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EVDRIVER
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Thu Mar 01, 2018 4:32 pm

edatoakrun wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:
edatoakrun wrote:This entire thread ha been a delusional exercise, in that a Tesla Model 3 SR does not actually exists at this time.

Anybody who put down the $1k deposit still have a 2018 delivery date estimate from TSLA on a SR?


https://seekingalpha.com/article/415066 ... nd-modesty


I bet their click through rate has gone through the roof with you pasting all these links. I hear Info Wars needs a traffic boost too....

powersurge
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:21 am

lilly wrote:The internet is full of blowhards who must be rich because their solution to any problem is to throw money at it. Yes, the Tesla is a better car, BUT it costs at least $5000 more than the Leaf. For the leaf's price point, engineering tradeoffs will have to be made.

That said, other leaf owners told me to expect a 30% battery degradation in 5 years. Since I live 2 miles from work, my battery should last 15 years. I seriously doubt any Tesla owner will drive their car for more than 15 years. I am not interested in the resale value.

That said, I also have a Model 3 on order. I can afford 1 tesla, not 2.


+1... I agree that these "blowhards" are just making noise about how great is the Tesla 3, just to muddy the water for every one.

Your estimate that the Tesla will be only $5k more than the Leaf is totally too generous. Saying that the Tesla 3 (which is still not on the market and is equal to vaporware) will only cost $35K is Tesla's way to slow down the EV market and buyers from buying other makes of EVs. It's like those ads for black Friday that a $1000 TV will be sold for $200.... (Try to find one at that price).

Lastly, if you have a Model 3 on order, and if you ever have the opportunity to get one.... DON"T. Tesla's business model is to make and "Eye" and "Ego" candy product that makes people drool. However, their payoff is making a "custom", low volume product that only they can service, fix, or supply parts from . I have heard of so many horror stories where the Teslas are in a minor accident, and either the parts to repair MUST be bought from T at gouging prices. Also, replacement parts must be installed so that the computer recognizes it (Tesla installed) OR the car is not worth the cost to repair, and the insurance companies "total" the car. Do you want that kind of "exclusive" car long term? Think about it....

SageBrush
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Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 2:28 am
Delivery Date: 13 Feb 2017
Location: Colorado

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Mar 02, 2018 6:44 am

lilly wrote:That said, other leaf owners told me to expect a 30% battery degradation in 5 years. Since I live 2 miles from work, my battery should last 15 years. I seriously doubt any Tesla owner will drive their car for more than 15 years. I am not interested in the resale value.
If all you want from an EV is to drive 2 miles between charges, you have a lot of choices. My wife uses one of our cars for that sort of in-town driving only and our used LEAF does great and was cheap.

My driving to work 90 miles round trip and our 250 mile drives each way to another city require an EV that:
1. starts off with a pretty large battery
2. Does not degrade over a few years
3. Has a supporting charging infrastructure that is fast, reliable, and available.

A LEAF is a non-starter, a Tesla Model 3 is perfect.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

lorenfb
Posts: 1845
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:06 am

powersurge wrote:
lilly wrote:The internet is full of blowhards who must be rich because their solution to any problem is to throw money at it. Yes, the Tesla is a better car, BUT it costs at least $5000 more than the Leaf. For the leaf's price point, engineering tradeoffs will have to be made.

That said, other leaf owners told me to expect a 30% battery degradation in 5 years. Since I live 2 miles from work, my battery should last 15 years. I seriously doubt any Tesla owner will drive their car for more than 15 years. I am not interested in the resale value.

That said, I also have a Model 3 on order. I can afford 1 tesla, not 2.


+1... I agree that these "blowhards" are just making noise about how great is the Tesla 3, just to muddy the water for every one.

Your estimate that the Tesla will be only $5k more than the Leaf is totally too generous. Saying that the Tesla 3 (which is still not on the market and is equal to vaporware) will only cost $35K is Tesla's way to slow down the EV market and buyers from buying other makes of EVs. It's like those ads for black Friday that a $1000 TV will be sold for $200.... (Try to find one at that price).

Lastly, if you have a Model 3 on order, and if you ever have the opportunity to get one.... DON"T. Tesla's business model is to make and "Eye" and "Ego" candy product that makes people drool. However, their payoff is making a "custom", low volume product that only they can service, fix, or supply parts from . I have heard of so many horror stories where the Teslas are in a minor accident, and either the parts to repair MUST be bought from T at gouging prices. Also, replacement parts must be installed so that the computer recognizes it (Tesla installed) OR the car is not worth the cost to repair, and the insurance companies "total" the car. Do you want that kind of "exclusive" car long term? Think about it....


Thanks for your logical and insightful perspective.
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 70K miles, 49 Ahrs, 5.1 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

powersurge
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:27 am

lorenfb wrote:
Thanks for your logical and insightful perspective.
[/quote][/quote]

I trust that you were not being sarcastic... People love or hate Tesla. The lovers seem to be fanatic groupies who feel that Tesla can do no wrong....

goldbrick
Posts: 274
Joined: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:33 pm
Delivery Date: 01 Aug 2017
Leaf Number: 311806
Location: Colorado front range

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Mar 02, 2018 11:59 am

powersurge wrote:The lovers seem to be fanatic groupies who feel that Tesla can do no wrong....


Agreed (mostly) - but taking an equivalent position at the other end of the spectrum doesn't 'balance out' the discussion as much as turn it into a religious battle with no rational discussion possible.

lorenfb
Posts: 1845
Joined: Tue Dec 17, 2013 10:53 pm
Delivery Date: 22 Nov 2013
Leaf Number: 416635
Location: SoCal

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Fri Mar 02, 2018 9:01 pm

powersurge wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
Thanks for your logical and insightful perspective.


I trust that you were not being sarcastic... People love or hate Tesla. The lovers seem to be fanatic groupies who feel that Tesla can do no wrong....


Yes. It'll be obvious when I'm sarcastic. Read the M3 thread. Many there dislike my negative but realistic posts about Tesla's marketing
of the M3, and how most M3 reservation holders were taken "down the garden path".
Leaf SL MY 9/13: 70K miles, 49 Ahrs, 5.1 miles/kWh (average), Hx=70, SOH=78, L2 charges to 100% > 1000, max battery temp < 95F (35C), min discharge point > 20 Ahrs

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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Sat Mar 03, 2018 2:58 pm

lorenfb wrote:
powersurge wrote:
lorenfb wrote:
Thanks for your logical and insightful perspective.


I trust that you were not being sarcastic... People love or hate Tesla. The lovers seem to be fanatic groupies who feel that Tesla can do no wrong....


Yes. It'll be obvious when I'm sarcastic. Read the M3 thread. Many there dislike my negative but realistic posts about Tesla's marketing
of the M3, and how most M3 reservation holders were taken "down the garden path".



Realistic posts based on your opinion. You literally cherry pic your points and ignore those that refute yours, ignore questions proposed to you that you ask of others, and state false facts and misinformed points on Tesla products. There are thousands of people that like Tesla that are not "fanboys", same for Nissan yet you have an uncanny way to choose your "facts". It's great that you think your posts are realistic but on the other hand you may ask yourself why you seem to have such a deep animosity for a car company. Lastly your talk like a Tesla expert yet you have never answered if you have even sat in one.

jonathanfields4ever
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Location: Kyoto

Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Sun Mar 04, 2018 6:21 am

SageBrush wrote:
kennethbokor wrote:My goal is not to discourage any Model 3 or Leaf lovers, but to provide a snapshot comparison of overall price point and value that can be had today with these two vehicles so that one can make a more better informed decision. Hope this helps.

You have cherry picked the configurations and ended up with two cars that are quite different.

Just from memory, in your Tesla config that is not in the LEAF:
[list=]All glass roof
12-way driver
6 way front passenger
TMS (double the longevity of the car ?)
SuperCharger network at ~ 90 kW
~ 55 kWh battery
Rear USB
Driver profiles
High quality interior
Large screen
Too many cameras to count
Auto folding mirros
[/list]

Pardon my saying so, but your 40 kWh LEAF is going to depreciate like a rock without a TMS and hobbled by a crappy DCFC network. The cutesy feature set cannot make up for basic deficiencies in the car. I've decided to skip the ACC (even though I will miss it!) and buy an AWD Tesla instead. I'll decide about the premium interior after I sit in the car. So for me a well equipped, superbly engineered EV that will completely replace my hybrid plug-in for the next decade or two is as low as ~ $40k USD.

Econobox or not, the LEAF cannot even be a consideration.


I think you’re overestimating the importance of a TMS. Tesla’s batteries have amazing longevity mostly because their battery chemistry is so good. So there’s hope for the 40kWh Leaf yet.

It’s a new NMC chemistry similar to that used in the Power Wall, which is optimized for longevity. It’s different again from Tesla vehicles, but it seems like a step in the right direction. At least it shows Nissan is really trying to solve the issue (especially since their old MNO chemistry made for cheaper batteries less susceptible to metals market swings).

From what I understand, batteries in the Leaf up to this point were used mostly because Nissan overestimated Leaf sales and made a bad deal with NEC.

It’s still quite early, but I’m hoping these new batteries are better... They apparently have a proprietary electrolytic solution that also helps improve lifespan. I can’t seem to find if these are still AESC or what, but Carlos Ghosn was talking about how great LG Chem is, so I’m wondering if they didn’t get some help this time.

Fingers crossed, cheeks clenched. Especially since my commute is 60 miles round trip. I’ve only been quick charging every 3 days or so. I’d like to keep it that way for a while.

SageBrush
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Re: 2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:05 am

jonathanfields4ever wrote:I think you’re overestimating the importance of a TMS.

If I am, then so is Tesla. Do you have that much insight into battery longevity, that you know what Tesla does not ?

You cannot pull the Nissan card here since they have proved many times over that they are willing to manufacture batteries that are severely degraded in just a few years.

If the longest drive between charges you will make is 60 miles, I think you will be in good shape for a long time -- hopefully way over a decade. After all, Nissan should replace your battery under warranty before you drop below your commute requirements. Not by a lot, but enough. I figure EPA battery range down to 100 miles just before the warranty kicks in, and up to a 30% range penalty from bad weather/roads etc. That puts you at 70 miles at your range nadir.
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
03/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
11/2018: 56.16 Ahr, 30k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

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