Capacity Loss on 2011-2012 LEAFs

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As of this morning 26 March 2018 we lost the 4th bar. We sit at 43.47Ahr, 66.27%SOH and Hx44.14, 57,232 miles. 5309 L1/L2 and 9 DCQC charges.

palmermd said:
As of this morning September 15, 2016 we lost our third bar. We now sit at 47.49Ahr, 72%SOH and Hx 51.78, 48,960 miles 4585 L1/L2 and 3 DCQC charges.

palmermd said:
As of August 1st 2015 we lost our second bar. We now sit at 51.51Ahr, 78%SOH and Hx 60.23%, 37,016 miles, 3245 L1/L2 charges and 0 DCQC charges.

palmermd said:
... As of today, 1st of June 2014 we have 54.91Ahr SOH 83% and Hx 68.63%, 25,382 miles, 1890 L1/L2 charges and 0 DCQC charges. ...




This seemed to take a bit longer, but we are driving less than before. Seems like miles is a larger impact than time. Fortunately, my drive to work is just 8 miles. I never had a regular commute with the car when we were living in Sacramento. I now drive the same route almost every day to and from work. Every day I start the car and have low 60's as a guess for range. I get home every evening and the car is at about mid twenties for remaining range. So a surface street easy drive 16 miles round trip uses 35 to 40 miles of guesstimate. It also reduces from 12 bars to 4-5 bars of capacity (usually 5). It is enough that I can't make the trip twice without charging. But as a work commuter that I own, it works just fine for now. But it will be replaced with a standard range Model 3 once they start producing them. I'm in no hurry, and I have been invited to configure if I wanted the long range pack, but I'll keep waiting.
 
Apologies for the off-topic...

SageBrush said:
NIce information, but regarding the Google Docs chart ...

How do you get a scale on both sides of the graph ? I've wanted that for a long time.

Also, I'm not able to open the interactive link.
Regarding the scale on both sides: In the Chart editor, under the CUSTOMIZE tab and "Chart & axis titles", the Type pulldown has an option of "Right vertical axis title" - that's where to put the title text. The axis itself is in the "Right vertical axis" pulldown under the CUSTOMIZE tab. (Note: I developed the chart using the old Chart Editor, so I have no direct experience with the above. YMMV :? )

Regarding the link: Try this one (not sure why the original went bad, hoping this one will keep working):

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vR0ETOtFT0c_aL4OWA7e9TP3TfOpb7hedfemyyh3oE7KUQ8JA1zFBvsXalA12A87vGNnVmqetQqGt9v/pubchart?oid=573318228&format=interactive
 
RegGuheert on August 28 said:
Let's see if the rate of capacity loss is increasing or decreasing:

1st Bar: 4/6/2015 - 24,496 miles - 54.01 Ah
2nd Bar: 6/11/2016 - 33,691 miles - 51.24 Ah
3rd Bar: 8/25/2017 - 46,100 miles - 47.47 Ah

1st-2nd Bar: 431 days/bar - 9,195 miles/bar - 2.77 Ah/bar = 155 days/Ah = 3319 miles/Ah
2nd-3rd Bar: 440 days/bar - 12,409 miles/bar - 3.77 Ah/bar = 116 days/Ah = 3291 miles/Ah
We haven't dropped our ninth bar, yet, but I thought I would take a look at what has happened over the last eight months. Here is the latest reading:

Date: May 3, 2018
ODO: 54,629 miles
AHr: 46.02 Ah
SOH: 70.15%
Hx: 48.18%

1st-2nd Bar: 431 days/bar - 9,195 miles/bar - 2.77 Ah/bar = 155 days/Ah = 3319 miles/Ah
2nd-3rd Bar: 440 days/bar - 12,409 miles/bar - 3.77 Ah/bar = 116 days/Ah = 3291 miles/Ah
3rd Bar-Now: ?? days/bar - ?? miles/bar - ?? Ah/bar = 171 days/Ah = 5882 miles/Ah

Of course it is normal to lose less capacity over the winter than over the summer. As such, I expect these numbers to turn completely around now that it has gotten hot. We'll see how things look when that next bar drops.

With the current battery conditions and now that the weather has gotten warm, my wife returns home from her 49-mile commute with about 35% SOC in the battery. Come next winter, she will have more days when she takes the hybrid rather than the LEAF to make her commute -- maybe 30 or more.
 
Hello,
Well the day finally came. 6 years, 5 months, 21 days and 70111 miles.
Lost the 3rd Batt Bar today (currently 9 bars).

I'll add the Batt stats to this post tomorrow after it has fully charged. :?
 
Please don't start new threads for individual capacity bars losses. Can you imagine if everyone here on MNL started a new thread for each capacity bar they lose?

Prior to the 30 kWh software update, we'd already has over 17 4 bar losers on the 30 kWh cars: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=23606&p=525968#p525968.

Hopefully the mods merge this into http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=8802.
 
Like RegGuheert I feel like I'm closing in on that 4th bar. I have a feeling it will be December of this year.

Past stats, pulled from my signature in case I change it in the future:

Purchased Certified Pre-Owned February 2015, 36,033 miles
First Bar lost: 39,879 miles, July 2015.
Second: 50,225 & 8/16.
Third: 62,960, 11/17.

Latest stats:
Date: August 2, 2018
ODO: 69,411 miles
AHr: 45.28 Ah
SOH: 69.02%
Hx: 60.86%

Sporting Milestar MS932 tires with ~ 20,000 miles of wear (used as summer tires since purchase) and averaging ~ 4.8 miles/kWh in the summer, 5.0 in Spring and Fall. Closer to 3.7 in winter tires Oct-March.

The car is racking up fewer miles now that my husband has his own EV, so that 4th bar miiiiiiiiiight stretch to March. The battery is losing SOH a little faster than the Battery Aging Model for Boston, but then again I'm 40 minutes in from the coast and there's no shade at my office. My car is baking on the blacktop and today is 93F with a heat index of 101F. The car was manufactured 6 years 8 months ago and the Battery Aging Model estimates 70% SOH at 7.8 years.
 
RelaxedGal said:
The battery is losing SOH a little faster than the Battery Aging Model for Boston, but then again I'm 40 minutes in from the coast and there's no shade at my office. My car is baking on the blacktop and today is 93F with a heat index of 101F. The car was manufactured 6 years 8 months ago and the Battery Aging Model estimates 70% SOH at 7.8 years.

An amazing battery aging report by the "early adopters". When was this last updated? I may have missed it, but the statement about "recent" and "2013" indicates that not too much information on the "Lizard" has been included?

Also, LeafSpy Pro monitors remaining energy in both kWhs and GIDs - are the comments on GIDs still applicable when determining range? I've assumed (guess what that means) that GIDs are the more accurate representation.
 
^^^^
Umm, we do have a thread for "lizard" pack stats/capacity loss at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532.

You no longer have the crappy battery that came w/Leafs built before 4/2013.

Also, can you update your location info via your user name in the upper right > User Control Panel > Profile tab? That way, we don't need to ask in future posts/threads or do sleuthing to deduce it. I have no idea where you are.
 
Marktm said:
RelaxedGal said:
The battery is losing SOH a little faster than the Battery Aging Model for Boston, but then again I'm 40 minutes in from the coast and there's no shade at my office. My car is baking on the blacktop and today is 93F with a heat index of 101F. The car was manufactured 6 years 8 months ago and the Battery Aging Model estimates 70% SOH at 7.8 years.

An amazing battery aging report by the "early adopters". When was this last updated? I may have missed it, but the statement about "recent" and "2013" indicates that not too much information on the "Lizard" has been included?
I was not involved in authoring the "aging model" but it originally covered the only known battery revision at the time: whatever was in '11 and '12 Leafs during the whole Phoenix/hot climate capacity loss fiasco: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?t=9694. Turbo3 (he lives a few miles from me) and I did loan some equipment to Surfingslovak for him to bring w/him to Phoenix to conduct Tony's range test (results at https://web.archive.org/web/20160113132627/http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326).

https://web.archive.org/web/20140714232730/http://electricvehiclewiki.com:80/Battery_Capacity_Loss (July 14, 2014) seems to be as far back as the history goes of that page, at least at archive.org. Not sure if it was hosted elsewhere before and if earlier copies exist.

It is not clear to me whether the model covers the better batteries found in Leafs built 4/2013 thru model year '14. Probably not. We didn't know those were better until probably ~2 years after 4/2013. And, 4/2013 is a good educated guess as to when the switch happened. It seems Nissan quietly made a switch as it was never announced and AFAIK, never acknowledged either.

The copy of that page from July 14, 2014 most definitely couldn't cover the "lizard" packs which we'd just learned of on June 27, 2014: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168. It generally takes at least 2 hot summers for us to tell how a pack is holding up. BBrockman alluded to a "hot battery" (as some have termed it) being in testing in Aug 2013: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=320754#p320754. Presumably, that became the "lizard" battery.

BTW, Leftiebiker coined a bunch of nicknames for some of the pack revisions: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=533420#p533420. I'm not sure if we ever got confirmation that the newly developed cell at https://www.nec.com/en/global/techrep/journal/g12/n01/pdf/120112.pdf became either the "wolf pack" or the "lizard pack". One would guess that lessons learned from that were incorporated into some packs that went out to customers.
 
Appreciate the detailed response - and the reminder about my location - Thought I had taken care of that some time ago.

I am on my second summer of the "Lizard" replacement pack - I'll post the updated curve later this summer on the Lizard thread - however it does appear that the rather large uptick in ahrs during early summer is heading back down.
 
Marktm said:
The latest battery report on my replacement "Lizard" battery. It does seem the range is taking a nosedive recently - I'm going to have to watch closely.
Compared to my 5 year old battery, yours is quite unbalanced, to say nothing about cell pair 75/76.
Isn't there a Nissan set limit for a weak cell pair that invokes the battery warranty (not degradation) ?
 
SageBrush said:
Marktm said:
The latest battery report on my replacement "Lizard" battery. It does seem the range is taking a nosedive recently - I'm going to have to watch closely.
Compared to my 5 year old battery, yours is quite unbalanced, to say nothing about cell pair 75/76.
Isn't there a Nissan set limit for a weak cell pair that invokes the battery warranty (not degradation) ?


This topic covers weak cells and testing to determine a warranty based fix http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=17676. Be sure to read Regs posts on cell replacements - makes some good points. There is a forum member that had such weak cells that seems to have significantly reduced range.

So far, no DTC's have been registered.
 
CVLI test
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/download/file.php?id=1107&mode=view

Discharge battery to two capacity bars

A = pack voltage
B = maximum cell voltage in mv

Test value = (2.5*A - 0.144*B) / 96

---------
I suspect that LeafSpy is flagging the cells that fail this test.
The manual (albeit from 2011) says that the test identifies modules that have to be replaced in the absence of a DTC.
 
Marktm said:
Has anyone had success with cell replacements based on LeafSpy's identification?
Almost assuredly not.

The point here would be for a customer to have the confidence to authorize a CVLI test at the dealership. My understanding is that a battery found eligible for a warranty claim transfers the diagnostic charges to Nissan.
 
SageBrush said:
Marktm said:
Has anyone had success with cell replacements based on LeafSpy's identification?
Almost assuredly not.

The point here would be for a customer to have the confidence to authorize a CVLI test at the dealership. My understanding is that a battery found eligible for a warranty claim transfers the diagnostic charges to Nissan.
I seriously doubt that Marktm can qualify for (or needs) cell replacement. The reason is that the CVLI test calculation should be done when the average cell voltage is 3.712 V (about 356 V for the pack) and Marktm's pack is way below that point in the picture he posted. It should be expected that ANY pack will get unbalanced at 5% SOC, even one that it is still well-balanced at 20% SOC.

FWIW, in the wintertime my pack capacity is always limited by cell-pair #37, but I see no such behavior during the rest of the year. It's a bit frustrating to me since the wintertime is when the capacity is already lower and this cell-pair further reduces the range of our car. But clearly the behavior tells the story that the capacity is roughly the same as the other cell-pairs but that the resistance is worse.
 
RegGuheert said:
I seriously doubt that Marktm can qualify for (or needs) cell replacement. The reason is that the CVLI test calculation should be done when the average cell voltage is 3.712 V (about 356 V for the pack) and Marktm's pack is way below that point in the picture he posted.
As I noted, the test should be performed at ~ 2 bars capacity remaining per the Nissan instructions.

I make no predictions about Marktm's pack. My post was to clarify two points:
A bad cell pair may be covered until the Nissan battery warranty unrelated to overall degradation
LeafSpy lets us test in the same way that Nissan will test with their "CVLI" test
 
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