cwerdna
Well-known member
There's an ep of Nova airing on 1/31 on Solar Impulse. See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/the-impossible-flight.html. My TiVo's set to record it.
Thanks! I have it scheduled also.cwerdna said:There's an ep of Nova airing on 1/31 on Solar Impulse. See http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/tech/the-impossible-flight.html. My TiVo's set to record it.
Absolutely:LeftieBiker said:Drones that can remain aloft for months definitely have practical applications.
See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=19346&start=10#p466269GRA said:We already know what PV-battery planes are good for, HALE missions where speed is irrelevant.
GRA said:Absolutely:LeftieBiker said:Drones that can remain aloft for months definitely have practical applications.See http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=19346&start=10#p466269GRA said:We already know what PV-battery planes are good for, HALE missions where speed is irrelevant.
for much else re the difference between practical value and stunt re. transatlantic flights.
Another good quote (and prediction) from Piccard while looking at old airliners in an aircraft graveyard:Bertrand Piccard at 8:18 said:It is so much more difficult to use these clean technologies in the air than to use them on the ground, so if it works in the air I really hope people will understand that they can replace all these old polluting old stuff by new clean technologies. What we can do in the air we can do on the ground. And this is our message.
While I'm not sure how many years it will take, I believe his prediction is accurate. I doubt it will take as long as twenty years (from whenever he said that), but perhaps it will be a bit longer than ten. As always, time will tell.Bertrand Piccard at 1:31:03 said:I'm not saying Solar Impulse will replace an airplane like that very soon. In ten years' time, we have airplanes flying electric with batteries, plugged in the grid before takeoff, and they will transport fifty people.
I'm saying that there is nothing in this flight that couldn't have been learned by flying unmanned HALE a/c which are already performing the exact sorts of missions for which they are suited. The only thing this flight told us is that massive increases in the power densities of PV cells and the energy densities of batteries will be required before this becomes a viable form of transportation, and anybody could have told us that without ever flying an a/c. At least the Spirit of St. Louis was designed for several G while fully loaded, so it could handle some degree of rough weather. I believe the only thing this flight showed was how to get sponsorship to achieve a personal goal, but that's hardly new - adventure explorers have been doing that for more than a century, although in the past they generally had the good taste not to plaster their sponsor's logos all over their clothing and equipment, but just mentioned them in the book or film credits. If you watched the show, you know that the decision to take off for Hawaii was made against the unanimous advice of the engineers, who said it wasn't worth the risk. That the pilot decided to do so anyway shows that this was about personal goals and not disappointing sponsors rather than gathering technical information, not that there was ever much doubt about that.quote="GetOffYourGas"]Are you implying that there is nothing they could learn which could be applied to unmanned electric aircraft? Because I suspect there is. Sure, we won't see this exact use case in real life, but it's far more engaging to follow a manned flight around the world than to simply watch a drone fly itself. This allows for sponsorship and the like, funding this extended test.
The show mentioned that the reason the batteries overheated was that they had too much insulation for the cold at high altitudes, and no way to vent excess heat during the climb at low altitudes. The solution was to add pilot-operated vents to the batteries to allow this excess temperature to be removed, which sounds rather like proving that a current battery pack which must operate in a variety of conditions should have a Thermal Management System!TomT said:Must have been designed by Nissan! :lol:RegGuheert said:It seems that during the successful 5-day flight from Nagoya, Japan, to Oahu, Hawaii, the batteries overheated and will need to all be replaced before the RTW trip can continue. As a result, the Solar Impulse 2 will remain in Hawaii until next Spring.
According to this article, the cooling system was insufficient to keep the batteries cool in the high temperatures they experienced during the daily ascent they made to get above the cloud cover to permit the photovoltaic panels to receive the most energy from the Sun.
I don't agree with what was portrayed as perhaps the "main meaning" of this adventure, but I hardly see it as "a meaningless stunt".GRA said:I watched it, and all through I just kept thinking, what a tremendous expenditure of human energy, brainpower and money for a meaningless stunt.
Bertrand Piccard conceived of this flight in 1999. No doubt he fully intended to complete this flight in, or before, 2005. I'm pretty sure he did not expect it would take 16 years and countless millions of Euros before the around-the-world flight could be started.GRA said:The attempted justifications to try and provide some larger context (We're popularizing sustainable energy and energy efficiency!) struck me as as at least a decade too late - If this flight had started in 2005 instead of 2015 that might have been valid, but RE and energy efficiency were both widespread and well known by the time this came about.
I did watch the show and that is NOT what happened. What ACTUALLY happened is Pierre took off for Hawaii with the full blessing of the engineering team. After some time, he reported a malfunction with the system which monitors the autopilot and alerts the pilot if it determines his attention is needed. This malfunction threatened to (and proved to) put additional stress on a pilot who was already attempting to extend a human endurance record by a large margin (over 5 days of continuous flying versus 3 days). The engineers, who have responsibility for the safety of both the pilot and the aircraft, felt that this added additional risk was not warranted and they recommended that Pierre turn around and return to Japan before he reached the limit of an abort. Pierre and Bertrand overrode their recommendation and decided to push on to Hawaii. This created a significant amount of friction within the team and Bertrand fully expected some of them to quit even if they reached Hawaii safely. NOVA did an admirable job of capturing this very human drama.GRA said:If you watched the show, you know that the decision to take off for Hawaii was made against the unanimous advice of the engineers, who said it wasn't worth the risk.
You went on to imply that this had become a "daredevil stunt". I have to agree with you that achieving the goal of flying this plane around the world was very much at the forefront of the decision to push on, but while it was originally a personal goal of only Bertrand Piccard, it had also become a corporate goal of ALL of the people involved in the effort as well as of the financial sponsors and many other supporters.GRA said:That the pilot decided to do so anyway shows that this was about personal goals and not disappointing sponsors rather than gathering technical information, not that there was ever much doubt about that.
Of course it wasn't possible in 2005, and as you note it was barely possible in 2015-16. The main justification for both pilots was to achieve a first, and while that's good for getting into the record books and makes the sponsors happy, it often (as in this case) has nothing to do with technical development for practical usage. Firsts/records are something that runs in Piccard's family, as both his father Jacques (first along with Don Walsh in the bathyscaphe Trieste to the bottom of the Challenger Deep of the Marianas Trench, the deepest known point in the ocean) and grandfather Auguste (set and then broke his own absolute height record, in 1931 and 1932, in balloons with two different companions) did them, and Bertrand along with Brian Jones were the first to make a non-stop balloon circumnavigation. At least in Auguste's case they were expanding scientific knowledge, and there was some minimal information gained by the Trieste. I can't say the same for this flight.RegGuheert said:I don't agree with what was portrayed as perhaps the "main meaning" of this adventure, but I hardly see it as "a meaningless stunt".GRA said:I watched it, and all through I just kept thinking, what a tremendous expenditure of human energy, brainpower and money for a meaningless stunt.Bertrand Piccard conceived of this flight in 1999. No doubt he fully intended to complete this flight in, or before, 2005. I'm pretty sure he did not expect it would take 16 years and countless millions of Euros before the around-the-world flight could be started.GRA said:The attempted justifications to try and provide some larger context (We're popularizing sustainable energy and energy efficiency!) struck me as as at least a decade too late - If this flight had started in 2005 instead of 2015 that might have been valid, but RE and energy efficiency were both widespread and well known by the time this came about.
My family and I went to see the Solar Impulse several years back. That Solar Impulse plane that we saw at the Udvar-Hazy Museum was not this one which flew around the world, it was a prototype. In other words, that one was not quite able to achieve the final objective.
My conclusion from all of this is that this flight was not really possible before 2015. It's clear from what was portrayed in the NOVA documentary that it was barely achievable as it was. I believe that this type of "first" is important because when we look back on history, we can say with some confidence that such a feat was likely NOT possible using the technology which existed up until approximately that point in time.
Yes, you're right about the sequence. Thanks for correcting my memory.RegGuheert said:I did watch the show and that is NOT what happened. What ACTUALLY happened is Pierre took off for Hawaii with the full blessing of the engineering team. After some time, he reported a malfunction with the system which monitors the autopilot and alerts the pilot if it determines his attention is needed. This malfunction threatened to (and proved to) put additional stress on a pilot who was already attempting to extend a human endurance record by a large margin (over 5 days of continuous flying versus 3 days). The engineers, who have responsibility for the safety of both the pilot and the aircraft, felt that this added additional risk was not warranted and they recommended that Pierre turn around and return to Japan before he reached the limit of an abort. Pierre and Bertrand overrode their recommendation and decided to push on to Hawaii. This created a significant amount of friction within the team and Bertrand fully expected some of them to quit even if they reached Hawaii safely. NOVA did an admirable job of capturing this very human drama.GRA said:If you watched the show, you know that the decision to take off for Hawaii was made against the unanimous advice of the engineers, who said it wasn't worth the risk.
All of which just goes to show that personal and PR motivations drove this, not technical development. Sure, Piccard and Pierre chose to risk their lives, but as there's absolutely no need to do so in this case to gather technical data, it's clear that the driving force was personal (ego if you will) rather than scientific. Nothing wrong with that, as lots of people try and test their own limits, but it's not science. There were a couple of moments in the film that I thought accurately showed the adventurer/explorer as hero idea. One was when Piccard was having stomach problems and wanted to take off anyway, Pierre took him aside and out of hearing I imagine told him not to be an idiot - aside from every other reason not to do this, the last thing you want when flying in an unpressurized a/c over 25kft is gastric issues.RegGuheert said:Your characterization of this decision is:You went on to imply that this had become a "daredevil stunt". I have to agree with you that achieving the goal of flying this plane around the world was very much at the forefront of the decision to push on, but while it was originally a personal goal of only Bertrand Piccard, it had also become a corporate goal of ALL of the people involved in the effort as well as of the financial sponsors and many other supporters.GRA said:That the pilot decided to do so anyway shows that this was about personal goals and not disappointing sponsors rather than gathering technical information, not that there was ever much doubt about that.
What you failed to point out were the following very pertinent facts:
- Pierre had previously aborted this flight after taking off due to adverse weather conditions, resulting in the plane being in Japan instead of China.
- The flight had been aborted again on the runway while trying to take off from Japan, again based on weather.
- As a result of these two aborts, the window was rapidly closing on successfully achieving this five-plus-day flight to Hawaii. The main reasons for this were 1) the Summer solstice had passed and thus the available solar energy for the flight was being reduced each day. There was very little energy margin, even right at the solstice, 2) The typhoon season was quickly approaching, which not only threatened to prevent the flight, but could actually destroy the blow-up hangar and the plane itself, and 3) The team was starting to suffer from severe fatigue from the waiting and the three periods of intense preparation (and worrying) for this most-difficult flight which they had just gone through.
- Bertrand felt that if this flight was aborted, the entire mission would fail.
So did they make the wrong decision? Hindsight tells us that the flight to Hawaii was a success. Pierre was certainly more harassed by the autopilot monitor than he should have been, but he did an amazing job piloting the plane and pulled through to achieve an incredible world-record feat of endurance. The batteries failed during that flight and the rest of the mission had to be pushed back until 2016, but that design issue was already baked in and was not part of the go/no go decision. And, yes, the engineers were pissed off that their recommendation had been overruled by "two managers". In the end, however, none of them quit.
I have to say I feel that Bertrand and Pierre made the correct decision. Note that those two people who made that decision were the person whose life was on the line and the person whose personal reputation was most on the line. They personally had the most to lose in case of a failure. Ultimately, the entire team would have been MUCH more upset had they aborted and had the entire mission been scrubbed.
Data could just have easily been collected flying over land, or out and back over the ocean. It was the need to be seen as the adventurer as hero that made it necessary to fly over the Pacific. After all, can you name the pilots who prior to Lindbergh flying non-stop to Paris had previously flown a non-stop distance and endurance more than sufficient to make the flight ( in the a/c Lindbergh had tried to buy for the fligh)t, but did so while flying back and forth over Long Island? I mentioned them in my post a page or two back, but I'll repeat their names: Clarence Chamberlain and Bert Acosta. How about the names of the first pilots to fly across the U.S. non-stop (in 1924), a greater distance than that from Newfoundland to Ireland? Or how about the names of the designers of the WB-2 and the Spirit of St. Louis; can you tell me either without checking the wiki? The main reason why flying across a large body of water engages the public's mind is because of the perceived (and in many cases actual) greater danger to humans, and their willingness to risk it. Can you name the first trans-oceanic flight by a drone, without looking it up?RegGuheert said:As far as collecting data goes, the data which was yet to be collected was the data which could ONLY be gathered on this leg of the mission. They needed to find out if the plane could store enough potential and battery energy to make it through the night over the Pacific, and to do this over and over again each day for five days. They also needed to find out if Pierre could manage to fly the plane for five days. The ONLY way to collect that data was to actually DO it. It turned out that Pierre WAS able to succeed even with an additional hurdle put in his way. OTOH, it also turned out that the thermal design of the batteries was insufficient for the purpose.
Right, a personal adventure/test driven largely by sponsorship concerns.RegGuheert said:Ultimately, it was bad enough that this around-the-world series of flights stretched into a second year. In my mind, that was a bit of a failure. But had they balked at attempting that longest leg in 2015, the effort possibly would have either dissolved at that point or the adventure would have stretched into the third year, with no improvement in the possibility of success, but a greatly increased probability of failure due to a loss of funding.
Much as I watched the flights, the whole manned moon program was largely an exercise in the astronaut as mythic hero - the public had far less interest in the 20 or so previous unmanned flights which had reached the moon and orbited, crashed into or landed on it, and which did the science. While lots of people watched Spirit and Opportunity rovers on Mars, is there any doubt that public interest will be far greater when we send humans there?RegGuheert said:I appreciated that NOVA did an excellent job of showing how challenging this task really was. I appreciate this documentary in the same way that I appreciate the HBO documentary series "From the Earth to the Moon" that brought that same kind of information to light about the Mercury, Gemini, and Apollo missions. Ultimately, there are a LOT more challenges in such an undertaking than you can appreciate by just watching it unfold on TV or on the internet. The difference with the NOVA documentary is that they recorded the events as they happened, so likely it was more accurate than the HBO dramatizations.
Sure, "data" could have been collected in that way, it just would not have been useful to improve the chances of a success over that leg of the flight. Here's why:GRA said:Data could just have easily been collected flying over land, or out and back over the ocean.RegGuheert said:As far as collecting data goes, the data which was yet to be collected was the data which could ONLY be gathered on this leg of the mission. They needed to find out if the plane could store enough potential and battery energy to make it through the night over the Pacific, and to do this over and over again each day for five days. They also needed to find out if Pierre could manage to fly the plane for five days. The ONLY way to collect that data was to actually DO it. It turned out that Pierre WAS able to succeed even with an additional hurdle put in his way. OTOH, it also turned out that the thermal design of the batteries was insufficient for the purpose.
All of the above is correct, and makes my essential point. An a/c that can only fly downwind owing to limited speed and range and with accurate multi-day forecasts of ideal weather owing to limited strength isn't much practical use. At the current stage of development, there is no chance of this being a practical means of transportation, because the a/c is simply too limited by strength, endurance and speed to develop further. All of this could be calculated on the ground.RegGuheert said:Sure, "data" could have been collected in that way, it just would not have been useful to improve the chances of a success over that leg of the flight. Here's why:GRA said:Data could just have easily been collected flying over land, or out and back over the ocean.RegGuheert said:As far as collecting data goes, the data which was yet to be collected was the data which could ONLY be gathered on this leg of the mission. They needed to find out if the plane could store enough potential and battery energy to make it through the night over the Pacific, and to do this over and over again each day for five days. They also needed to find out if Pierre could manage to fly the plane for five days. The ONLY way to collect that data was to actually DO it. It turned out that Pierre WAS able to succeed even with an additional hurdle put in his way. OTOH, it also turned out that the thermal design of the batteries was insufficient for the purpose.
- The Solar Impulse 2 was solar-powered which has a very low airspeed and did not have sufficient energy storage in the battery to fly through a 12-hour night at the equator at a constant altitude. So how did it manage to fly halfway across the Pacific Ocean, then? They did two things that made that flight possible: 1) They stored some of the energy needed for flying overnight as potential energy rather than in the batteries, and 2) They flew from West to East, thus shortening the duration of nighttime by about 25 minutes. Part of this shortening was the direct result of the tailwinds that occur when traveling in that direction and part of it was due to the direction of rotation of the Earth. While 1) could be done anywhere, 2) required flying about 65 degrees around the globe in the direction from West to East over five or more 24-hour days.
As such, flying "out and back over the ocean" likely would have simply been impossible because of these constraints. Imagine flying "out" "over the ocean" in an easterly direction through an entire night. How would you get "back"? First of all, flying in a westerly direction is not even possible above a certain windspeed. And unless the windspeed is less than 1/3 of the airspeed of the Solar Impulse 2, then it will not be possible to get back to land before the next night. Perhaps very still conditions exist sometimes around the solstice in the equatorial Pacific or Atlantic, but it is likely rare given that is when the sun has the most impact on winds over the equator.
- Flying over land provides a strong incentive to abort while flying over water provides a strong incentive to press on. Sure, they possibly could have tried to fly for five days in an easterly direction over Asia, but, guess what?, they likely would have aborted as soon as there was the problem occurred. Why? Because it is so easy to do. And if that problem hadn't aborted the flight something else likely would have. There is nothing like the INABILITY to abort that keeps long-duration missions going.
- Because of the low solar margins, the period of time during which the flight between Japan and Hawaii is possible is a couple-month window centered around the Summer solstice. It makes no sense to use that time continuing to test the platform when they could simply make the actual flight instead.
- Finally, no amount of collecting flight data would have solved the biggest problem that they faced on that leg of the trip: the inability to predict the weather five days in advance. Only by having a plane with a higher windspeed could they have resolved that problem. That could push such a flight a decade or more into the future. Simply put, the weather is one risk which simply could not be retired for that leg of the flight.
In the end, they did the best thing they could have done: they pressed on and achieved what the the Solar Impulse 2 was designed to accomplish.
As you know, we agree on that point:GRA said:All of the above is correct, and makes my essential point. An a/c that can only fly downwind owing to limited speed and range and with accurate multi-day forecasts of ideal weather owing to limited strength isn't much practical use. At the current stage of development, there is no chance of this being a practical means of transportation, because the a/c is simply too limited by strength, endurance and speed to develop further. All of this could be calculated on the ground.
RegGuheert on July 24 said:While I find that some of the flight-endurance records set were impressive, I don't feel this was a very positive demonstration of the many benefits of Solar power. Simply put, Solar-powered flight may have some interesting applications in reconnaissance or as telecommunications relays, but I doubt that it will ever make much sense for transporting people or cargo around the globe. Of course, time will tell.
It was my understanding that we agreed that this was a poor use of PV/Solar. Where we differed, AIUI, is that you were saying that you thought it had enough other scientific benefits to give it broader value, and I don't see it as anything other than a personal accomplishment. I've always liked the title of the French mountaineer Lionel Terray's climbing autobiography: "Conquistadors of the Useless". There's an acknowledgement that he was climbing for his own reasons, for enjoyment, as a personal test and maybe some fame, with no wider meaning or value, albeit some new technical knowledge was gained. I consider this flight to fall into the same category, as I do Lindbergh's or Post's, or Rutan/Yeager's.RegGuheert said:As you know, we agree on that point:GRA said:All of the above is correct, and makes my essential point. An a/c that can only fly downwind owing to limited speed and range and with accurate multi-day forecasts of ideal weather owing to limited strength isn't much practical use. At the current stage of development, there is no chance of this being a practical means of transportation, because the a/c is simply too limited by strength, endurance and speed to develop further. All of this could be calculated on the ground.RegGuheert on July 24 said:While I find that some of the flight-endurance records set were impressive, I don't feel this was a very positive demonstration of the many benefits of Solar power. Simply put, Solar-powered flight may have some interesting applications in reconnaissance or as telecommunications relays, but I doubt that it will ever make much sense for transporting people or cargo around the globe. Of course, time will tell.
No, I never said that. Here is what I actually said:GRA said:Where we differed, AIUI, is that you were saying that you thought it had enough other scientific benefits to give it broader value, and I don't see it as anything other than a personal accomplishment.
I also said this:RegGuheert said:I don't agree with what was portrayed as perhaps the "main meaning" of this adventure, but I hardly see it as "a meaningless stunt".
In other words, it is not about creating "scientific benefits" but rather it is about putting a stake in the ground to say "the technology of today now allows us to do this!" And this was done in a way that history has recorded the event.RegGuheert said:I believe that this type of "first" is important because when we look back on history, we can say with some confidence that such a feat was likely NOT possible using the technology which existed up until approximately that point in time.
I agree that it is good to capture this type of information in books,, but I'm not as big of a book reader as you. I can certainly agree with the last part of that statement!GRA said:That being said, I hope a book will eventually come out which goes into far more detail about the design of both a/c, technical limitations, meteorology, physiology etc. of the flight, which is far more useful from the science perspective (which is what Nova is supposed to be) than making an in-flight phone call to Ban Ki-Moon.
Reg, let me say that I agree that pushing the envelope as above can be valuable, but in this sort of thing, it's the scientific and technical problems that arise during the design and development stages, and the work which resolves them, that provide the value; the flight itself is just the culmination of all that. After all, most knowledge is gained by the errors and mistakes made along the way.RegGuheert said:No, I never said that. Here is what I actually said:GRA said:Where we differed, AIUI, is that you were saying that you thought it had enough other scientific benefits to give it broader value, and I don't see it as anything other than a personal accomplishment.I also said this:RegGuheert said:I don't agree with what was portrayed as perhaps the "main meaning" of this adventure, but I hardly see it as "a meaningless stunt".In other words, it is not about creating "scientific benefits" but rather it is about putting a stake in the ground to say "the technology of today now allows us to do this!" And this was done in a way that history has recorded the event.RegGuheert said:I believe that this type of "first" is important because when we look back on history, we can say with some confidence that such a feat was likely NOT possible using the technology which existed up until approximately that point in time.
But make no mistake: by working on projects that push the envelope of what is achievable, new insights are gained. To me, this is axiomatic. Trying to do something that is impossible always leads to new ideas about how something can be approached, even if it ultimately leads to failure. In my career, I spent about the same period of time as Bertrand Piccard (about 16 years) trying to do something that was impossible. In the end, I achieved success in the endeavor. Just like Bertrand Piccard, I didn't know what I didn't know and it took MUCH longer to achieve the goal than I had ever imagined. Also just like Bertrand Piccard, what was achieved was barely possible with the technology of the time. The technology I used was different technology than what I had started with, but ultimately, I was able to do something that had never been done before. Not by myself, but as part of a team with a common goal. Part of the reason it was a common goal is that I often "sold" the goal to the team as something worth pursuing.
Along the way, I pushed myself and many others to grow the technology needed to accomplish the goal. I have to say that several of the people whom I was pushing told me that they didn't mind the seemingly-endless stream of problems which I encountered and brought to them because they enjoyed difficult challenges. These challenges stretched the limits of math, computer science, and computer hardware. Later, one of those who created much of the technology that I used admitted to me that he didn't think it was possible to do what I had done. (Which is really funny because I used his math and his algorithms and his software to do it!) Many of the key components in these three areas simply did not exist when I began the journey in 1990. What was accomplished truly had been "impossible" at that time.I agree that it is good to capture this type of information in books,, but I'm not as big of a book reader as you. I can certainly agree with the last part of that statement!GRA said:That being said, I hope a book will eventually come out which goes into far more detail about the design of both a/c, technical limitations, meteorology, physiology etc. of the flight, which is far more useful from the science perspective (which is what Nova is supposed to be) than making an in-flight phone call to Ban Ki-Moon.
Ultimately, I'm glad that NOVA allowed me to "go along on the ride" with the Solar Impulse team to get a better feel for what was involved in their incredible feat.
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