Tesla Semi Truck

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
RegGuheert said:
Here's the link to the hydrogen entry in this market: Nikola.

I suppose this company is for those investors and customer who are not good at math. They offer to lease a truck for $5000.00/month ALL-IN. Truck, fuel, maintenance, everything. And you get a new truck every seven years. That's to replace a diesel truck that consumes $10,000/month just in fuel.

Since I have calculated the COST of producing H2 fuel from hydrolysis to be about $10/kg, we'll use that round number as a starting point for this calculation. Nikola expects each truck to consume 50 to 75 kg of H2 each day. So how much does it COST Nikola to provide fuel for each truck for one month? 75 kg/day * 10 $/kg * 30 days/month = $22,500.00/month.

:lol: :lol: :lol: I'm sorry, but even if you manage to find that I'm off by a factor of FOUR the fuel will STILL cost more than they are taking in for the lease of the truck. If I am off by a factor of EIGHT, then that leaves $2200 per month to pay for building a new truck every seven years, pay for maintenance and provide profits to investors. Does anyone REALLY think that H2 fuel can be made from water for less than the price of diesel fuel?

It's a pretty website, but I have to conclude that it is an elaborate joke.
Reg, while I realize you started this thread and thus can put anything you want in it, wouldn't the two preceding posts be more appropriate in the "AFV Truck/Commercial Vehicle and (non-BEV) Bus thread," which I started per your request so as not to clutter up the BEV Bus thread with non-BEV bus related posts? Both the Thor and Nikola have been covered in that topic already, so unless/until we start dedicated threads for each of them (as you did here for the Tesla Semi), that seems to be the most appropriate gathering place for such posts.
 
Back on topic, via IEVS:
Exploring The “Hows” And “Cans” Of The Tesla Semi – Part 1
https://insideevs.com/exclusive-part-1-exploring-hows-cans-tesla-semi/

The Tesla Semi. Opinions are many but facts (beyond those stated at the November reveal) are few. Skepticism reigns. Among the new facts, we finally have some anecdotal test evidence stating:

  • “XPO management confirmed that in their testing, the features and capabilities of the truck mostly lived up to Tesla’s claims at the launch event, including the performance vs. diesel trucks up a 5% grade (55 mph vs 45 mph), recharging time, safety/anti jackknifing features and payload (similar to a typical diesel truck, as confirmed by Tesla).”However, Jonas (Adam Jonas w/ Morgan-Stanley) noted that XPO wasn’t able to confirm the most critical figure of all: the Semi’s 500-mile range.”

Even with this test evidence partially confirming that the semi “mostly lives up” to claims, skeptics may ask HOW Tesla can:

provide such powerful performance
AND carry a “full” Class 8 payload AND be under the 80,000 lb tractor-trailer weight limit
AND make 500-mile range
AND sell it for about $180,000?

This article is the first of a four-part series to explore these “Hows” and “Cans” of the Tesla semi. . . .

Separately, at a quarterly conference call, Elon said the semi uses many Model 3 parts in the propulsion system, including the four driver-axle motors. We assume long-range Model 3 motors with 271 HP & 307 ft-lbs torque each (motor performance per Motor Trends instrumented test results).

Additional analytical nugget: Kman Auto showed us, in a video from the reveal, the nameplates of the drive unit reduction gearboxes, revealing that the front set of drive units are geared 23:1 (for low-speed acceleration) and the rears at 15:1 (for high-speed efficiency). When all four are operating, these drivers “blend” to create an effective 19:1 gear ratio for torque/acceleration calculations. . . .

Conclusions:

Performance. Confirmed. Both XPO Logistic’s tests and our calculations demonstrate the Tesla Semi CAN deliver Tesla’s claimed acceleration and climbing performance with the specified propulsion system. The skeptics should strike that item off their list. The performance simply reflects the true power of electric propulsion systems.

Payload capacity. “Qualified” confirmed. XPO said (the semi) “mostly lived up to Tesla’s claims… and payload (similar to a typical diesel truck, as confirmed by Tesla).” “Mostly” and “similar to a typical” don’t count as firm confirmations in our book. This requires some additional analysis.

Range. “Qualified” confirmed. Our calculations jibe with other analysts’ estimates for battery size and range. But XPO did not mention anything about range in their statement. This is disturbing as EV range is THE key metric most trucking firms would test first. This leaves us speculating about the tested-prototype tractor’s installed battery pack size and tractor weight – was the prototype they tested outfitted with a full-500-mile-range battery or the smaller 300-mile battery? If the smaller battery, can Tesla actually build a 500-mile range semi-tractor weighing less than 20,000 lb. that hauls a “standard” 45,500 lb payload + 15,000 lb trailer? Is Tesla using Model 3 battery technology for the pack or will it require something new that Tesla has not yet revealed?

To help resolve these questions on tractor weight and range – In Part 2, George will deep-dive into Tesla’s Model S/Model 3 battery pack construction and known data about the semi’s pack to find clues of the Semi’s pack architecture and resulting weight and volume.
I wonder if the 55 vs. 45 mph 5% grade noted in the article is a typo or not, as Tesla claimed 65 mph/5% grade at the intro, and that's repeated in a chart as well as "confirmed" by a model. That is the most useful performance benefit for the Tesla over a diesel, so it's fairly important which is correct.

Meanwhile, an IEVS article indicates the level of skepticism and need for testing:
Tesla Semi Orders Continue To Climb Despite Press Skepticism
https://insideevs.com/tesla-semi-orders-climb-despite-press-skepticism/

. . . UPS said it provided Tesla with data about its truck routes in order to evaluate how the vehicle will perform in its fleet. “As with any introductory technology for our fleet, we want to make sure it’s in a position to succeed,” UPS exec Scott Phillippi told Reuters, adding that most of the initial 125 trucks would be deployed in the US and that Tesla will provide consultation and support on charging infrastructure. “We have high expectations and are very optimistic that this will be a good product and it will have firm support from Tesla to make it work. . . .”

The Tesla Semi isn’t for everyone. “We met with Tesla and at this time we do not see a fit with their product and our fleet,” said Dave Bates, Senior VP of Old Dominion Freight Line, the fourth-largest carrier in the US. . . .
 
AndyH said:
GRA said:
- it should be used for distribution and delivery, for which it is well suited.
One might have thought the day cab gave that away, but whatever. ;)

I take a break for a couple of years and find MNL exactly how I left it. Impressive! :lol:

AndyH is back?

Can’t wait to hear you latest on the hydrogen takeover, and how ill suited EVs are.
 
GRA said:
Exploring The “Hows” And “Cans” Of The Tesla Semi – Part 1
https://insideevs.com/exclusive-part-1-exploring-hows-cans-tesla-semi/

...
Additional analytical nugget: Kman Auto showed us, in a video from the reveal, the nameplates of the drive unit reduction gearboxes, revealing that the front set of drive units are geared 23:1 (for low-speed acceleration) and the rears at 15:1 (for high-speed efficiency). When all four are operating, these drivers “blend” to create an effective 19:1 gear ratio for torque/acceleration calculations. . . .
O.K. That is a very clever idea! It goes to show the type of innovation that arises when you are actively working on a problem.
 
Via IEVS, Part 2:
Tesla Semi Truck Battery Probably Lighter Than You Think – Part 2
https://insideevs.com/tesla-semi-truck-battery-lighter/
George Bower is comparing it to the P100D pack, but ISTM he should be using the densities of the Model 3's cells. Per Tesla, the Model 3 pack's specific energy is 150Wh/kg, which gives about 14,700 lb. for a 1MWh pack (vs. George's calcs of 9,549 lb. for 900 kWh), not counting the reductions for voltage and area scaling George describes in the article.
 
GRA said:
Via IEVS, Part 2:
Tesla Semi Truck Battery Probably Lighter Than You Think – Part 2
https://insideevs.com/tesla-semi-truck-battery-lighter/George Bower is comparing it to the P100D pack, but ISTM he should be using the densities of the Model 3's cells. Per Tesla, the Model 3 pack's specific energy is 150Wh/kg, which gives about 14,700 lb. for a 1MWh pack (vs. George's calcs of 9,549 lb. for 900 kWh), not counting the reductions for voltage and area scaling George describes in the article.
Tesla will certainly achieve a pack density of more than the 150 Wh/kg in the truck, but I doubt that they will exceed 200 Wh/kg like George Bower calculates because of the 30-minute charging time requirements. I'll put my bet on 180 Wh/kg, which comes to 12,222 lbs. for a 1 MWh pack.

IMO what COULD boost the truck above 200 Wh/kg would be a breakthrough in NMC electrolyte by Dr. Dahn that would allow the 2170 cells to be operated at a higher voltage. I think that improvement could come at any time, and perhaps could happen in small steps allowing a gradual increase in maximum voltage. Tesla should be planning for that eventuality. They will either need to increase the voltage range of their charging and discharging electronics to accommodate the higher cell voltages OR they will need to plan to reconfigure their cell packing. What they will NOT want to do in the truck is reduce the total number of cells, since they will need to keep adding capacity until they can get the range up to at least 800 miles.
 
Nikola claims that a standard diesel truck weighs 19,000 to 23,000 lbs. while they will come in at 18,000 lbs. to 21,000, thus saving weight. Looking around, it appears their data may be a bit out-of-date. Some modern trucks are coming in at 17,000 lbs, full, so Nikola may actually be coming in at par or perhaps even a bit heavy.

Since I doubt Tesla can build the cab-sans-battery to weigh only 5000 lbs., they will either come in a bit heavy or will need to limit their maximum battery capacity to 900 kWh or lower for this first go-around.

Weight is the one thing Tesla is not talking about on their Semi website, so I will assume that is the toughest spec.

Of course the range will improve as the batteries improve.
 
Let's look at range and fuel economy for a conventional truck compared with the Tesla Semi.

The DOE requires new trucks to achieve at least 7.2 MPG on level ground while some companies have demonstrated economy as high as 9.9 MPG with a 65,000-lb. load. If we go with the 7.2 MPG number and put diesel fuel at $3.00/gallon, we get a per-mile fuel cost of about $0.42/mile. Tesla has promised truck fuel for $0.07/kWh and efficiency better than 2 kWh/mile. That comes to about $0.12/mile, or a savings of $0.30/mile! (I will note here that Elon Musk said "wholesale price" in his presentation, so I'm not exactly sure what that means.)

That's a huge savings in fuel costs.

When it comes to autonomy, diesel trucks currently have the clear advantage. At 7.2 MPG with a 325-gallon fuel tank (300 gallons useable), you have a usable range of over 2000 miles. Telsa comes in at 500 miles or only 1/4 that number--probably less in cold or windy conditions. While a 2000-mile autonomy is not necessarily more valuable, than, say, 1000 miles, 500 miles is on the low end of what is needed for some routes. According to Elon Musk, over 80% of all truck routes in the U.S. are less than 250 miles.

You can bet that trucking companies will figure out clever ways to use electric trucks if they are saving $0.30/mile. For instance, you should expect trucking companies to enable charging whenever the truck is loading or unloading. In some cases, that will be possible without unhitching the vehicle from the trailer. The key will be to negotiate low electricity rates and avoid demand and high TOU charges.
 
GRA said:
AndyH said:
GRA said:
And a truck that has to meet a schedule and keep within his/her service hours isn't going to be able to adjust their speed to the extent you did.
I'm intrigued. How much did I adjust my speed, and how do you think your understanding of how I drive can be applied to the Tesla truck? :?
You have stated that you slowed down, well below speeds that line haul trucks typically travel at.
This is incorrect. I stated that I had to consider temperature, HVAC use, and terrain when planning my trips - but only for those that are to or beyond max range - not to the EPA range. This is important! (This is one of the reasons I wish you had at least a year of EVing under your belt because it's difficult to communicate without a common core of experience.)

My last EV was a city car with 68 miles of EPA range. As I reported in the Outl@nder PHEV thread, I find the new EPA profile to be pessimistic even with a fair amount of jack-rabbit starts and plenty of AC running. In my smart, I don't have to think to achieve the EPA range, though it is possible to get close to it. In routine driving, I found it easy to exceed the EPA range by 20% by paying attention, and by more than 40% by hypermiling. I can't say for sure if any of this will carry over to an EV class 8 tractor, but at the very least I expect the EPA range to be as conservative for this category as I've found it to be for diesel cars, an EV, and now a PHEV.

You asked at some point about test cycles pertinent to Class 8 tractors. One of the organizations certified to perform fuel, lube, and economy testing is SouthWest Research Institute here in San Antonio. (Just in case you want to drill-down into SAE test protocols.) The second link is for a couple of the more stringent tests - those outlined by CARB.

https://www.swri.org/heavy-duty-truck-fuel-economy-testing-evaluations
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/hhddt.php

Note that the test used to evaluate 'high speed cruise' has a max speed of 59.3 MPH and an average of 39.9.

hhddt-cruz.png


The ability to climb a hill is a good marketing metric, but it's not that useful in the real world when one is concerned with range/economy. I say this because when I was advising tractor operators, from owner-operators to small fleet operators (10-25 tractors) it was during the period of high diesel prices before our current artificial low. Both categories of operators adapted their operation style to save fuel money. Owner-operators acted the way we EVers act - we slowed down a bit, understanding that drag increases with the square of speed. Fleet operators don't mash the 'go pedal' on their own. If they couldn't entice drivers with a cost share for saved fuel (a nice carrot), they turned the governor down on the tractors until the average speed slowed down enough to bring in the desired fuel savings. Lots of words there - let's shrink them a bit: Class 8 operators already actively manage fuel economy and range using the same techniques used by EVers. The way they fuel will change, and the range will change, but the rest will not.

RegGuheert said:
... According to Elon Musk, over 80% of all truck routes in the U.S. are less than 250 miles.

You can bet that trucking companies will figure out clever ways to use electric trucks if they are saving $0.30/mile.
I agree completely. Currently available EVs will only provide about 90% of consumer's needs. I'm thinking the HD EV tractors will be going after the middle of the bell curve first as they should.

One example is moving mail. When I was a kid, my dad drove mail at night after a full shift at GM. He would drive into the city and pick up a USPS tractor. He'd drive to the post office and grab a trailer. Drive to Detroit and swap trailers. Drive to Lansing, and swap trailers. Return to the point of origin to drop a trailer and return the tractor. The total trip was less than 300 miles.

Dept of Transportation data seems to suggest that someone at Tesl@ might have done their homework.
https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/fr.../docs/13factsfigures/pdfs/fff2013_highres.pdf

truckrange.jpg
 
RegGuheert said:
Since I doubt Tesla can build the cab-sans-battery to weigh only 5000 lbs., they will either come in a bit heavy or will need to limit their maximum battery capacity to 900 kWh or lower for this first go-around.
InsideEVs did a nice job going through the weights and figuring out how the Tesla Semi comes out. Bottom line: It's gonna be a bit heavy, especially if it is up against the 17,000-lb. tractors I mentioned in the previous post. As a result, it won't be able to take the heaviest loads, but it still should offer real per-mile savings hauling what it can.
 
InsideEVs has posted their fourth installment on the Tesla Semi Truck covering costs.

It looks like a good start, but they have Tesla's battery-pack costs coming in at $140/kWh, which puts the total cost above Tesla's asking price. I have to think that Tesla's Li-ion manufacturing costs will fall below $100/kWh by the time of the Tesla Semi's arrival in the market, if not soon afterwards. The InsideEVs article did say something similar:
InsideEVs said:
The 500-mile version will remain in concept-form until battery costs drop to $100/kWh at the pack level.
I don't see things exactly that way. Many mass-produced items are priced based on costs dropping to a reasonable point at some time in the future. Cars and airplanes fit into that category. But I doubt Tesla can afford to subsidized very many Tesla Semis in the same way that Boeing has subsidized ALL of their 787s built and will continue to do so for years to come.
 
RegGuheert said:
InsideEVs has posted their fourth installment on the Tesla Semi Truck covering costs.

It looks like a good start, but they have Tesla's battery-pack costs coming in at $140/kWh, which puts the total cost above Tesla's asking price. I have to think that Tesla's Li-ion manufacturing costs will fall below $100/kWh by the time of the Tesla Semi's arrival in the market, if not soon afterwards. The InsideEVs article did say something similar:
InsideEVs said:
The 500-mile version will remain in concept-form until battery costs drop to $100/kWh at the pack level.
I don't see things exactly that way. Many mass-produced items are priced based on costs dropping to a reasonable point at some time in the future. Cars and airplanes fit into that category. But I doubt Tesla can afford to subsidized very many Tesla Semis in the same way that Boeing has subsidized ALL of their 787s built and will continue to do so for years to come.

So this would be the first loss leader that brings in customers with low start up price only to make the profits on the backend with the charging network?

Its not like Tesla needs to fear 3rd party vendors and their generic charging networks :)
 
RegGuheert said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Its not like Tesla needs to fear 3rd party vendors and their generic charging networks :)
Haven't you heard, Dave? Nikola is giving away free hytrogen to the lessees of their H2 FCV Class 8 Trucks :lol: :lol: :lol:


yeah, so high initial investment? I guess that works for some but the trucking industry has too small a margin.

Elon's long term plan is rather transparent to me. They can build a network for truckers and charge double their cost and still be WAAAAAY under the gasser option. This means immediate savings for the trucking companies along with a very predictable long term cash flow for Tesla.

Australia? Nothing but proof of concept; a bargaining chip.

Most feel that money is Tesla's only obstacle or at least their biggest one. That isn't true. Smart money understands what Elon is trying to do. Tesla's biggest, and unresolved hurdle is the Oil Industry; not something that should be overlooked.

But most of this argument is predicated on Tesla not having the "do all" solution. But the real money in trucking is the last mile of delivery. Add to that; emission free? That is a bargaining chip that insures very decent land, utility and charging network development nearly everywhere but the oil fields of Texas. ;)
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
RegGuheert said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
Its not like Tesla needs to fear 3rd party vendors and their generic charging networks :)
Haven't you heard, Dave? Nikola is giving away free hytrogen to the lessees of their H2 FCV Class 8 Trucks :lol: :lol: :lol:
yeah, so high initial investment?
Yes, but the real kicker is when you figure out the cost to run the electrolyzers for all those trucks! Collect $40M/month from your lessees and PAY $650M/month for electricity to make the fuel for them. Insane!
 
RegGuheert said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
RegGuheert said:
yeah, so high initial investment?
Yes, but the real kicker is when you figure out the cost to run the electrolyzers for all those trucks! Collect $40M/month from your lessees and PAY $650M/month for electricity to make the fuel for them. Insane!

Well, color me not surprised.

Start up aside; in most cases its easy to guesstimate volume savings but it just doesn't work for Hydrogen. The cheapest is renewable electricity but then the overwhelming question becomes why Hydrogen and its still massive additional processing, transportation and storage costs, instead of EVs?

We talk about the inability to store power but Musk's Australia adventure has proven to work out better than most expected PLUS you got a fleet of trucks storing SEVERAL kwh each. That is a lot of nooks and crannies to put stuff.

I know a handful of people in the trucking business and they fall into two categories.

Ones who want to spend more time at home

Ones who want to make more money while on the road.

What Musk is planning covers both those needs. Long haul truckers who do nothing but drop a trailer at a large central processing yard only to pick up another and turn around don't get saddled with the sometimes VERY long delays that happen when they complete the cargo delivery.

A set of drivers doing the last mile, have that long delay but will still be home every night. Right now, I know a guy working for an independent, doing UPS large freight delivery. Its all local and its mostly sitting in traffic idling. Doing this in an EV would be a HUGE benefit TO ME!
 
This is an outstanding move on Tesla's part: Tesla is in talks with electric truck customers to install ‘Megacharger’ stations, report says:
Electrek said:
One of those impressive aspects is the ‘Megacharger’ technology, which Elon Musk claims could add “400 miles of range to a Tesla Semi in 30 minutes.”

Now we learn that the automaker is working with some of its biggest Tesla Semi reservation holders to add Megacharging stations at their facilities.

UPS, PepsiCo, and Anheuser-Busch, who have 265 Tesla Semi trucks on order between them, told Reuters that they have been holding talks with Tesla about installing charging infrastructure at their facilities.
The next step will be to help them get cheap electricity by providing them with solar-power solutions to provide the energy for these charging stations.
 
Here is another article about Tesla discussing MegaCharger installations at end users, this time from InsideEVs. There are a couple of interesting items in there:
InsideEVs said:
Reuters also lists several companies that didn’t pre-order the Semi due to doubts related to charging capabilities, range, price and payload.
Reuters said:
Werner Enterprises Inc, YRC Worldwide Inc, Daseke Inc and Old Dominion Freight Line are among the transport companies holding off pre-orders of the Tesla for now, citing doubts about the Semi’s promised recharge time, range, price and payload capabilities.
I have to conclude that once Tesla upped their reservation fee, it made more sense for some companies to take a wait-and-see position. I doubt it will hurt them in the long run since the early units will likely be overpriced and have some serious growing pains. It also keeps the door open for competitors to be active in this space. I also wonder if some of these companies have been suckered into buying into the fantasy of free hydrogen fuel.

This also caught my eye: a photograph of the MegaCharger port:

Tesla-Semi-Charging-Port-2-350x260.jpg


It looks like they are using the same approach that other vendors have used for some of their cables to keep them flexible: use multiple smaller-gauge wires instead of a single pair of fat ones. Since there are four pairs of contacts, 'm going to go out on a limb and surmise six things here:

1. There is more than one charger supplying power to those wires. Likely there are four chargers, each supplying power to one pair of wires. This simplifies the design of the chargers, increases the economies of scale and prevents any current-sharing issues that would otherwise arise with wires in parallel since the chargers would control the current in the wire that they drive.
2. Each of those pairs of contacts connect to a separate battery in the truck. I will go further and guess that there are four PHYSICALLY separate batteries (not just electrically separate). This has many benefits for Tesla, not the least of which is that any battery failures will not require the replacement of the entire 1 MWh pack. It also allows Tesla to build a higher quantity of lower-weight (they will STILL weigh in at over a ton each!) and lower-cost batteries, thus increasing the economies of scale. Finally, it likely gives the best overal truck-level reliability when there are already four separate electrical drivetrains in place.
3. The batteries will have the capability to share energy between them. This would basically take the form of a set of six bidirectional DC/DC converters connecting each pair of batteries which will act as an active balancing system between those four batteries. These will not need to process full drive-power levels, but rather will be on the order of 10- to 20-kW each. This will allow for the truck to achieve maximum range without the need to maintain a matched set of batteries. It will also allow a battery associated with a failed inverter to share its energy with the other batteries so that the range of the truck will not be affected. Likely, this battery balancer will be a single unit, but with modular power-conversion components inside (just like the SuperChargers). This feature may not be available in the first-generation trucks, but likely will be available as an add-on which should become important as the trucks age.
4. The battery in the Tesla Semi Truck will be 800 VDC or higher. This will allow for higher efficiency in the power converters and in the battery itself. I expect the Tesla Semi Truck's high-power electronics will use SiC semiconductors for all high-power switches (MOSFETS and diodes). This prediction also implies that the inverter that drives the PM motors that come from the Model 3 are not the same inverters used on the Model 3, since the high-voltage switches cost significantly more than those for 400 VDC applications.
5. The cable for the MegaCharger will be water-cooled. In other words, it will be just like those for the SuperChargers, allowing for lower-gauge wires and thus maximum flexibility.
6. The contacts in the MegaCharger are the same as the contacts used in the SuperCharger. Alternatively, they will be the same as those used in some future version of the SuperCharger.
 
Andy, sorry for the delayed reply, I've been sick for several days.
AndyH said:
GRA said:
AndyH said:
I'm intrigued. How much did I adjust my speed, and how do you think your understanding of how I drive can be applied to the Tesla truck? :?
You have stated that you slowed down, well below speeds that line haul trucks typically travel at.
This is incorrect. I stated that I had to consider temperature, HVAC use, and terrain when planning my trips - but only for those that are to or beyond max range - not to the EPA range. This is important! (This is one of the reasons I wish you had at least a year of EVing under your belt because it's difficult to communicate without a common core of experience.)
As stated I know to take all of those into account, but if the car's max. range in ideal conditions is inadequate to my needs, all a year's worth of data would do is give me more precise information on just how much more inadequate it would be in various conditions, which would be a waste of my time.

AndyH said:
My last EV was a city car with 68 miles of EPA range. As I reported in the Outl@nder PHEV thread, I find the new EPA profile to be pessimistic even with a fair amount of jack-rabbit starts and plenty of AC running. In my smart, I don't have to think to achieve the EPA range, though it is possible to get close to it. In routine driving, I found it easy to exceed the EPA range by 20% by paying attention, and by more than 40% by hypermiling. I can't say for sure if any of this will carry over to an EV class 8 tractor, but at the very least I expect the EPA range to be as conservative for this category as I've found it to be for diesel cars, an EV, and now a PHEV.
Yet driving styles vary all over the place, and there are as many people who are unable to achieve EPA range as there are people like you (and me) who know how to exceed it. A company has to allow for the LCD, and something close to worst case conditions.

AndyH said:
You asked at some point about test cycles pertinent to Class 8 tractors. One of the organizations certified to perform fuel, lube, and economy testing is SouthWest Research Institute here in San Antonio. (Just in case you want to drill-down into SAE test protocols.) The second link is for a couple of the more stringent tests - those outlined by CARB.

https://www.swri.org/heavy-duty-truck-fuel-economy-testing-evaluations
https://www.dieselnet.com/standards/cycles/hhddt.php

Note that the test used to evaluate 'high speed cruise' has a max speed of 59.3 MPH and an average of 39.9.

hhddt-cruz.png
Thanks, but those have no bearing on the test cycles currently being used by the EPA for cars, and I'd be willing to bet that Tesla isn't using them either when quoting ranges for the Semi (if they're even using any EPA test); as yet, AFAWK they only have one or maybe two prototypes on the road. Let'd check back when a production Tesla Semi is actually available for testing.

AndyH said:
The ability to climb a hill is a good marketing metric, but it's not that useful in the real world when one is concerned with range/economy.
Written like someone who just did a long drive N-S on I-35 (highest point 1,578 ft. MSL), instead of E-W on I-70 or I-80 crossing the Rockies or Sierra, where the grades are often above 5% and have truck climbing lanes (and runaway ramps in the other direction), e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interstate_80_in_California#/media/File:I-80_altitude_profile.png A BEV semi like the Tesla will be able to stay in the normal right lane instead of over in the truck climbing lane (typical speed -=45 mph) , all the way to Donner Summit (7,227 east or 7,239 ft. west), the Eisenhower tunnel (top 11,158 ft, 6% westbound) on I-70, Cabbage Hill on I-84 east of Pendleton, etc., and then benefit from regen on the way down (the parts with the runaway ramps and signs like this: https://imgur.com/gallery/wUrwF It's no surprise that Tesla is planning to use the BEVs for short hauls from the Bay Area to the Gigafactory (259 miles, net elev. gain of 4,700 ft. or so) and back.

AndyH said:
I say this because when I was advising tractor operators, from owner-operators to small fleet operators (10-25 tractors) it was during the period of high diesel prices before our current artificial low. Both categories of operators adapted their operation style to save fuel money. Owner-operators acted the way we EVers act - we slowed down a bit, understanding that drag increases with the square of speed. Fleet operators don't mash the 'go pedal' on their own. If they couldn't entice drivers with a cost share for saved fuel (a nice carrot), they turned the governor down on the tractors until the average speed slowed down enough to bring in the desired fuel savings. Lots of words there - let's shrink them a bit: Class 8 operators already actively manage fuel economy and range using the same techniques used by EVers. The way they fuel will change, and the range will change, but the rest will not.
Yes, when fuel prices are high there's more incentive to slow down. Back in 2013 I had to drive 200 miles down I-5 (which is about as close as California Interstates come to the unending tedium of the plains states), and as I was early and had time to kill I was curious to see if I could drive 55 in the right lane without being constantly overtaken by semis at a time of high fuel prices (Note, California has a 55 mph speed limit for any vehicle pulling a trailer - rural interstate speed limit is 70). It was quickly apparent that no one was doing 55, so I decided to pace a variety of trucks to see how fast they were cruising; the slowest semi, a contractor hauling U.S. mail and who probably had an electronic log and/or gps telltale was doing 59. The majority of the trucks were cruising at 62-63, there were many in the 66-68 range and the fastest one I clocked was doing 69. A couple of years later when fuel prices were lower I had occasion to do the same trip, and being early again I paced trucks again. Now the slowest one was doing 63, the largest group were cruising at 67-69, and there were plenty over 70. In states without truck speed limits (and/or higher limits than California, which is all the western ones) they used to cruise a lot faster than that, but I have no recent experience so won't make any claims. It was bad enough then to see guys hauling triples at 80 mph!

AndyH said:
RegGuheert said:
... According to Elon Musk, over 80% of all truck routes in the U.S. are less than 250 miles.
You can bet that trucking companies will figure out clever ways to use electric trucks if they are saving $0.30/mile.
I agree completely. Currently available EVs will only provide about 90% of consumer's needs. I'm thinking the HD EV tractors will be going after the middle of the bell curve first as they should.

One example is moving mail. When I was a kid, my dad drove mail at night after a full shift at GM. He would drive into the city and pick up a USPS tractor. He'd drive to the post office and grab a trailer. Drive to Detroit and swap trailers. Drive to Lansing, and swap trailers. Return to the point of origin to drop a trailer and return the tractor. The total trip was less than 300 miles.

Dept of Transportation data seems to suggest that someone at Tesl@ might have done their homework.
https://ops.fhwa.dot.gov/freight/fr.../docs/13factsfigures/pdfs/fff2013_highres.pdf

truckrange.jpg
As many of us have said, there is no reason for Tesla or any company to try and make these trucks do things they're currently ill-suited for (long hauls), when there's so many things they are well suited for: P&D, distribution, shuttles, short hauls (esp. in mountainous areas). The "300 mile" tractors will do the P&D, some shuttles and shorter distribution runs, the "500" mile tractors will handle the longer distribution runs, longer shuttles and short hauls, especially in mountainous areas (Bay Area - Reno, Denver - Grand Junction etc.).
 
RegGuheert said:
Here is another article about Tesla discussing MegaCharger installations at end users, this time from InsideEVs. There are a couple of interesting items in there:
InsideEVs said:
Reuters also lists several companies that didn’t pre-order the Semi due to doubts related to charging capabilities, range, price and payload.
Reuters said:
Werner Enterprises Inc, YRC Worldwide Inc, Daseke Inc and Old Dominion Freight Line are among the transport companies holding off pre-orders of the Tesla for now, citing doubts about the Semi’s promised recharge time, range, price and payload capabilities.
I have to conclude that once Tesla upped their reservation fee, it made more sense for some companies to take a wait-and-see position. I doubt it will hurt them in the long run since the early units will likely be overpriced and have some serious growing pains. It also keeps the door open for competitors to be active in this space. I also wonder if some of these companies have been suckered into buying into the fantasy of free hydrogen fuel.
I worked for both Yellow and Roadway before they merged (they used to swap the #1 and #2 nationwide LTL carrier positions regularly), and I doubt they are buying into anything at this point. IME both companies were tightly run - I could give you a list of the ones that weren't, but they all failed after deregulation (one year in the late '70s I worked as a casual for 13 companies, and of those only YRC is left), look very carefully at the bottom line, and aren't going to take any company's claims at face value without real-world proof. Yellow was one of the first companies to add air dams to the top of their cabs, and then buy aero tractors, so it's not as if they're resistant to new ideas. I had a lot of experience with Yellow (working for Roadway I always felt that they treated everyone as if they were a criminal, so avoided them whenever possible), and the distances between the breakbulks in their hub and spoke system would be mostly too far for the Tesla, at least west of the Mississippi. Maybe things have changed after the merger, but I'd expect that would have caused the closure of overlapping terminals rather than gains.
 
Back
Top