2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

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Zythryn said:
The implementation of a passive battery management system is questionable, at best.
2011-2012 Leafs in warm climates had horrible results. Even in cold climates, they haven’t been very good.

When the 2011s came out Nissan SAID the batteries had undergone extensive testing in hot weather environments and would be fine.
That turned out not to be the case.

The ‘warm weather’ batteries, from reports, seem to have done better, but still not as good as batteries with active battery management systems.

From what I have heard, the 2019 Leaf will have a larger battery and an active battery management system.
I don’t see how people can argue for a passive system. Unless they believe in 3-5 year disposable cars.
Click to expand...

It’s far more likely that chemistry is the really important factor. Even ‘Lizard’ Leaf packs contained LMO spinel batteries. Magnesium batteries tend to have terrible lifespans. AESC claimed to have solved the heat issue with a new electrolytic solution, but it turned out not to work so well.

For the 2018 Leaf, Nissan went so far as to eat a ton of money to get out of an agreement with NEC and fit the car with NMC packs. This should lead to far higher longevity. It remains to be seen whether this chemistry will be as good as the NCA chemistry used in Tesla cars (I’m gonna say probably not...), but Tesla trusts NMC enough to put them in Power Walls, so I have high hopes.

The driving performance and charging speed of the new Leaf just isn’t enough to warrant a TMS. I can drive like a maniac through the mountains and then go charge at 50kW for 40 minutes in 25C weather with the sun beating down and battery temps don’t even hit the halfway mark. We’ll see how it does in summer when outdoor temperatures are 40C or so, but I’m thinking it will do well.
 
Zythryn said:
The implementation of a passive battery management system is questionable, at best.
2011-2012 Leafs in warm climates had horrible results. Even in cold climates, they haven’t been very good.

When the 2011s came out Nissan SAID the batteries had undergone extensive testing in hot weather environments and would be fine.
That turned out not to be the case.

The ‘warm weather’ batteries, from reports, seem to have done better, but still not as good as batteries with active battery management systems.

From what I have heard, the 2019 Leaf will have a larger battery and an active battery management system.
I don’t see how people can argue for a passive system. Unless they believe in 3-5 year disposable cars.
Click to expand...

They did do the test but the reality is they didn't know what was important. Its not "just" heat or High SOC. It is heat+High SOC+ Time.

They baked the pack at 140º 24/7 for a month cycling it over and over and the results were good.

BUT the time spent at high SOC was momentary (realize the temperature was a CONSTANT 140º) due to the 20 min discharge cycle (imagine full throttle up the Grapevine) and 60 min recharge cycle.

Now we don't see 140º much. But the degradation curve actually starts well below what we consider to be warm. So 100% at 80º isn't good. Every SECOND hurts. Death by a million tiny cuts if you will but Death is unavoidable in those circumstances.


But that is not how we treated the packs. We took advantage of all the free level 2 charging that was ABUNDANT in the early days and we charged very slowly and relatively coolly to full in the middle of the day in a wide open parking lot thinking we were getting over cause we got $1.65 of free electricity at the expense of our $6500 battery pack.
 
Since reading these posts, I have changed in my charging behavior...

I used to come home in the evenings from work, and plug the car in for the next day... So it would stay 100% charged overnight.

Now, I come home and leave the car parked overnight at about 50%. When I wake up in the morning, I plug in the car for 1 1/2 hours before I go to work.. I leave for work at 95-100%. very low time at high SOC. I hope this makes a good result....
 
powersurge said:
Since reading these posts, I have changed in my charging behavior...

I used to come home in the evenings from work, and plug the car in for the next day... So it would stay 100% charged overnight.

Now, I come home and leave the car parked overnight at about 50%. When I wake up in the morning, I plug in the car for 1 1/2 hours before I go to work.. I leave for work at 95-100%. very low time at high SOC. I hope this makes a good result....
Click to expand...

Definitely a better way to go as long as that 50% is enough to cover any possible unexpected need.
 
powersurge said:
Now, I come home and leave the car parked overnight at about 50%. When I wake up in the morning, I plug in the car for 1 1/2 hours before I go to work.. I leave for work at 95-100%. very low time at high SOC. I hope this makes a good result....
Click to expand...
Or just set the timer; then you will not have to fuss around with plugging in each morning.
 
Zythryn said:
I don’t see how people can argue for a passive system. Unless they believe in 3-5 year disposable cars.
Click to expand...
Eight years. The warranty says so.

Half joking aside, the crappy battery is much more a problem with depreciation than actually towing the car to a dumpster. After all, 50 miles is still useful to someone for another year or two.
 
I haven't read through the whole thread.

But clearly the biggest issue with the comparison is that the $35k SR Model 3 does not exist today and its not clear when it will exist, if ever, nor what it will actually contain. Tesla may continue to try and de-content as they delay it.

A year or two down the road when the Model 3 SR is available the LEAF will be available with 200+ mile range and price will likely drop on lower ranger version.
 
+1

Unfortunately, I think that Tesla will be the next installment of the Avanti, DeLorean, and Bricklin club.

I hope I am wrong, but when a touted product that seems too good to be true... Does not appear, I get worried, like Ponzi schemes...
 
powersurge said:
Unfortunately, I think that Tesla will be the next installment of the Avanti, DeLorean, and Bricklin club.
Click to expand...

Aren't you the genius that proclaimed with the confidence that comes from abject ignorance that the Model 3 would never see the light of day ?

Check out February, a month that Tesla is still struggling with the ramp-up:

uc


Enjoy the graph; this is the closest the LEAF will get to the Model 3.
 
SageBrush said:
powersurge said:
Unfortunately, I think that Tesla will be the next installment of the Avanti, DeLorean, and Bricklin club.
Click to expand...

Aren't you the genius that proclaimed with the confidence that comes from abject ignorance that the Model 3 would never see the light of day ?

Check out February, a month that Tesla is still struggling with the ramp-up:

uc


Enjoy the graph; this is the closest the LEAF will get to the Model 3.
Click to expand...

Yeah... no one here is as emotionally invested in this issue as you are, so I don’t think that’s going to bother anyone.
 
Yes for a Leaf-centric Forum, wondering why all this talk about Tesla! If you want to talk Tesla, there are many good forums to do this on.

No need to go on-and-on about the validity of Tesla and how good they are. People have their own views but this forum IMO is not the place to debate Tesla vs. Nissan or anyone else.

I look to this forum as a source of info and shared experiences for the Nissan Leaf, not Tesla Model 3.
 
I am motivated to post Tesla information by people who post Tesla FUD or troll Tesla.

E.g.,
Unfortunately, I think that Tesla will be the next installment of the Avanti, DeLorean, and Bricklin club.
Click to expand...

Sharing of LEAF expertise is a wonderful thing.
An echo chamber of FUD and trolling other EVs is apparently the support some owners want, but they will not get it from me.
 
kennethbokor said:
Yes for a Leaf-centric Forum, wondering why all this talk about Tesla! If you want to talk Tesla, there are many good forums to do this on.

No need to go on-and-on about the validity of Tesla and how good they are. People have their own views but this forum IMO is not the place to debate Tesla vs. Nissan or anyone else.

I look to this forum as a source of info and shared experiences for the Nissan Leaf, not Tesla Model 3.
Click to expand...

This thread was a great idea, but it went off the rails at the very first post.
 
scottf200 said:
SageBrush said:
I started this table in another thread but I think it has reached a point where I can bring it out to full light. As more information or errors emerge I'll update this OP. Please refrain from quoting the table since I have no way of updating the table in a quote.

Last updated: 1/25/2018, 20:34 MST
Change log:
1/25: Auto Emergency braking added to 'S' and 'SV' models
Click to expand...
Nice effort! Thoughts and suggestion on AEB/Auto Emergency Braking is to break this into two line/entries. My recently research into the Volt and Bolt is that they only do up to 37 MPH (Low Speed Auto Emerg Braking) but supposedly the Volt with ACC/Adaptive Cruise Control will do High-Speed AEB. Bolt does not offer ACC that I know of. That seems to be a secret tho as I (nor others in the know) can locate any doc on that. Still roads around Chicagoland even in the suburbs are 40 and 45 MPH so the up to 37 MPH in the Volt/Bolt is not great.

The Model 3 currently just has Slow-Speed Auto Emerg Braking to 50 MPH. Perhaps just like the X/S they are validating the High-Speed Emerg Braking (up to 85 or 90 MPH).

Low-Speed Auto Emerg Braking
High-Speed Auto Emerg Braking

[update]2018 LEAF manual clarify that the AEB is Low-Speed (up to 50 mph -- still better than Bolt and matches Model 3 so far) states:
The radar sensor has some performance limitations. If a stationary vehicle is in the vehicles’s path, the AEB system will not function when the vehicle is driven at speeds over approximately 50 mph (80 km/h).
[/update]
Click to expand...
TM3 has High-Speed Auto Emerg Braking now.
ismg6w994ul01.png
 
kennethbokor said:
Yes for a Leaf-centric Forum, wondering why all this talk about Tesla! If you want to talk Tesla, there are many good forums to do this on.

No need to go on-and-on about the validity of Tesla and how good they are. People have their own views but this forum IMO is not the place to debate Tesla vs. Nissan or anyone else.

I look to this forum as a source of info and shared experiences for the Nissan Leaf, not Tesla Model 3.
Click to expand...


I guess we should remove all the other non-Nissan topics as well which would reduce the size of the forum down about 80%.

Most non LEAF posts are fueled buy a few people that search the internet posting Tesla FUD on MNL creating many more responses. There is every reason to compare EVs here but the constant fear mongering and trolling of a couple people on a few threads adds far to much garbage to the discussion. MNL is full of OT threads which are larger and more numerous than any EV forum I have ever visited. One can simply stay in the Nissan topic threads if they don't like the subject matter.


Speaking of comparisons the chart covers generic features and does not compare the actual hardware and software differences of the two cars or the safety of the vehicles crash ratings yet. I assume that is buying decision for many people.
 
edatoakrun said:
Fanciful comparison of the LEAF you can buy today to TWO presently non-existent model 3s:

Standard: $35,000

Long Range: $44,000
Click to expand...
scottf200 said:
Detailed comparison table in this article.
compare-model-3-nissan-leaf
http://www.xautoworld.com/tesla/compare-model-3-nissan-leaf/
Click to expand...
Click to expand...


You don't quit do you. Why don't you go back to throwing darts at pictures of Teslas.
 

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