Official Tesla Model 3 thread

lorenfb said:

Nubo said:

lorenfb said:

You are aware that not all vehicle problems can be resolved by OTA updates, i.e. there're ECUs which can only be re-flashed (updated)
by having the vehicle at the service department using the vehicle's diagnostic tool, e.g. for Nissan - the Consult tool. And in many cases,
the ECU can't easily be re-flashed by the OEM's diagnostic tool, but must be sent back or replaced by the ECU's OEM, e.g. an ABS ECU,
a suspension controller, or the motor controller. A good example is the present Nissan Leaf problem with the TCU module causing
problematic issues with the 12V battery, i.e. most likely the TCU in all likelihood must be replaced. So OTA updates are useful for tweaking
UI issues and major mods to the AP system, but is very limited when it comes to major problematic running/driveability issues. ...

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If you're designing a system from the ground up with an OTA update strategy, then I'd reckon you'd push as much logic as possible into the OTA-updateable firmware, leaving only bare-bones startup and limp-mode logic in the EEPROM.

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But Tesla is NOT designing ALL the ECUs used in its vehicles! Where did you get that idea? Let me guess, MNL forum? Tesla doesn't have the
engineering resources or the fab capability to produce all the unique sub-systems it needs. As an example, Nvidia doesn't provide re-flash
capability to Nvidia's GPU, e.g. the processor's control store or logic, used by Tesla's AP function. Yes, Tesla can re-compile its source code
for AP and then OTA download, i.e. to a unique flash memory in the GPU, mods to the functionality of the AP but NOT how the GPU functions.
Nvidia maintains proprietary control over that flashable section of the GPU.

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Tesla can OTA fully flash firmware on any device on the car that has firmware, not tweak but fully flash. This includes ABS modules, steering wheel buttons, and every item on the car and every little part NOT just Tesla made parts. Sorry you are yet once again misinformed. No other auto maker does this. Where do you get your information, the Google? Please take off your Nissan hat it's old and weathered. Would you like to make a pizza bet on this? I know you pass every single time I offer.

lorenfb said:

Nubo said:

lorenfb said:

You are aware that not all vehicle problems can be resolved by OTA updates, i.e. there're ECUs which can only be re-flashed (updated)
by having the vehicle at the service department using the vehicle's diagnostic tool, e.g. for Nissan - the Consult tool. And in many cases,
the ECU can't easily be re-flashed by the OEM's diagnostic tool, but must be sent back or replaced by the ECU's OEM, e.g. an ABS ECU,
a suspension controller, or the motor controller. A good example is the present Nissan Leaf problem with the TCU module causing
problematic issues with the 12V battery, i.e. most likely the TCU in all likelihood must be replaced. So OTA updates are useful for tweaking
UI issues and major mods to the AP system, but is very limited when it comes to major problematic running/driveability issues. ...

Click to expand...

If you're designing a system from the ground up with an OTA update strategy, then I'd reckon you'd push as much logic as possible into the OTA-updateable firmware, leaving only bare-bones startup and limp-mode logic in the EEPROM.

Click to expand...

But Tesla is NOT designing ALL the ECUs used in its vehicles! Where did you get that idea? Let me guess, MNL forum? Tesla doesn't have the
engineering resources or the fab capability to produce all the unique sub-systems it needs. As an example, Nvidia doesn't provide re-flash
capability to Nvidia's GPU, e.g. the processor's control store or logic, used by Tesla's AP function. Yes, Tesla can re-compile its source code
for AP and then OTA download, i.e. to a unique flash memory in the GPU, mods to the functionality of the AP but NOT how the GPU functions.
Nvidia maintains proprietary control over that flashable section of the GPU.

Click to expand...

Well, I didn't imagine they are designing their own silicon but I surmised they have some say in the specifications. Or are these strictly off-the-shelf components? Not sure how important this is; how often is a Tesla fix related to the hands-off firmware? I don't recall hearing of Tesla customers having to go to a facility for software tweaks.

Because they will never need to. Unlike traditional systems that go through long periods of testing and validation they can makes changes and adjustments continually. Lorenfb has no understanding of Tesla systems and just speculates from an anti Tesla point of view. Just take the opposite of what Lorenfb claims and it’s likely true. Tesla systems are unlike traditional auto makers, for now.

Careful, he might beat you with his oscilloscope.

OTA updates are obviously not going to do anything to provide relief from most of the flaws that Talking Cars with Consumer Reports finds with the Model 3, like the high price, and lousy rear seats and door handles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH41yfSR9O8

They also do find a lot to like about the car, though.

edatoakrun said:

OTA updates are obviously not going to do anything to provide relief from most of the flaws that Talking Cars with Consumer Reports finds with the Model 3, like the high price, and lousy rear seats and door handles:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eH41yfSR9O8

They also do find a lot to like about the car, though.

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Because we are not debating that or your opinions. But again you got us. One thing that does need an OTA update is the set of alternative facts Lorenfb (Tesla ambassador and vice CTO) push here and all the Tesla hate trolling that goes on. If you and Lorenfb have so much distaste for the car why not just move on to other threads.

EVDRIVER said:

One thing that does need an OTA update is the set of alternative facts Lorenfb (Tesla ambassador and vice CTO) push here and all the Tesla hate trolling that goes on. If you and Lorenfb have so much distaste for the car why not just move on to other threads.

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It appears that you are shill for Tesla. Is that the case? If not, who are you, e.g. a present or ex-employee of Tesla? You continue to present
unverified data/facts covering a broad range of aspects about Tesla. Who/what are your sources, so that info can be corroborated?
At least what I present with regard to Tesla is based on my experience working in the automotive industry with dealers and independents,
e.g. BMW, M/B, & Porsche for the last 25 years, as a systems consultant in regard to automotive system designs, which is common
general knowledge to most in the automotive industry. Yes, Tesla has developed unique product aspects, but still uses well defined/common
automotive technology. Unless I missed it, you've rarely if ever provided links or quoted sources, e.g. that Tesla has all their suppliers'
systems design data & source code for OTA mods and major firmware updates, right? Then, basically what you post is just hyperbole.

Your typical post is an ad hominem attack! Are you that insecure about Tesla, that you need to personally attack MNL posters when
issues are raised about Tesla that you disagree with? You've basically never had/presented any positive comments about the Leaf.
Given all that, why do you continue to post on MNL, and maybe "why not just move on to other" forums, yourself!

Some the issues that https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/03/07/tesla-model-3-review-runs-well-but-wrinkles-abound-says-edmunds/ points out that Edmunds talks about are mentioned at https://www.edmunds.com/tesla/model-3/2017/long-term-road-test/2017-tesla-model-3-monthly-update-for-january-2018.html.

In the latter, they're suffering from the types of issues that been discussed in the monster "phone as key" thread at https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/phone-as-key-issues.105508/ and some others.

lorenfb said:

EVDRIVER said:

One thing that does need an OTA update is the set of alternative facts Lorenfb (Tesla ambassador and vice CTO) push here and all the Tesla hate trolling that goes on. If you and Lorenfb have so much distaste for the car why not just move on to other threads.

Click to expand...

It appears that you are shill for Tesla. Is that the case? If not, who are you, e.g. a present or ex-employee of Tesla? You continue to present
unverified data/facts covering a broad range of aspects about Tesla. Who/what are your sources, so that info can be corroborated?
At least what I present with regard to Tesla is based on my experience working in the automotive industry with dealers and independents,
e.g. BMW, M/B, & Porsche for the last 25 years, as a systems consultant in regard to automotive system designs, which is common
general knowledge to most in the automotive industry. Yes, Tesla has developed unique product aspects, but still uses well defined/common
automotive technology. Unless I missed it, you've rarely if ever provided links or quoted sources, e.g. that Tesla has all their suppliers'
systems design data & source code for OTA mods and major firmware updates, right? Then, basically what you post is just hyperbole.

Your typical post is an ad hominem attack! Are you that insecure about Tesla, that you need to personally attack MNL posters when
issues are raised about Tesla that you disagree with? You've basically never had/presented any positive comments about the Leaf.
Given all that, why do you continue to post on MNL, and maybe "why not just move on to other" forums, yourself!

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No I have never worked for Tesla nor do I act like a shill for Tesla because I don't go on the LEAF or other forums posting negative articles and false LEAF facts repeatedly. I also don't like many things about Tesla and I am clear about my positions. On the other hand you come to this thread and post anything you can negative, refuse to state if you have a M3 reservation or have even sat in a Tesla, You try every way to prove the car is not what it is and that the company is going to fail. You also post many things about the car that are just false despite your automotive experience with cars that are all 100% different. As far as the technical aspects, any interested person that has a Tesla and has had it serviced and updated could get some of this information. Besides that there are people in the EV community that share technical information on the M3 but it may not be posted all over the internet. I do know people that work at Tesla in various levels and at VERY senior levels, I leave it at that. Although I am privy to much information I can't be posting details or referencing it here. You will see some tech info I have posted here validated this year however If you dig through MNL you will also see I posted the pack replacement cost on MNL a year before it was ever known because I had that info and was not subject to an NDA as I am in some EV manufacturer cases. I have been involved in the EV community for more than 15 years. There is information out there that is very technical but it is not all public and I would not post about things I have not seen first hand. The majority of posts about Tesla that are negative are from people speculating and making those opinions into unvalidated facts. Did you consider that Tesla may have agreements with some parts suppliers to flash firmware? Could it be possible they can do modifications with such permission and take on liability, etc. Regardless every Tesla update looks at every part on the car and checks for it's version and if updates are needed and these updates are done in batches for testing and not to all cars in the wild. My ABS firmware has been changed several times. To say this is not possible based on what other car makers and suppliers do is just an assumption. Most everything Tesla does is non standard and like it or not is redefining the EV industry, that is a fact not an opinion. Please tell me about another EV where all fuses are solid state and where all critical systems are truly fully redundant. The list goes on. If you ask me if Tesla products are leading edge or great I would say yes, if you ask if I think the company is solid financially and no one should be concerned I would say no. Am I blinded by those facts? No but the risks for me are worth taking and I don't see other comparable solutions for me until there are better EVs with similar technology and performance and a national charging network that is affordable and reliable. That seems to be a long way away.

In the meantime I'm surprised Tesla cars don't have more flaws and all the issues on early cars are what people are focusing on and exaggerating. Remember the big 12V battery issue on the M3 that ended up not being one at all and was fixed with a firmware update? Well seems Nissans went on for ever. In perspective the company was a startup not long ago not an established car maker, that seems to never be considered and per many industry leaders they could never produce cars. If Tesla folds you can have a big I told you so party but it does not mean the M3 base is not a profitable car or that the cars are so bug ridden it is going to be the demise. Should Tesla fail down the road we can thank them because if they were not here we would be driving low range conversion compliance cars still.

Oh just ignore him, honestly.

When I got my Kia Soul EV he went on a similar diatribe about how I’m a shill or employee of Kia and even went so far as to correlate my home location with the proximity to Kia’s US offices and how I must be working for them.

He’s goofy.

He also went on endless tangents and prognostications about how Tesla wouldn’t possibly be able to sell 100,000 cars in 2017 for love or money and had his own truly bizarre calculations to back that up.

They sold more than 100,000 cars in 2017. Not a peep.

mtndrew1 said:

Oh just ignore him, honestly. He’s goofy.

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Have a problem focusing on the issues being discussed, or are you only capable of ad hominem attacks too?

mtndrew1 said:

Tesla can remotely flash nearly every part of the car without it ever seeing a mechanic. If you ever watch one of the cars go through its update cycle you’ll hear and see many of the subsystems going through firmware flashing.

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But when one posts laughable comments as above, one usually reverts to their trolling nature.

After finding just a few things to criticize about the 3, greencarreports asks the existential question:

Tesla Model 3 quality is terrible, but will it matter to buyers?

So we've finally had the chance to spend time with a 2018 Tesla Model 3, courtesy of a generous and devoted Green Car Reports reader.

We'll have our first-drive report and a full review of the car within a day or two—but that's not what this article is about.

The build quality of the early Model 3 we tested in late February was, in a word, appalling.

Before we were even able to visit the owner, the car had to go back to the Tesla service center to have the central touchscreen replaced.

You know, the one required to control virtually any aspect of the car except for turn signals, headlights, and wipers?...

As the owner wrote to us:

We took delivery of our Model 3 today. It looked like everything was working OK until we got within about 10 miles of the house. That was when the touchscreen started to malfunction....Nothing like paying $50,000 to be a beta tester...I have found the car twice in the garage, locked, with the stereo blasting at full volume for who knows how long...

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In the end, Tesla replaced the screen and the new unit seemed to function properly. We scheduled our test drive for a couple of weeks later.

During the test itself, two things became clear: The Model 3 works largely as intended, and the build quality was the worst we have seen on any new car from any maker over the last 10 years.

The flaws and defects broke down into two categories: those that affected the functioning of the car or the owner's driving experience, and those that didn't.

The first group included:

The defective touchscreen and all the follow-on effects (above)
Persistent creaks and groans from the console or dash
An intermittent loud buzz from the upper right-hand center door pillar at highway speeds on some road surfaces
A steering vibration (in a car with just 1,000 miles)...

The longer list of assembly defects on our car that early owners seem likely to overlook are a remarkable number of fit and finish issues:

Misaligned body panels
Widely varying gaps between panel edges
Headlights protruding above panels in some places, sunken below them in others, varying side to side
Glovebox door that didn't sit square in its opening
Badly fitted chrome door trim that didn't align from piece to piece
Note that the cheapest Chevy, Honda, Hyundai, or Toyota wouldn’t make it out of the factory with any one of those observable problems, let alone the whole list of them...

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https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1115659_tesla-model-3-quality-is-terrible-but-does-it-matter-to-buyers

Yes many crickets.

EVDRIVER said:

...Remember the big 12V battery issue on the M3 that ended up not being one at all and was fixed with a firmware update? ...

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No, it wasn't fixed, because you can't fix a fundamental design flaw like the 3's with a firmware update.

It was idiotic to design a vehicle that requires an external 12 V source to unlock the the doors, or to even gain access to the 12 volt battery locked away in the frunk, and even more pathetic that access is not always possible even after you find a 12 V source...

Here we go again... Model 3 wont power up

Not even a week after getting my Model 3 back after the drive unit failed...

I'm stuck here at work and can't get in my car. Can't even open the frunk - tried with a 9v and two different sets of jumper cables on a 12v car battery.

I really love my car and Tesla but this is getting tiresome

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https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/here-we-go-again-model-3-wont-power-up.110199/

edatoakrun said:

EVDRIVER said:

...Remember the big 12V battery issue on the M3 that ended up not being one at all and was fixed with a firmware update? ...

Click to expand...

No, it wasn't fixed, because you can't fix a fundamental design flaw like the 3's with a firmware update.

It was idiotic to design a vehicle that requires an external 12 V source to unlock the the doors, or to even gain access to the 12 volt battery locked away in the frunk, and even more pathetic that access is not always possible even after you find a 12 V source...

Here we go again... Model 3 wont power up

Not even a week after getting my Model 3 back after the drive unit failed...

I'm stuck here at work and can't get in my car. Can't even open the frunk - tried with a 9v and two different sets of jumper cables on a 12v car battery.

I really love my car and Tesla but this is getting tiresome

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https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/here-we-go-again-model-3-wont-power-up.110199/

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Yes it was fixed unlike the LEAF. Also be careful what you read, many of these "failures" falsely stated and the I doubt an owner can diagnose a drive failure. But keep trolling the Tesla forum for FUD to post here. Perhaps you can post some of the LEAf and other EV or car maker issues as well. Make a chart, I know who will come out on top.

EVDRIVER said:

Yes it was fixed unlike the LEAF. Also be careful what you read, many of these "failures" falsely stated and the I doubt an owner can diagnose a drive failure. But keep trolling the Tesla forum for FUD to post here. Perhaps you can post some of the LEAf and other EV or car maker issues as well. Make a chart, I know who will come out on top.

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Can i take a 10 day vacation and leave my Model 3 plugged in at home and come home and drive it?

palmermd said:

EVDRIVER said:

Yes it was fixed unlike the LEAF. Also be careful what you read, many of these "failures" falsely stated and the I doubt an owner can diagnose a drive failure. But keep trolling the Tesla forum for FUD to post here. Perhaps you can post some of the LEAf and other EV or car maker issues as well. Make a chart, I know who will come out on top.

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Can i take a 10 day vacation and leave my Model 3 plugged in at home and come home and drive it?

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You can! Though to be fair you might not be able to do the opposite lol. Some Tesla software versions have had significant vampire drain unplugged. Perhaps these have been remedied in recent firmware updates.

mtndrew1 said:

palmermd said:

EVDRIVER said:

Yes it was fixed unlike the LEAF. Also be careful what you read, many of these "failures" falsely stated and the I doubt an owner can diagnose a drive failure. But keep trolling the Tesla forum for FUD to post here. Perhaps you can post some of the LEAf and other EV or car maker issues as well. Make a chart, I know who will come out on top.

Click to expand...

Can i take a 10 day vacation and leave my Model 3 plugged in at home and come home and drive it?

Click to expand...

You can! Though to be fair you might not be able to do the opposite lol. Some Tesla software versions have had significant vampire drain unplugged. Perhaps these have been remedied in recent firmware updates.

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The vampire load is MUCH better on the 3, set it for all power save modes.

My Volts, Soul EV, and Leaf all have literally zero vampire drain. I’ve always been a little perturbed that Teslas have any whatsoever. But so it is.

mtndrew1 said:

My Volts, Soul EV, and Leaf all have literally zero vampire drain. I’ve always been a little perturbed that Teslas have any whatsoever. But so it is.

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I guess if you disconnect the 12v battery on the LEAF....