2017
Volt : 3/25/2017 to 5/25/2018
Model 3 : 5/10/2018 to ?

SageBrush
Posts: 2922
Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: Why the LEAF Gen 2 and not the 220 miles Tesla Model 3?

Mon Jan 22, 2018 10:33 am

I made a comparison table, though some data is incomplete.
The LEAF SL and SV have the stand-out value of TACC, but in most other respects the base Tesla Model 3 either matches or trounces the high end LEAF.

Image
Last edited by SageBrush on Wed Jan 24, 2018 4:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

Return to “LEAF Gen 2 & Infiniti EV”