2016-2017 model year 30 kWh bar losers and capacity losses

IMO, the fact that Nissan later added such a warranty to address a product deficiency in that arena should not be held against them, particularly since they even extended the warranty past its written provisions for some customers.

Click to expand...

I think that the fact that that capacity warranty was essentially court-ordered is very relevant. No brownie points for Nissan there.

Unlinear capacity 60-25%

I’m not sure if this is the right place for my issue, if not please correct me.

I’m driving a 2016 30kWh Leaf in Sweden
Recently I noticed that the battery % (andGIDs)
drops about 3 times faster between 60-25%.
Ie, at 80km/h, travel distance is around 1.5-1.8 km/%, but at battery capacity 60-25%, the travel distance is only 0.5-0.8km/% with same conditions.
I can see difference in SOC (35%) and GIDs%(10).
The difference is also visible in LeafSpy during charge, and is typical beteeen 25-60%.
Could it be due to a bad cell ?

Lost my third bar today at 7,500 miles. 2016 SV, spent its first 5,000 miles in Arizona before I bought it and moved it to Virginia. Dropped its first bar the first time I charged it. So lost 3 bars in 2, 500 miles.

Yikes. Did you get the car hoping to get a free battery, or were you caught unaware of the issue with these packs?

LeftieBiker said:

Yikes. Did you get the car hoping to get a free battery, or were you caught unaware of the issue with these packs?

Click to expand...

That would be the latter--the 1st bar dropping on my first charge pissed me off. But it also netted some consideration from the seller, so net, if I get the battery replaced under warranty, I'll be happy. Either way, I'll have the car for a while.

That's good. IMO, people should buy a 30kwh Leaf only if they have modest (less than 80 mile) range needs. That's pretty ironic when you think about it...

RegGuheert said:

Durandal said:

Or those of us with long memories regarding our 24kWh packs... Mine is about to drop it's 4th bar in about a month, and the warranty expired 3 months ago, with 42,000 miles. If Nissan decides to pay for half or more of the replacement pack, I will replace the pack, upgrade my TCU, and continue with it for a few years, and not write Nissan off as a brand. However, if they tell me to pound sand, I will limp along with my Leaf until I get my Model 3 at the end of this year, then sell the Leaf for a pittance.

Click to expand...

I have a long memory and I remember signing a document at the time I purchased my LEAF specifically stating that the car had no warranty against gradual capacity loss. IMO, the fact that Nissan later added such a warranty to address a product deficiency in that arena should not be held against them, particularly since they even extended the warranty past its written provisions for some customers.

Click to expand...

Well good for you, Nissan Apologist for defending Nissan's flawed design and CONTINUED flawed design as the thing STILL doesn't have active thermal management. Mine had a warranty when I bought it, so I didn't sign any such document.

LeftieBiker said:

That's good. IMO, people should buy a 30kwh Leaf only if they have modest (less than 80 mile) range needs. That's pretty ironic when you think about it...

Click to expand...

The "No Worries Range" for any EV is about half of the EPA range. Somewhat more in milder climates, somewhat less in harsh climates.

Half of 107 miles is 53 miles. Well less than 80 miles.

Weather happens. Detours happen. Batteries degrade, even the best.

No irony intended.

Durandal said:

Well good for you, Nissan Apologist for defending Nissan's flawed design and CONTINUED flawed design as the thing STILL doesn't have active thermal management. Mine had a warranty when I bought it, so I didn't sign any such document.

Click to expand...

Active thermal management didn't prevent Ford Focus Electric from losing capacity.

Durandal said:

Well good for you, Nissan Apologist for defending Nissan's flawed design and CONTINUED flawed design as the thing STILL doesn't have active thermal management.

Click to expand...

Hardly. But I also do not consider the lack of active thermal management to be a "design flaw". The issue is the lack of robustness in the battery. Hopefully Nissan will join others in building batteries that last a long time, but their 30-kWh battery certainly does not give confidence in that regard.

Durandal said:

Mine had a warranty when I bought it, so I didn't sign any such document.

Click to expand...

Of course not, since you got a capacity warranty with your purchase.

LeftieBiker said:

It would make sense to also solicit reports from those who have lost zero bars and have more than 90% or so SOH, in an effort to determine what if any climatic and other conditions these batteries find tolerable.

Click to expand...

Agreed. One sided data is always misleading.


Another thing we need to add is 1 and 2 bar losers because we now have a handful that live in northern tier states with loss many miles before that should have happened including at least 2 in my area.

VAB5 said:

Lost my third bar today at 7,500 miles. 2016 SV, spent its first 5,000 miles in Arizona before I bought it and moved it to Virginia. Dropped its first bar the first time I charged it. So lost 3 bars in 2, 500 miles.

Click to expand...

Likely a BMS reset and venture to guess it spent some time on the lot before being sold which leads me to believe the car lost most of a bar before being driven off the lot.

Well, you will finally know how the car really is when you get your replacement pack.

http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=521852#p521852 has a pointer to a 2017 Leaf S 1 bar down. From searching that guy's posts, he's somewhere in So Cal.

VAB5 said:

But it also netted some consideration from the seller, so net, if I get the battery replaced under warranty, I'll be happy. Either way, I'll have the car for a while.

Click to expand...

*IF* you get the battery replaced? It seems certain that you will qualify for a replacement battery some time this year.

Unless you baby the replacement, you have a good chance of getting a second replacement battery later in the warranty period.

We have some scientists who have been doing analysis on this potential issue in New Zealand. The Nissan Leafs here are imported either from Japan (the majority) or UK. The results are quite interesting and seem to point to increased loss in the 30 kWh batteries. The Flip The Fleet (the name of the group doing EV analysis in NZ) article can be found at http://flipthefleet.org/2018/30-kwh-leafs-soh-loss/ and their science report at https://www.preprints.org/manuscript/201803.0122/v1. The main graph showing results is

The SOH really seems to fall off a cliff at about the one to one and a half year mark. It also looks like an accelerating process, as if maybe destructive waste products are accumulating in the cells, causing something like 'runaway degradation'. Do things like build date or geographic location play a significant roll, at least early in the plummet?

I really wish we knew whether this was going to happen with the 40kwh packs, to put it mildly.

BuckMkII said:

VAB5 said:

But it also netted some consideration from the seller, so net, if I get the battery replaced under warranty, I'll be happy. Either way, I'll have the car for a while.

Click to expand...

*IF* you get the battery replaced? It seems certain that you will qualify for a replacement battery some time this year.

Unless you baby the replacement, you have a good chance of getting a second replacement battery later in the warranty period.

Click to expand...

Ugh--given that, I may bail for top dollar after the replacement!

A great study!

After reading it I think there are two factors at play:

1. The battery chemistry is different.
2. The packaging for the cells was changed (not mentioned in the study).

I noticed on my 2017 Leaf that it takes longer to cool down than on my previous 2013. I have some experience with electronics cooling and the new packaging looks inherently less conducive to heat transfer than the previous packaging.

If the trends in the study are indicative of things to come, Nissan will be replacing lots of batteries and the 40 may show similar degradation. Nissan will have to make some mods to chemistry and/or packaging to avoid future expensive warranty claims.

joeriv said:

A great study!

After reading it I think there are two factors at play:

1. The battery chemistry is different.
2. The packaging for the cells was changed (not mentioned in the study).

Click to expand...

I suggest a third factor to consider.

I think that there might be a problem in the charging and/or balancing algorithm(s). Maybe due to a change in the charger/BMS, maybe due the change in chemistry that requires a slightly different charging and/or balancing algorithm(s).

The study notes that loss goes down with higher mileage, which doesn't make sense for heat. The more you drive, the hotter the batteries, the faster the capacity loss.

Both this study and other things I've heard suggest that cars that are driven a lot are doing better.

joeriv said:

If the trends in the study are indicative of things to come, Nissan will be replacing lots of batteries and the 40 may show similar degradation. Nissan will have to make some mods to chemistry and/or packaging to avoid future expensive warranty claims.

Click to expand...

Yes, Nissan will be replacing a lot of batteries. Hopefully they will find and fix the issue, which might not be chemistry or packaging, but electronics/firmware.

What a great study. I'd like to sign up but it appears they only want vehicles from NZ so they can manage the data by region.

It's great to see actual data even though the results don't bode well for the 30kWh cars. Hopefully Nissan will have a better solution when the time comes for my battery replacement. I'll never hit 100k miles on my car but unless it or I get totaled before 2025 I expect to still be driving it then.