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Sorry, but BEV buses with enough capacity to function all day in cold whether in Cologne and Wuppertal Germany over 217-mile circuits are readily available to order today. Claiming otherwise is patently false.
 
RegGuheert said:
Sorry, but BEV buses with enough capacity to function all day in cold whether in Cologne and Wuppertal Germany over 217-mile circuits are readily available to order today. Claiming otherwise is patently false.
They don't think so and it's their money, which is why I'd like to see the operational requirements and performance specs of whichever buses they looked at.
 
GRA said:
RegGuheert said:
Sorry, but BEV buses with enough capacity to function all day in cold whether in Cologne and Wuppertal Germany over 217-mile circuits are readily available to order today. Claiming otherwise is patently false.
They don't think so and it's their money, which is why I'd like to see the operational requirements and performance specs of whichever buses they looked at.
It doesn't matter what they "think". The fact is that the 660-kWh Proterra bus can easily meet that range in their climate. In fact, that is exactly why a bus with such a large battery exists.

OTOH, I'm starting to think that Proterra may be limiting sales to the US right now. I'm not sure.
 
RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
RegGuheert said:
Sorry, but BEV buses with enough capacity to function all day in cold whether in Cologne and Wuppertal Germany over 217-mile circuits are readily available to order today. Claiming otherwise is patently false.
They don't think so and it's their money, which is why I'd like to see the operational requirements and performance specs of whichever buses they looked at.
It doesn't matter what they "think". The fact is that the 660-kWh Proterra bus can easily meet that range in their climate. In fact, that is exactly why a bus with such a large battery exists.

OTOH, I'm starting to think that Proterra may be limiting sales to the US right now. I'm not sure.
Presumably they did more than just think, but looked at actual performance specs and their operating requirements. I repeat, I'd like to know what those requirements are, what buses they considered and rejected, and the costings. The only info we have as to their reasons is as given in the quote, that BEV buses couldn't meet the range requirement. Anything else is idle speculation at this point.
 
GRA said:
The only info we have as to their reasons is as given in the quote, that BEV buses couldn't meet the range requirement. Anything else is idle speculation at this point.
Again, they are wrong. Their bias is showing.

Let's not propagate incorrect statements.
 
RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
The only info we have as to their reasons is as given in the quote, that BEV buses couldn't meet the range requirement. Anything else is idle speculation at this point.
Again, they are wrong. Their bias is showing.

Let's not propagate incorrect statements.
Again, we don't know that they're wrong, because we lack almost all the info required to make that determination. What we have is your opinion that they're wrong, but unless things work far differently in Germany than here, multi-million dollar business decisions are more likely to be based on engineering and financial analysis by (in-house or outside) experts than the opinions of anonymous amateur posters on EV enthusiast forums, and no matter how emphatically such posters state their opinions, if they lack all the operational and infrastructure requirements and cost data to base that opinion on (not to mention, I presume, don't speak the language), their opinions are just speculation.

That you suspect they're wrong doesn't cut it, absent all of the above. I suspected that El Hierro couldn't meet its claims based on the limited info that was initially available to us, but I couldn't say so absolutely without far more detailed operational data and costs, which we later acquired. We need the similar access to info here, including which if any BEV bus providers proffered bids for the contract, what prices were offered etc. When we have all that info, then we can offer an informed opinion. All we have now is a single range point without any details.
 
Via GCC:
Lightning Systems’ battery-electric Ford Transit on schedule for March deliveries; fuel cell range extender option
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180306-lightning.html

. . . Both the all-electric and the zero-emissions hydrogen fuel cell range extender are available for heavy-duty Transits with a 10,360-pound gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR). Ford’s vehicle warranty covers the base chassis for vehicles with the Lightning conversions. Installations and service are performed by Ford QVM upfitters and dealers around the world.

The all-electric Lightning product features a liquid-cooled Lithium-ion battery from a volume-ready world-class battery supplier that can be fast-charged in thirty-minutes on DC fast charging, and in six hours with Level 2 charging. Depending on battery option and drive cycle, LightningElectric has a payload capacity of up to 4,000 pounds. . . .

The LightningElectric fuel cell range extender uses hydrogen stored onboard in high-tech carbon fiber-wrapped pressure vessels equipped with sensors. The hydrogen will be delivered to the fuel cell system to generate electricity to charge a Lithium-Ion battery with up to 30 kW of power. In addition to the range of more than 200 miles, the vehicle will have a top speed of 75 mph, making it suited for applications in which long range and zero emissions are required. . . .
The BEV's available this month, the FC RE will be available in California (only) come September.
 
Via GCC:
Efficient Drivetrains delivers six plug-in-hybrid, renewable-CNG armored trucks
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180307-edi.html

. . . The fleet of six 26,000 pound, Class-6 medium duty armored truck operates with the same expected OEM performance while reducing emissions by up to 99.9% in certain duty cycles.

Fleet end user Sectran Security armored vehicles make frequent stops as part of their highly congested city routes in Southern California. At each stop, engines are kept idling for security purposes, but now risk violating California’s strict diesel idling regulations, which prohibit idling the engine for more than five minutes.

With the modernized PHEV trucks, engine idling is eliminated entirely, by operating in all-electric mode during stop-and-go operations, and in hybrid mode using renewable natural gas (RNG) during highway operations. By deploying the full fleet of six, the vehicles enable Sectran to reduce annual diesel consumption by 31,000+ gallons, significantly reducing annual fuel costs, and emissions by up to 99.9%. . . .

The EDI PowerDrive 6000 has been durability tested over 3.8 million miles in a commercial fleet setting of city buses, and has been deployed across major North American OEMs including International, Freightliner, and Peterbilt platforms.

The vehicle program is a collaboration between Efficient Drivetrains and North American Repower, and includes funding from the California Energy Commission, which approved a $3-million grant award from its Energy Research and Development Division.
 
Via GCC:
Redding running 17 Scania biogas buses on busiest route
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180-309-redding.html
In the UK, Reading Buses has placed 17 new high-end Scania double decker biogas buses into operation. The buses, with bodywork by Alexander Dennis, service Reading’s busiest bus route, the Purple 17. . . .

The Low Emission Bus Certificate, based on testing at Millbrook, puts the well-to-wheel GHG emissions of the double-decker biogas bus at 207.9 g CO2e/km, compared to 1290.1 g CO2e/km for a Euro V diesel equivalent. . . .
 
Via GCR:
UPS says 50 Workhorse plug-in hybrid trucks cost no more than regular delivery vans
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...rid-trucks-cost-no-more-than-regular-vehicles

In a press release issued in late February, UPS said the 50 plug-in electric delivery trucks it will deploy "will be comparable in acquisition cost to conventional-fueled trucks without any subsidies."

That achievement is, it said, "an industry first that [breaks] a key barrier to large-scale fleet adoption."

Indeed, it is the high cost of lithium-ion battery packs to provide adequate range in large, heavy delivery trucks that has proven to be the hurdle to wider adoption thus far. . . .

The startup truck company said the cab-forward Class 5 delivery trucks it provides to UPS will travel roughly 100 miles between battery recharges, which UPS expect to do overnight at its depots.

Neither UPS nor Workhorse provided specifications or images of the vans to be acquired, however—so readers should note the images in this article are of different types of delivery vans. . . .
Something seems to be off here. Why would you need 100 miles AER in a PHEV used for local P&D? Half that would seem to be plenty, if you're going to use an ICE to get you to the delivery area and back. We'll need to wait for clarification.

I can see wanting that much range total, like this GCR article from last May:
UPS electric van with fuel-cell range extender to be tested in California
https://www.greencarreports.com/new...ell-range-extender-to-be-tested-in-california

That provides 125 miles total, including a 45kWh battery pack and a 32 kW fuel cell stack with 10 kg. of H2.
 
Voia GCC:
Volvo Buses receives order for 90 electrified buses from Brussels; more than 4,000 sold worldwide
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180314-byd.html

Volvo Buses has received an order for 90 hybrid buses from Brussels. With this order, the company has now sold more than 4000 electrified buses to customers worldwide. The Volvo Buses range of electrified buses encompasses hybrid buses, rechargeable electric hybrid buses, and all-electric buses.

The 90 Volvo 7900 Hybrids were ordered by STIB-MIVB, which provides public transport in Brussels. Most of the buses will be delivered and will enter regular traffic this year. The order also includes service and maintenance of the buses. . . .

The aim is that the entire vehicle fleet should be electrified by 2030 at the latest. Volvo has sold 90 hybrids and 101 electric hybrids to Belgium.

The Volvo 7900 Hybrid is propelled entirely electrically and emission-free from standstill up to 15–20 km/h. As speed rises, a small diesel engine is activated. The Volvo 7900 Hybrid offers 30–40% lower fuel consumption and CO2 emissions than a corresponding diesel bus. Particle and nitrogen oxide emissions are 50% lower.
 
Via GCC:
Indian Oil and Tata launch demo trials of India’s first hydrogen fuel cell bus
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180315-iocl.html

. . . The project is being executed under the partial financial support from the Government of India’s Department of Scientific and Industrial Research (DSIR) and Ministry of New and Renewable Energy (MNRE).

To be fueled at nation’s first hydrogen dispensing facility at Indian Oil’s R&D Center, the vehicle will be subjected to long duration trials to understand the durability and efficacy of the fuel cell technology for mobility applications. . . .
 
Via GCC (see related post upthread):
Ballard range-extender fuel cell module to power hybrid UPS delivery van trial program in California
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180320-ballard.html

Ballard Power Systems has signed a contract with CALSTART for a Ballard 30 kW FCveloCity-MD fuel cell module to be used in a trial and development program involving UPS Class-6 delivery vans operating in California’s South Coast Air Basin, including much of the Greater Los Angeles area. Funding for the project is being provided by the South Coast Air Quality Management District (SCAQMD) as part of its efforts to reduce harmful air pollution.

The range of current battery-powered Class-6 UPS delivery vans is only sufficient for a limited percentage of routes, and often not for the majority of routes in any delivery area. This percentage can be further reduced if the delivery locations face unexpected heavier loads, hilly terrain or colder temperatures.

A range-extension solution using Ballard’s fuel cell range extender system can address these limitations by boosting drive range and providing certainty of completing daily delivery missions while maintaining zero-emission performance. . . .


CALSTART’s primary goal for this project is to demonstrate the business case and technical feasibility of deploying fuel cell hybrid electric Class-6 vehicles with greater range capability such that UPS chooses to deploy up to 1,500 similar vehicles in its California fleet over the next 5-years—representing a significant percentage of UPS’s 8,000 California delivery vans—while also demonstrating the economic and technical potential of this technology to other operators of the states’ approximately 650,000 Class 4-to-7 vehicles.

The program with UPS will use a 23,000 lb. Class-6 delivery van capable of speeds up to 65 miles per hour. The UPS van will be equipped with a 71 kWh lithium-ion battery and a 30kW Ballard fuel cell engine. Viewed as a replacement for an older diesel delivery van, this zero-emission configuration will deliver a net 24 metric ton reduction in greenhouse gases (GHGs) together with a 0.02 ton reduction in criteria pollutant emissions on an annual basis. . . .
Of course, as this is Ballard making the bolded claim consider the source applies (as it does with any manufacturer pushing their particular product), but as UPS has been doing dem/vals with BEVs, ICE and hydraulic HEVs, PHEVs and FCEVs for many years now, if any company has real-world AFV comparison data over the full range of their delivery truck operating requirements, it's them.

Also via GCC (see earlier post upthread):
UPS-led SEUL consortium switches on smart-grid fleet charging solution in London; maxing out on EVs without expensive grid upgrades
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/201080320-seul.html

. . . This new system will allow UPS to increase the number of EVs operating from the central London site from the current limit of 65 to all 170 trucks stationed there without the need for such upgrades. This is achieved with a smart-grid which uses a central server which is connected to each EV charge post as well as the grid power supply and the on-site energy storage.

A sophisticated network capacity assessment tool takes into account time of day variation in demand. The system adopts an “intelligent” approach to charging by spreading this throughout the night so that the building can use the power it needs to run the business of logistics (lights, sortation machinery and IT) and ensure that all EVs are fully charged by the time they are needed in the morning, but at the same time never exceed the maximum power available from the grid.

As a result of this project and the learning that comes with the related investments, UPS can now tailor the lowest cost approach building by building and determine how best to adopt and charge a fully electric fleet. This will be accomplished by combining a variety of solutions including conventional power grid upgrade, smart grid, on-site energy storage with batteries and local power generation (using, for example, solar energy generated on facility roof tops). . . .

A key part of this initiative is the use of onsite energy storage batteries. Although new batteries have been deployed at this stage, it is envisaged that in the future these could be second-life batteries that have already been used in a UPS EV. Together with the smart-grid, this will pave the way toward a UPS EV infrastructure strategy that can dynamically make use of a conventional power upgrade, a smart grid, onsite storage, and in many cases, local power generation including solar and other alternative sources. . . .
 
Via GCC:
ULEMCo delivers first hydrogen dual fuel road sweeper to Aberdeen City Council
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180322-ulemco.html

UK-based ULEMCo—a spin-out from Revolve Technologies focused on conversions of diesel vehicles to hydrogen dual fuel operation—has collaborated with Aberdeen City Council (ACC) to deliver the first hydrogen dual fuel road sweeper. The vehicles will use hydrogen fuel for around a third of the energy used to drive and operate the vehicles.

The cleaner sweeper has been adapted by retrofitting a standard EURO 6 DAF truck to run on both diesel and hydrogen fuel. Emission savings of around 30% are projected from the refitting of ULEMCo technology onto the DAF truck. . . .

ACC will be able to refuel the sweepers at the state of the art Aberdeen City Hydrogen Energy Storage (ACHES) hydrogen station, which makes hydrogen from renewable electricity, on a daily basis. . . .

The work was delivered as part of project HyTIME, within the Low Emission Freight and Logistics Trial, funded by the Office for Low Emission Vehicles (OLEV) in partnership with Innovate UK. . . .

ULEMCo’s hydrogen conversion includes:

  • 350 bar (5000 psi) storage tanks
    350 bar refueling pressure nozzle
    350 bar pressure pipework & regulators
    Injection system
    Dual Fuel switch and unique H2ICED engine control unit
    Wiring system and safety components
    Appropriate vehicle road use paperwork
    Data management system (where needed)
    24/7 support & training
    Maintenance and service package
    12 month free warranty
 
Via GCC:
MAN eTGE battery-electric van to be mass-produced from July onwards
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/201080324-man.html

MAN, a member of the Volkswagen Group, is now selling a battery-electric van, the MAN eTGE. Providing a range of up to 160 kilometers and a payload of 950 to 1,700 kg, the electric MAN eTGE is suited for urban tasks, depending on the type approval (3.5 or 4.25 tonnes). . . .

Around 70% of light commercial vehicles used in urban areas travel fewer than 100 kilometers per day on average. The average speed reached during this is low. With this in mind, the vehicle’s theoretical range of up to 160 kilometers covers about three-quarters of all urban-core transport.

A 40 kW charging station fills a battery up to 80% in 45 minutes. The MAN eTGE can be restored to full operational capacity after just under five and a half hours on an alternating current wallbox. Approximately nine hours are needed for a full charge with 220V AC.

With the relevant battery maintenance, the 36 kWh rechargeable battery only loses around 15% of its capacity after ten years and around 2,000 charging cycles. Individual modules of six or twelve cells can be replaced separately. The modules are located under the slightly higher load floor, as used for rear-wheel drive body versions with diesel engines.

The electric front-wheel drive TGE uses a permanently excited synchronous motor with 100 kW maximum available power. It has 290 N·m of torque at its immediate disposal. Combined with the maximum speed of 90 km/h, this results in fuel consumption of around 20 kWh per 100 kilometers. . . .

As with all TGEs, the emergency brake assist (EBA) continues to be installed as standard.

In the initial phase of the roll-out, the MAN eTGE can be ordered with the standard wheelbase and high roof. The product line is primarily aimed at fleet customers with a tailored service concept to tend to their needs. Initial customer enquiries and signed sales contracts have already been made for the MAN eTGE, which costs around €69,500 (US$85,855).

The first electric-powered vans from MAN are to be used first in metropolitan areas of Germany, Austria, Belgium, France, Norway and the Netherlands.
 
I ran across this video from Bloomberg with some background and some nice shots of the Thor Truck in action:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po80nVKg6uw[/youtube]

I like the looks of that truck. I expect it will be starring in some Hollywood films soon! :)
 
Via GCC:
Toyota launches production model Sora fuel cell bus in Japan
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/03/20180328-sora.html

Toyota Motor Corporation has begun sales of the Sora (an acronym for Sky, Ocean, River, Air)—the first fuel cell bus (FC bus) to receive vehicle type certification in Japan. Toyota expects to introduce more than 100 fuel cell buses, mainly within the Tokyo metropolitan area, ahead of the Olympic and Paralympic Games Tokyo 2020. . . .

The Sora is equipped with a high-capacity external power output device, which can provide high output and a large capacity of electricity supply (9 kW maximum output, and electricity supply of 235 kWh) and has potential use as an emergency power source following disasters.

The Sora’s seats are automatically stored when not in use, improving comfort and convenience for passengers with strollers and wheelchairs as well as other passengers. . . .

The bus is powered by twin 114 kW fuel cell stacks, driving two 113 kW, 335 N·m drive motors. Ten 70 MPa hydrogen storage tanks hold 600 liters of fuel; the bus is equipped with a NiMH battery.
It has some other non-FC-related tricks, detailed in the article.
 
RegGuheert said:
I ran across this video from Bloomberg with some background and some nice shots of the Thor Truck in action:

I like the looks of that truck. I expect it will be starring in some Hollywood films soon! :)
The video's not showing when I look at your post, but the link comes up so I can see it when I quote you. I've posted the link for anyone else who can't see it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Po80nVKg6uw
 
This might be the best thing Nikola ever did: Nikola Motors refunds all semi deposits. Nikola's real problems don't come until they start providing free fuel to customers which costs them much more than they collect in lease payments each month. And that's not even mentioning the cost to design, develop and manufacture the trucks themselves.

Also note that this removes all incentive for anyone to pull their registration from the list. That way, when Nikola's financial situation becomes obvious, there will be no flight to the door. Why their financial situation is not obvious to all comers is beyond me. I suppose most people have no idea how expensive it is to make H2 gas and compress it into a tank.
 
Via GCC:
Nikola Motor Company hires Jesse Schneider from BMW as hydrogen and fuel cell technologies VP
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/04/20180411-jesse.html

. . . A noted hydrogen and fuel cell expert, Schneider is an automotive industry veteran who spent most of his career working for BMW and Mercedes-Benz.

Schneider has spent nearly 20 years in vehicle electrification, fuel cells, electric and hydrogen infrastructure and storage tanks at automakers in Germany, the United States and China. He led a number of firsts related to fuel cell durability, hydrogen tanks and wireless charging.

Schneider also organized the worldwide standardization for electric and fuel cell vehicle infrastructure. He served as the chair of Hydrogen Fueling Standards and Specifications at SAE (J2601/2799) and ISO (TS 19880-1) and most recently, wireless charging at SAE (J2954).

At Nikola, Schneider will spearhead efforts with the Fuel Cell R&D Division working with Bosch in Germany (earlier post) and the hydrogen fueling technology team for the Nikola stations with NEL Hydrogen in Norway. He will also lead the development of the Nikola R&D Center in Phoenix. . . .

Also GCC:
Efficient Drivetrains introduces CNG PHEV for agriculture work truck applications
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/04/20180411-edi.html

Efficient Drivetrains, Inc. (EDI) has integrated integration its EDI PowerDrive 4000 into a Class-4 General Motors Low Cab Forward platform, creating an electrified work truck for agriculture applications.

The vehicle combines the benefits of a CNG Fuel system and Plug-in Hybrid (PHEV) technology and is geared to help agriculture fleets switch from petroleum-based liquid fuels to domestically available, cleaner burning natural gas and electricity. . . .

The truck will be operated in San Joaquin Valley, a 250-mile-long region susceptible to air pollution due to its bordering mountain ranges.

The new vehicle provides 40+ miles of all electric, zero-emissions driving, and range extension utilizing CNG, resulting in a significant elimination of particulate matter that its traditional diesel counterparts expel. Vehicle operators will experience the expected full power OEM truck performance without change to driver behavior, with the added benefit of zero-emissions driving, cleaner air for their workforce and the surrounding community, and significantly reduced fuel costs.

The EDI PowerDrive has been durability tested over 3.8 million miles in a commercial fleet setting, and has been deployed across major North American OEMS. . . .

Also GCC:
FCH JU & SHIFT2RAIL JU launching new study on fuel cell use within railway market
http://www.greencarcongress.com/2018/04/20180409-h2rail.html

. . .the European Fuel Cells and Hydrogen Joint Undertaking (FCH JU) and Shift2Rail Joint Undertaking (S2R JU) are partnering again on a joint call for tender for a study around the use of fuel cells in the rail market.

The purpose of this new study will be to address the needed market analysis and assess the potential of fuel cell and hydrogen technologies for the rail sector, both in passenger and freight.

The investigation could, for example, include analyses on the CO2 performance (through Life Cycle Analysis techniques) of current rail powertrain solutions and demonstrate the specific emissions saving that can be achieved by replacing conventional technologies.

. . . the contractor will perform tasks such as providing at the state of the art and existing initiatives; developing a business case and market potential; identifying case studies; providing with recommendations on future activities with particular focus on short term R&I.
 
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