2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

You and I have very different notions of dumb.
Buying a new car when you do not have $1000 to set aside in a fully refundable reservation strikes me as nuts. At least in the US; I gather that buying a used car in Japan is a different set of numbers. Which is perhaps all the more reason why your post comparing LEAF cost in Japan to Model 3 cost in the US is silly.

There is a funny irony going on here. While the total deliveries of the '18 LEAF in the US is so far as I know ZERO, and a firm date for the start of deliveries is hard to come by, we all expect at least some deliveries somewhere in the next month. And we all presume that a LEAF ordered today will be available before a Tesla reserved today. Yet the latter is only true because demand is minuscule in the US while Tesla has to work through a huge order backlog. Talk about making lemonade out of lemons!

Now about delivery dates: Notice that this thread is titled Tesla Model 3 SR. Not AWD
If I wanted an SR my delivery date is targeted to early 2018. That leaves Tesla some wiggle room but my earlier statement of delivery within 2-3 months is reasonable. Not that it matters to me -- I paid Tesla my ~ $50 in opportunity cost interest to take delivery when I am ready, for the exact car I want. No problems here. Does that make me rich ? I'll say just not stupid.

Is the Tesla a higher TCO than the '18 LEAF ?
I think it reasonable to expect 15 years of full service from the Tesla and 8 years of hobbled service from the LEAF. You do the arithmetic.

I never said it was a “luxury vehicle.” In fact, I said it was silly to call it that if you look back at my post.

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My error.

iPlug said:

If we’re going with past is precedent, the purchase/lease threads here confirm that few pay listed MSRP or advertised lease terms. We paid way under advertised terms for our Leaf lease.

All of these things remain negotiable with Nissan dealers. It will be hard to get a bargain the first few months of most new generation vehicles, but thereafter no reason to believe the future will be different with the Leaf.

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Agreed. If I take my most recent experience as an example;

Nissan lease terms when I got my 2016 S30 was $1999 down, $199 a month, 36 months, 35 payments. 12,000 miles a year. Total basic cost; $8964 plus residual of roughly $11,000

So I added QC (well sort of... although listed as an option the VERY short run of 2016 S30's ALL came with QC) an additional 9,000 miles.

zero down, $245.99 a month, 35 payments. total cost; $8609.65

So how much below the lease term is that? Roughly $3000-$3500. I don't have exact figures but the difference was loyalty cash and employee discount program thru Blackstone Marketing. The lease terms had the Nissan factory incentive $4125 (in that neighborhood) along with $7500 lease cash already figured into it. Part of it also went into a reduced residual which was lower ($8100 or so) due to the discounts and the increased lease miles.

As far as less discounts early in the release? That is possible but there is also some consideration expected as a returning customer to the same dealership.

Either way, its all off the bottom line of an MSRP that starts out nearly even with the T3. That is where the $10,000 comes in for me. I don't have an option to get the T3 and most of the fed tax credit even if it were available today which it is not. The WA State incentive will likely start its very short one month sunset on in March which is another $3200 consideration. Granted a lease means the residual will not be tax free so that benefit shrinks to roughly $2100 give or take. But its not hard to see the $10,000 difference in price.

iPlug said:

If we’re going with past is precedent, the purchase/lease threads here confirm that few pay listed MSRP or advertised lease terms. We paid way under advertised terms for our Leaf lease.

All of these things remain negotiable with Nissan dealers. It will be hard to get a bargain the first few months of most new generation vehicles, but thereafter no reason to believe the future will be different with the Leaf.

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Very likely, and a quite reasonable assumption.

But if you want a LEAF *in the next few months*, because, you know, you cannot get a Model 3 *in the next few months*, because you lacked the $1000 in savings or foresight to reserve, you will pay MSRP for the LEAF.

SageBrush said:

You and I have very different notions of dumb.
Buying a new car when you do not have $1000 to set aside in a fully refundable reservation strikes me as nuts. At least in the US; I gather that buying a used car in Japan is a different set of numbers. Which is perhaps all the more reason why your post comparing LEAF cost in Japan to Model 3 cost in the US is silly.

There is a funny irony going on here. While the total deliveries of the '18 LEAF in the US is so far as I know ZERO, and a firm date for the start of deliveries is hard to come by, we all expect at least some deliveries somewhere in the next month. And we all presume that a LEAF ordered today will be available before a Tesla reserved today. Yet the latter is only true because demand is minuscule in the US. Talk about making lemonade out of lemons!

Now about delivery dates: Notice that this thread is titled Tesla Model 3 SR. Not AWD
If I wanted an SR my delivery date is targeted to early 2018. That leaves Tesla some wiggle room but my earlier statement of delivery within 2-3 months is reasonable. Not that it matters to me -- I paid Tesla my ~ $50 in opportunity cost interest to take delivery when I am ready, for the exact car I want. No problems here. Does that make me rich ? I'll say just not stupid.

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Thank you for proving my point. Next time name your thread something else.

DaveinOlyWA said:

iPlug said:

Nissan lease terms when I got my 2016 S30 was $1999 down, $199 a month, 36 months, 35 payments. 12,000 miles a year. Total basic cost; $8964 plus residual of roughly $11,000

So I added QC (well sort of... although listed as an option the VERY short run of 2016 S30's ALL came with QC) an additional 9,000 miles.

zero down, $245.99 a month, 35 payments. total cost; $8609.65

So how much below the lease term is that? Roughly $3000-$3500.

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8964 - 8609 = 355
How much is another 9000 miles ? Perhaps ~ $900 ?

Lucky you, to have the employee discount, although it is perhaps only also applicable to Ed the talking troll.

I'll jump in.

Let us know how the quick charging works out for you in a Leaf. If the equipment (DC level 3) isn't broken or non-functioning, they are in use at ONE SLOT PER location. You want a "quick" 20 min. charge it just doubled. Even in my area (PNW/Willamette Valley, OR), where the AV network is the best of the best, the above scenario(s) play out EVERYTIME I venture out of my now degraded 65 mile range (18 kWh per Leafspy). And doing more than one quick charge per day, you know, for long(ish) range? without a TMS for the batteries? in the Summer? good luck. history and data are NOT on Nissan's side here.

There's a reason Tesla leads ALL.

More power to those drivers who do not need to public charge or QC, so using a Leaf is an option...as a second car. or a single person. Super! But people buy on emotion and wants, not practicality. "What if i need to go on a long trip, can this car do it, even though i travel less than 40 miles everyday for the past 20 years?" THAT'S why Tesla Model 3 has the number of reservations.

To REPLACE the gassers, long range AND a charging network is needed. Yeah, I'll believe all the words on paper about VW diesel gate dollars funding a network of 100 kW stations when they actually get built.

Can't wait to hear about that US cross-country trip in these new 'long range' Leafs. sarcasm.

Um... The OP made a table to allow some comparisons. The high end Nissan Leaf and the low end Tesla Model 3 especially should be compared if wanting or needing a car with those features. It is informative. Each individual will make up their their own mind as to what will apply for their needs. For someone to say that Model 3 is vaporware is laughable! I haven't ordered a Model 3, but for my wants and needs at this time, between the two, Model 3 is the clear better choice.

jonathanfields4ever said:

Thank you for proving my point. Next time name your thread something else.

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That is the Tesla relevant portion of the title. Note the LEAF relevant portion in the title and the table.

After all, what would be the point of mentioning the LEAF part of the title when I was pointing out the difference between SR and AWD sub-models? So far as I know, the LEAF has neither.

SageBrush said:

jonathanfields4ever said:

Thank you for proving my point. Next time name your thread something else.

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That is the Tesla relevant portion of the title. Note the LEAF relevant portion in the title and the table.

After all, what would be the point of mentioning the LEAF part of the title when I was pointing out the difference between SR and AWD sub-models? So far as I know, the LEAF has neither.

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No.

This thread would appear to the reasonable person to be about comparing the Model 3 and the Leaf. I attempted to do so and removed as much of my personal circumstances as possible in order to make it fair. Where I live and in my situation the Leaf is the best and only option. But I thought it would be interesting to discuss the Leaf as a viable alternative to the Model 3 given availability and price. A buyer unconcerned with extra features who just wants to get off gas could probably get an S Leaf for $30K out the door within a month. I got a fully loaded SV for $33K. Further down the road lease offers could be even better. A Tesla Model 3 will cost $39,700 all told. That makes the comparison very, very interesting.

The Model 3 is a better car, but how much better? And can the Leaf continue its role as the affordable EV for the masses, or will the Model 3 take its place? That was the discussion I was hoping for, but instead I got veiled personal attacks. I'm not the only person to point this out, but this thread went in the entirely wrong direction. What did you want to get out of this when you started it? Because it seems like you wanted everyone to stand in a circle and yank on their superchargers.

Since you ask ...
The OP was meant to be an informative table devoid of bias or personal preference. Just the facts.

The motivation was actually Ed the Tesla troll, who referred to the Model 3 SR as the "stripper" model. It got me to wondering just how de-contented the car was compared to the LEAF. The answer turned out to be well provisioned, but it took enough digging around that I decided to share the effort and rebutt the trolling.

Of course specific content varies in its importance to each person. I don't value heated steering wheels at all, but I am quite sorry to not get TACC unless I buy the AP package in the Tesla. And on the LEAF side, lack of a robust and fast L3 charging network and the concern that the battery degradation will continue in the poor graces of earlier generations are HUGE negatives to me. So much so that if the Model 3 did not exist I would not be buying an EV to replace my Prius Prime. It also does not help the LEAF case in the slightest that Nissan has been quite the a**hole when it comes to customer support of their battery degradation problems.

The thread then took a perhaps predictable turn of LEAF fans trying to stereotype the Model 3 as a rich man's car when a fair review of the current facts suggests just the opposite. You ended up in the cross-hairs and for that I apologize.

SageBrush said:

SNIPPED

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OK, I appreciate that. I too apologize for getting heated.


Yeah, the charging infrastructure is huge for sure. That's going to be Tesla's leg up when the big manufacturers finally decide to put their weight behind EVs. It's something the people who like to predict doom and gloom for Tesla forget or try to ignore. I got to speak with a Nissan higher up who happened to be in Mie Prefecture when I was, and he said "we're fighting for our lives with Tesla abroad."

I wanted a Model 3 badly, but it's just not feasible over here. They don't even begin production on right-hand drive models until 2019 and I need a car absolutely right now. My wife wanted me to get a Honda Fit hybrid or Note series hybrid and hold out until the Model 3 finally comes, but I'm just ready to be done with gas and Nissan's charging network over here (7,000+ ChaDemo points at 50kW with unlimited use for ~$20 a month) sold it for me. As far as I know there are just 6 Superchargers in all of Japan, one of which has reportedly been closed for months. The only other options were a BMW i3 for $50K or a Mitsubishi iMiev for $24K, which is just a sick joke.

If I still lived in Colorado, I would have picked the Model 3 without a second thought, but the one thing I wanted to consider in this thread was the Leaf's place as an everyman's EV in the US. The original Leaf was basically the Prius of EVs. Now that the Model 3 is out and within reach of a lot of people, I wonder how it will fare. If SVs start to appear for $30K, $29K, $28K out the door or with attractive leases, I think it will prove an interesting alternative for many buyers.

7000 ChaDemo is awesome. In my corner of SW Colorado there is no CCS or ChaDemo within a 200 mile radius while Superchargers let me go in 3 directions easily and in the last direction with some annoyance that Tesla plans to improve this year.

I know Europe with its moderate climate has a much more favorable view of the LEAF battery than stateside. What is the climate like in Japan, and what is the translated tenor of Japanese owners about the battery ? I gather that the Japanese tendency to not have older cars on the road might color perceptions. True ?

SageBrush said:

7000 ChaDemo is awesome. In my corner of SW Colorado there is no CCS or ChaDemo within a 200 mile radius while Superchargers let me go in 3 directions easily and in the last direction with some annoyance that Tesla plans to improve this year.

I know Europe with its moderate climate has a much more favorable view of the LEAF battery than stateside. What is the climate like in Japan, and what is the translated tenor of Japanese owners about the battery ? I gather that the Japanese tendency to not have older cars on the road might color perceptions. True ?

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It gets really hot here in the summer, so I’m a bit worried. Like 40 degrees C. I’m not concerned about range in the slightest, but diminished regen could be a problem. Apparently Nissan’s software restricts regenereative braking beyond what’s necessary as the battery ages. I suppose that’s another knock against the Leaf...

I haven’t been able to find much online about the issue. I found a forum where one guy said Nissan screwed him on a battery that hit 8 segments too quick. That’s a bit scary. But I’m hoping an overall lack of news is good news. One website said a leaf battery will lose 10% over 5 years in climates that average 24C or below and 30% in climates that average 37C or more in 5 years, but I don’t know where they got those numbers.

I did find one thread where users were talking about how great Tesla batteries were and suggested that Nissan was purposely sticking with different chemistry because they were worried about killing the 5-year car replacement cycle golden goose. Two guys in the thread had Model 3 reservations, but the overall tenor was that the 2018 Leaf was exciting.


Driving culture here is a big factor as you suggest. People are generally put off by older vehicles and it gets harder to keep them on the road as they age. In year 3, 5, 7, 9, etc. you have a mandatory inspection called “shaken” that can cost anywhere from several hundred to a few thousand dollars. A lot of older cars are totaled in the process because you have to make the repairs they request or you lose your registration and have to jump through a bunch of hoops to get it back. Stubborn individuals who still want to maintain and hold onto a car have their auto tax raised after year 10. The official reason is that they’re trying to constantly get newer, more environmentally friendly cars out there, but everyone says it’s to keep people buying from domestic manufacturers on a regular basis.

Very interesting and informative -- thanks.
I realized that my question was poorly worded when I asked about "translated tenor." The Japanese I have met are circumspect and unlikely to outright criticize someone, let alone rant. So I was asking you to calibrate their opinions to an American scale.

It is interesting to speculate whether Nissan engineered the battery with a local culture in mind that does not expect the battery to last past ~ 8 years and driving distances are shorter. Probably not since Nissan clearly intended to sell the car world-wide but I've always wondered at the confidence Nissan engineers have displayed over the years in their battery technology. Clearly they are competent and I doubt they are liars, so the degradation in warm+ climates was unexpected.

Or so it seems.

Unsolicited advice: avoid leaving your battery fully charged. That goes 10x if the battery is over ~ 5 bars temperature.

SageBrush said:

SNIPPED

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Ah, I see what you mean. I couldn’t find much on the battery issue, so I donno if I can answer your question. The tenor of the one thread was sort of “alright Nissan, we still love you, but don’t let this American company eat your lunch.” They seemed more upset that the battery wasn’t 60kWh from the start.

One interesting thing I’ve found is that the overwhelming majority of people online are buying the S and adding an aftermarket nav system.

No, no, I’m all for advice on keeping my battery healthy. This is my first EV, so anything is helpful.

We’re fortunate here in California and the west coast with abundant CHAdeMO and still growing. It’s not like that in the rest of the West, Midwest, and South.

The 30kWh Leaf is the wife’s commuter car. We use my commuter Plug-in Prius for any car trips we take to Tahoe, Napa, the Bay Area, and Los Angeles. These are all family trips and the hatch space is quite useful then. Our Gen 1 Leaf could do these trips but it would be a PITA with so many charging stops. A 40kWh Leaf would be fine except for the 400 mile LA trip which would also require too much down time charging. A 60kWh Leaf would be fine for all, though would be a no go if we liked to venture out east and would need Tesla level infrastructure.

One interesting thing I’ve found is that the overwhelming majority of people online are buying the S and adding an aftermarket nav system.

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I realize you're talking about Japan and Europe, but I've seen no sign of this in North America. Here the people who buy an S don't care about navigation.

I'm not sure if it was already stated in this thread, but the 2018 SL has a leg up on the Model 3 with the full suite of driver assist options.

I believe with the Model 3, you need to purchase AutoPilot to get the equivalent features which adds another $5K USD to the base $35K Standard Range Model 3. So you are already at $40K USD, not $35K USD as in the Page 1 chart.

Plus, to get a similar interior (leather seats, etc.) in the Model 3 you need to add another $5K USD for Premium Interior (upgraded sound system, USB ports, etc.). So now you are at $45K USD versus a similarly equipped 2018 Leaf SL.

However, it really is not a fair comparison since the Model 3 has 1.5x the range, SuperCharging and OTA - which are the Tesla selling points and have always been since day 1.

The way I see it it really comes down to pricing. If one can spend the additional funds, then the Model 3 is a superb BEV, even though the ride is a bit harsher than the 2018 Leaf. However, the Model 3 will handle much better and be more sportier and more interior room.

For many, I am guessing they don't want rockets to fly around the road but good all around transportation with safety and decent passenger/cargo room and decent range. Most do not drive more than 50-60 miles a day for average commutes and if one has to drive more than 150 miles on a regular or more frequent basis, then spend more for the Model 3.

edatoakrun said:

SageBrush said:

DaveinOlyWA said:

That info is no more valid than the listed MSRP

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No two ways about it: you and Powersurge live in a delusion.

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This entire thread ha been a delusional exercise, in that a Tesla Model 3 SR does not actually exists at this time.

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Anybody who put down the $1k deposit still have a 2018 delivery date estimate from TSLA on a SR?

Do you still believe that will happen, at ~$36k?

When?

edatoakrun said:

edatoakrun said:

SageBrush said:

No two ways about it: you and Powersurge live in a delusion.

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This entire thread ha been a delusional exercise, in that a Tesla Model 3 SR does not actually exists at this time.

Click to expand...

Anybody who put down the $1k deposit still have a 2018 delivery date estimate from TSLA on a SR?

Do you still believe that will happen, at ~$36k?

When?

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I live in Canada (Toronto GTA area) and have a reservation, April 1, 2016 @ 0200am PST. Interested in SR with Paint upgrade and that's it. No bigger wheels, no AP, no Future Driverless. My current reservation shows Mid-2018 for SR/AWD SR/RWD would be Early 2019. First Production (LR, Premium, AP) shows Mid-2018 too.

To me, that is meaningless since it's been moved and still vague. Until I see Tesla really crank out the Model 3's (like 15-20K per month), I'm not believing these projections.

Yes, I do believe they will eventually ship the SR base ($35K USD) version, but not until well into 2019. They need to deliver higher margin versions in the short term (this CY) to slow down the money drain in the investments they are putting back into the company. Need to continue funding that too.

Hope this info helps.