Nissan to Start Sale of LEAF Battery Refurbs in Japan

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IF they take only excellent cells and match them precisely, the resulting pack could be great. People in the two wheeled EV world make such packs all the time, from used laptop cells. It's really a question of how many marginal cells Nissan is willing to pass on using in order to get a high quality refurb pack.
 
LeftieBiker said:
IF they take only excellent cells and match them precisely, the resulting pack could be great. People in the two wheeled EV world make such packs all the time, from used laptop cells. It's really a question of how many marginal cells Nissan is willing to pass on using in order to get a high quality refurb pack.

Yes, I have made many packs myself from used batteries but I would still prefer new.
 
LeftieBiker said:
IF they take only excellent cells and match them precisely, the resulting pack could be great. People in the two wheeled EV world make such packs all the time, from used laptop cells. It's really a question of how many marginal cells Nissan is willing to pass on using in order to get a high quality refurb pack.
I doubt you can extrapolate what works in a e-bicycle to a car; and as I have mentioned the refurb experience in the Prius was really poor.
In any case, the warranty will tell the tale.

By all means though -- Be My Guest.
 
I don't know what you can accomplish with old used cells. My 7 year-old battery has 63% of its original capacity now. The cells are all within 30 mV of each other. That kind of represents the best you can do with used cells. This notion of "replacing the bad cells" never seemed to amount to anything, because that isn't the problem.

It would be a real kick to have a new battery in this car. As the electrochemical Altzheimer's progresses, one learns to cope with the diminished capabilities. Armed with a an always-on Dash Display I can watch the state of charge in real time. And I have done trips I never would have attempted when the car was new. Let's just say I didn't have the experience or courage to push the limits. Now, I look at the gauge, and if it's about 100 GIDs, well, we're good to go. With full third of the battery left, that's 50 GIDs, or what you common folk call "Low Battery Warning". My most recent "all time high" recharge amount was 14 kWh. I don't know what I'd do with 20 kWh. In reality, if I really needed to go distances, $6k for a new battery isn't the end of the world. At $3k for something that was actually close to new capacity, I might not even need a credible excuse to put one in.

Anyway, we're getting a Model 3 next week, maybe I'll like the Tesla better. :lol:
 
I really cant see this refurb thing unless you put new cells into your old battery case that is already matched to your car.

I makes no sense to sort out old cells and go through all the labor to re-install them. Its like taking apart a car engine and replacing the pistons and crankshaft with used junkyard parts.... Yes, it would work, but for how long, and is it worth the labor and effort?
 
SageBrush said:
...
I doubt you can extrapolate what works in a e-bicycle to a car; and as I have mentioned the refurb experience in the Prius was really poor.
In any case, the warranty will tell the tale.

By all means though -- Be My Guest.

Can you please point us to some information on the Prius refurb batteries? There should be enough data on those to give us an idea what to expect. Has it been documented as to what the refurb process is for most of those? My daughter has had a refurb battery in her Prius for about a year and a half (I think), no problems yet, but the cost of that was about 25% of the cost of a new one, not 50% like this one. Thanks.
 
jake14mw said:
SageBrush said:
...
I doubt you can extrapolate what works in a e-bicycle to a car; and as I have mentioned the refurb experience in the Prius was really poor.
In any case, the warranty will tell the tale.

By all means though -- Be My Guest.

Can you please point us to some information on the Prius refurb batteries? There should be enough data on those to give us an idea what to expect. Has it been documented as to what the refurb process is for most of those? My daughter has had a refurb battery in her Prius for about a year and a half (I think), no problems yet, but the cost of that was about 25% of the cost of a new one, not 50% like this one. Thanks.

When our 2002 Prius gave us the dreaded triangle battery warning we happened to be just beyond the warranty coverage (8 years or 100,000 miles, I forgot which). If we had the dealer replace the battery pack with new, together with labor,if I remember correctly, the price was at the high end of $3000 something, close to $4000. Even with new battery pack, the dealers warranty was only one year after installation.

At the time, our Budget was tight so I looked around and found a company that took gen 2 Prius cells from newer cars that had an accident, or purchased on the internet, cleaned them up, balanced them, then installed the newer cells in the cleaned up “refurbished” pack of our 2002. Cost a little over $2000 with a one year warranty.

At the time we just needed the Prius to last at least one more year, but it is still running 3 1/2 (CORRECTION make that 6 1/2 ) years later! :D
We don’t drive it as much now, only 4000-7000 miles a year, but it worked for our needs.

Note: the garage checked each of the newer cells and if the cell didn’t meet certain quality or capacity, they did not use. I image that the quality or capacity requirement for a pure EV pack vs a hybrid pack might be different.
 
powersurge said:
I really cant see this refurb thing unless you put new cells into your old battery case that is already matched to your car.

I makes no sense to sort out old cells and go through all the labor to re-install them. Its like taking apart a car engine and replacing the pistons and crankshaft with used junkyard parts.... Yes, it would work, but for how long, and is it worth the labor and effort?
In this case it only needs to work long enough to get past whatever warranty they're putting on it.
The LEAF battery is a POS when it's new, what does that make a used one?
 
jake14mw said:
SageBrush said:
...
I doubt you can extrapolate what works in a e-bicycle to a car; and as I have mentioned the refurb experience in the Prius was really poor.
In any case, the warranty will tell the tale.

By all means though -- Be My Guest.

Can you please point us to some information on the Prius refurb batteries? There should be enough data on those to give us an idea what to expect. Has it been documented as to what the refurb process is for most of those? My daughter has had a refurb battery in her Prius for about a year and a half (I think), no problems yet, but the cost of that was about 25% of the cost of a new one, not 50% like this one. Thanks.
I cannot think of a source that aggregates the data, but i"ll update this post if one occurs to me.
The PriusChat forums are stuffed with sad refurb stories, but they are scattered. This https://priuschat.com/threads/dorman-battery-experiences.137446/ has a couple informative threads

In GENERAL,
The refurb people would test each module for capacity under load and then make up a pack of similar cells.
Then they would run the pack through a couple of balancing cycles. The protocols got to be quite involved and labor intensive. Imagine an open pack with some 48 odd chargers attached to the modules.

In other cases they would identify the few modules in a pack that were much worse than the rest and replace those with new modules.
 
IMHO it all depends on the warranty. Normally an OEM refurb carries a “like new” warranty. Spending about $3,000 for a one year warranty does not sound like a good deal to me. However if it carries a 5 or 8 year degradation warranty, then this is a game changer.
 
I expect (hope) that when they tear down the packs and test the cells, the bad cells get thrown into the recycle bin, the good but degraded cells get installed in energy storage packs (second life), and the refurbished pack gets new cells for use in our LEAFs. that seems to me the only way this whole thing makes economic sense for anyone.
 
powersurge said:
I really cant see this refurb thing unless you put new cells into your old battery case that is already matched to your car.

I makes no sense to sort out old cells and go through all the labor to re-install them. Its like taking apart a car engine and replacing the pistons and crankshaft with used junkyard parts.... Yes, it would work, but for how long, and is it worth the labor and effort?

The cells are built into modules, and from what I've seen the modules were not made to be disassembled. That means they'd have to manufacture complete modules. By the time you manufacture a full complement of new modules I don't think there is enough cost savings available from using the stamped metal case and assorted cables and cards, to get you down to half-retail considering the labor involved. It seems to me that harvesting the best modules from the salvage flow is the only way to make this work. And why else would they be touting their ability to "innovatively" analyze used batteries?
 
I found the below article on Reuters and pulled out some of the highlights. It sure looks like these will be re bundled cells with about 80% of new capacity. In my situation, it took me 3 years to get to 51Ahr (80%) and almost another 4 years to get to where I am now. So I can pay $2800 for 4 years ($700/yr) or $5000 for 7 years ($714/yr). At about the same cost, having the extra range for a few years is appealing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ive-second-life-to-ev-batteries-idUSKBN1H30DD

The batteries will be produced at the new factory in Namie by reassembling high-performing modules removed from batteries whose overall energy capacity has fallen below 80 percent.

Modules with capacities above 80 percent are assigned for use in replacement Leaf batteries; lesser modules are reassembled and sold as batteries for fork lifts, golf carts, and lower-energy applications such as streetlamps.

Makino said it would be difficult for 4R to completely break down and recycle EV batteries on its own

The plant can process 2,250 battery packs a year, and initially plans to refabricate “a few hundred” units annually, Makino said
 
On one hand, upgrading an old, degraded 24kWh Leaf to 30kWh for $3k sounds like a pretty good deal.

On the other hand, the 30kWh batteries appear to have much worse degradation issues.

screen-shot-2018-03-26-at-2-51-23-pm.jpg
 
FairwoodRed said:
I found the below article on Reuters and pulled out some of the highlights. It sure looks like these will be re bundled cells with about 80% of new capacity. In my situation, it took me 3 years to get to 51Ahr (80%) and almost another 4 years to get to where I am now. So I can pay $2800 for 4 years ($700/yr) or $5000 for 7 years ($714/yr). At about the same cost, having the extra range for a few years is appealing.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...ive-second-life-to-ev-batteries-idUSKBN1H30DD
Thanks for the link!

It seems like a reasonable approach. OTOH, with a car that has range as limited as the MY2011-2015 LEAF, the vehicle is quite a bit more useful with new capacity versus 80% capacity. For my wife's commute, that is the difference between heat and no heat on her commute in the wintertime.
 
I would say if Nissan can guarantee that the refurb packs retain about 95% of new capacity, which equals to about 60AHr, then I wouldn't have any problem buying them at half the cost.
 
Collecting modules that are above 80% (or is it 85% ?) SOH restricts the recyclers to batteries retrieved from pretty new cars totaled in accidents unless they plan to label old modules as good enough via some short acting sleight of hand like over-charging. And even if the former, they will run into the previously mentioned problems of module balancing which was the bane of Prius recyclers.
 
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