LEAF 2018 151 Mile Range Mystery

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Will someone please try to explain to "SageBrush" (and others) how the EPA range and efficiency numbers are actually determined?

Maybe that will solve this great mystery...

SageBrush said:
...The combined EPA city/highway efficiency result for both the 30 kWh and 40 kWh models is 301 Wh per mile.
In your preferred units, 3.32 miles per kWh...

The EPA does its testing as follows:
The car is charged to full;
Driven on the test cycles until it stops;
then the kWh at the meter to charge it to full is measured.
The distance driven divided by the energy (kWh) at the meter consumed, multiplied by 33.7 gives the MPGe...
See MY 2017 LEAF application for EPA certification, city and highway cycle range and kWh recharge accepted:

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807
Charge Depleting Range (Actual miles) 166.41

Recharge Event Energy (kiloWatt-hours) 31.7807
Charge Depleting Range (Actual miles) 136.408
https://iaspub.epa.gov/otaqpub/display_file.jsp?docid=38806&flag=1
 
The interesting point here is that Nissan added unlabeled and unpromoted kWh capacity in order to reach a range target for marketing reasons. Perhaps it is related to anticipated distance between QC stations. If they had continued their old ways, the 40 kWh Model would have had about 38 kWh usable and a range of 38*107/28 ~ 145 miles. As it stands usable is quite close to 40 kWh.

Personally, I would have preferred that they kept the extra kWh (and more) in reserve to be used for degradation. The 150 mile range is likely to drop to ~ 120 miles for US consumers overall in 3 years if the battery follows its brethren. Not that I put it past Nissan to build an even POORER pack in terms of degradation.
 
Again, all EPA, Nissan, or "expert" range estimates are advertising numbers for uninformed people to "estimate" the capability of a car. We are Leaf owners and are the REAL experts who use and know the car daily... So those EPA estimates can go out the window in my view. Range of the Leaf and battery capacities are only physics, and do not change just because there are different model years. All that regeneration stuff from one pedal driving may be nice, but would not affect range more than about 5% max.

As I mentioned in a previous post, The advertised ranges give numbers (in miles) of range..... This is Assuming that the battery is worn down to 0% capacity... Which would be abusing the battery with every use... Not Real World..

My estimate of the range, with our knowledge of the Leaf is.. From 40 KWHs, the battery would only have about 37KWH available for use for driving range. If you always recharge at the low end of safety (20% charge), then you only have (37kwh X 0.80) 29.6 KWH for driving use. (I usually charge between 35-40% max.)

So, driving conservatively (4.0-4.5 miles/ KW) you would REALISTICALLY get 118.4 - 133.2 miles of COMFORTABLE range... Also, this estimate would be even more REALISTIC with the Leaf having a larger motor, which people would love to push harder, using more KWHs. I am happy with that mileage range, however, I may wait for the 60 KWH Leaf. You may not agree with my "professional scientific analysis", but If I am right (as we will see when the 2018 Leafs come out), then you guys owe me a cup of coffee.. :p
 
SageBrush said:
The EPA range calculation is IIRC based on 55% city, 45% highway driving.
Since the LEAF 2018 is within 1 MPGe in both city and highway and has the same combined MPGe compared to the 30 kWh Model from 2017,

And the 30 kWh LEAF is rated at 107 miles EPA range,
We should expect the 40 kWh Model to have (4/3)*107 = 142.6 miles of range, yet it is rated for 151 miles.
The extra 8.4 miles is close to 3 kWh.
You are correct that if the MPGe is basically the same for the two cars, there is an apparent discrepancy between the ratio of the EPA ranges (151/107 = 1.41) and the ratio of the nominal capacities (40/30 = 1.33). However, there are a couple explanations that you haven't considered (or perhaps I missed them in this thread):

1) The usable battery capacity of the vehicle is not the same as the nominal capacity. So if the 30 kWh vehicle has 27 kWh usable, the ratio of 1.41 would mean that the 40 kWh vehicle has 38 kWh usable.

2) While less likely, since MPGe is based on wall to wheels, there could be an effect based on charger efficiency. E.g. the 2018 could be more aerodynamic (higher mi/kWh at the battery level) but have a less efficient charger (make the MPGe the same).

Cheers, Wayne
 
wwhitney said:
SageBrush said:
The EPA range calculation is IIRC based on 55% city, 45% highway driving.
Since the LEAF 2018 is within 1 MPGe in both city and highway and has the same combined MPGe compared to the 30 kWh Model from 2017,

And the 30 kWh LEAF is rated at 107 miles EPA range,
We should expect the 40 kWh Model to have (4/3)*107 = 142.6 miles of range, yet it is rated for 151 miles.
The extra 8.4 miles is close to 3 kWh.
You are correct that if the MPGe is basically the same for the two cars, there is an apparent discrepancy between the ratio of the EPA ranges (151/107 = 1.41) and the ratio of the nominal capacities (40/30 = 1.33). However, there are a couple explanations that you haven't considered (or perhaps I missed them in this thread):

1) The usable battery capacity of the vehicle is not the same as the nominal capacity. So if the 30 kWh vehicle has 27 kWh usable, the ratio of 1.41 would mean that the 40 kWh vehicle has 38 kWh usable.

Cheers, Wayne
This is my conclusion as well: the ratio between the models of usable capacity is wider than the model label implies.
My arithmetic is 3 posts earlier.
 
powersurge said:
...As I mentioned in a previous post, The advertised ranges give numbers (in miles) of range..... This is Assuming that the battery is worn down to 0% capacity... Which would be abusing the battery with every use... Not Real World...

It's meant to allow comparisons, not to describe "real world" use-cases. An ICE should not be run down to empty on a regular basis either, FWIW.
 
Nubo said:
powersurge said:
...As I mentioned in a previous post, The advertised ranges give numbers (in miles) of range..... This is Assuming that the battery is worn down to 0% capacity... Which would be abusing the battery with every use... Not Real World...

It's meant to allow comparisons, not to describe "real world" use-cases. An ICE should not be run down to empty on a regular basis either, FWIW.

OK I will stop...
 
SageBrush said:
This is my conclusion as well: the ratio between the models of usable capacity is wider than the model label implies.
Well, I do point out an alternative possible explanation, but I agree the above statement is more likely.

However, you earlier said "the interesting point here is that Nissan added unlabeled and unpromoted kWh capacity in order to reach a range target for marketing reasons." That statement I think is going too far given the data. For example, another scenario that provides the requisite 1.41 ratio of usable capacity is that both the 30 kWh and 40 kWh nominal capacities have a usable capacity 5 kWh smaller than nominal.

Cheers, Wayne
 
I expected based on this forum and knowing my driving style i would get about 130 miles safely in my 2018 leaf.

Yesterday i did a 180 miles round trip with 2 stops at a supercharger. Mostly hwy. temp 45 to 50 deg F

At 40 miles i supercharged charged to 90%..... thinking i had more than enough for part two.

I then had a 100 miles segment to destination and get back to the supercharger on opposite side of hwy. Hwy driving at speed limit(70mph). Pro pilot turned on. No heating. Minimal traffic. On second half of trip i had to slow down, get behind a 18 wheeler in slow lane to make it back to supercharger and have enough juice to find a second charger if the intended one was really down as mentioned on plugshare app. I just made it. 12% left. Charger was working...

So realistic range driving at hwy speed limit, about 100 to 110 miles from 100%. Without heating.

When I started superchaging to get on leg 3 home, i watched the temperature rising rapidly as it charged from 10%. By the time it got to 50%, the battery meter was 3/4 way to the red line. Good thing I only need another 40 miles.

Going forward all my calculations will be based on a range of a 100 miles so that i can travel at speed limit and use climate control.

In the dead of winter.... 80 miles?
:oops:
 
Jollermd said:
I expected based on this forum and knowing my driving style i would get about 130 miles safely in my 2018 leaf.

Yesterday i did a 180 miles round trip with 2 stops at a supercharger. Mostly hwy. temp 45 to 50 deg F

At 40 miles i supercharged charged to 90%..... thinking i had more than enough for part two.

I then had a 100 miles segment to destination and get back to the supercharger on opposite side of hwy. Hwy driving at speed limit(70mph). Pro pilot turned on. No heating. Minimal traffic. On second half of trip i had to slow down, get behind a 18 wheeler in slow lane to make it back to supercharger and have enough juice to find a second charger if the intended one was really down as mentioned on plugshare app. I just made it. 12% left. Charger was working...

So realistic range driving at hwy speed limit, about 100 to 110 miles from 100%. Without heating.

When I started superchaging to get on leg 3 home, i watched the temperature rising rapidly as it charged from 10%. By the time it got to 50%, the battery meter was 3/4 way to the red line. Good thing I only need another 40 miles.

Going forward all my calculations will be based on a range of a 100 miles so that i can travel at speed limit and use climate control.

In the dead of winter.... 80 miles?
:oops:


Good morning and happy waster. So I’m missing something here. You are talking about a leaf but then you mention stopping at Superchargers. How does that work. Is there some new funky adapter out there that allows connecting a leaf to Superchargers???

Cheers.

John.
 
I'm guessing OP means QC as in a QC charger is super fast?
And before my 24kw Leaf lost a bar I figured roughly .75 the range for hwy speeds(65-70) and moderate heat use(thermostat set to 75 but fan speed of only 1 or 2) and in much colder weather and maybe even snowing and again heat use, .625 the stated range.
In the case of a 150 mile range Leaf that would equate to ~112 miles and 94 miles.
80 miles would be overly pessimistic but possible with a degraded battery :(
The stated ranges are best-case scenarios; lower than posted hwy speeds, no headwinds, flat terrain, 70 degree weather, etc. as with most ICE vehicles, actual MPG will be lower and in ICE vehicles city mpg tends to be quite a bit lower than EPA, I'm generally able to make hwy EPA, at least in the summer.
 
Aero drag on a LEAF at 70 mph is about 40% higher than if you were going 60 mph. Slow down a bit if you want to get closer to that 151 miles rated range.
 
alozzy said:
Aero drag on a LEAF at 70 mph is about 40% higher than if you were going 60 mph. Slow down a bit if you want to get closer to that 151 miles rated range.

Yepir. Where we live in the Okanagan valley even 100 km/h zones are few and far between. 180 km range on a two year old 30 Kw leaf isn’t even a stretch. But we spend a lot of time at 70 km/h. Takes like 45 minutes to go from Vernon to Kelowna and it’s 60 km away. Nice views though. Meh.
 
alozzy said:
Aero drag on a LEAF at 70 mph is about 40% higher than if you were going 60 mph. Slow down a bit if you want to get closer to that 151 miles rated range.

Good advice! To achieve my desired range with my Leaf now at 50 Ahrs (@ 62K miles), my maximum speed very rarely exceeds 50-55 MPH.
My range is further limited by my not letting the battery Ahrs fall below 18 Ahrs before charging. That and rarely having the QC exceed 80%
may have somewhat reduced the battery's degradation.
 
Jollermd said:
I expected based on this forum and knowing my driving style i would get about 130 miles safely in my 2018 leaf.

Yesterday i did a 180 miles round trip with 2 stops at a supercharger. Mostly hwy. temp 45 to 50 deg F

At 40 miles i supercharged charged to 90%..... thinking i had more than enough for part two.

I then had a 100 miles segment to destination and get back to the supercharger on opposite side of hwy. Hwy driving at speed limit(70mph). Pro pilot turned on. No heating. Minimal traffic. On second half of trip i had to slow down, get behind a 18 wheeler in slow lane to make it back to supercharger and have enough juice to find a second charger if the intended one was really down as mentioned on plugshare app. I just made it. 12% left. Charger was working...

So realistic range driving at hwy speed limit, about 100 to 110 miles from 100%. Without heating.

When I started superchaging to get on leg 3 home, i watched the temperature rising rapidly as it charged from 10%. By the time it got to 50%, the battery meter was 3/4 way to the red line. Good thing I only need another 40 miles.

Going forward all my calculations will be based on a range of a 100 miles so that i can travel at speed limit and use climate control.

In the dead of winter.... 80 miles?
:oops:

with those parameters, I would cut it down to 50 miles in Winter.
 
Jollermd said:
Yesterday i did a 180 miles round trip with 2 stops at a supercharger. Mostly hwy. temp 45 to 50 deg F

At 40 miles i supercharged charged to 90%..... thinking i had more than enough for part two.

I then had a 100 miles segment to destination and get back to the supercharger on opposite side of hwy. Hwy driving at speed limit(70mph). Pro pilot turned on. No heating. Minimal traffic. On second half of trip i had to slow down, get behind a 18 wheeler in slow lane to make it back to supercharger and have enough juice to find a second charger if the intended one was really down as mentioned on plugshare app. I just made it. 12% left. Charger was working...

So realistic range driving at hwy speed limit, about 100 to 110 miles from 100%. Without heating.

When I started superchaging to get on leg 3 home...:
Please stop using the the term "supercharger" or "supercharging" and what your Leaf connected to. Leaf is NOT compatible with "superchargers". Perpetuating the incorrect usage of that term can cause confusion esp. amongst newbies and incorrectly set expectations.

In the US, there are 3 incompatible DC (mostly fast) charging standards:
1) Tesla Supercharger (https://www.tesla.com/supercharger) - they use their North American connector
2) CHAdeMO (http://www.chademo.com) - Leaf can come with an optional CHAdEMO inlet
3) SAE Combo aka Combo1 flavor of CCS - visual aid at https://greentransportation.info/ev-charging/range-confidence/chap8-tech/ev-dc-fast-charging-standards-chademo-ccs-sae-combo-tesla-supercharger-etc.html under "DC Fast charging standards – CHAdeMO, CCS, Supercharger, China"

Leaf is NOT compatible with #1 nor #3. Tesla outside the US (e.g. Europe) also uses a different connector for Supercharging than in North America.
 
jjeff said:
I'm guessing OP means QC as in a QC charger is super fast?
And before my 24kw Leaf lost a bar I figured roughly .75 the range for hwy speeds(65-70) and moderate heat use(thermostat set to 75 but fan speed of only 1 or 2) and in much colder weather and maybe even snowing and again heat use, .625 the stated range.
In the case of a 150 mile range Leaf that would equate to ~112 miles and 94 miles.
80 miles would be overly pessimistic but possible with a degraded battery :(
The stated ranges are best-case scenarios; lower than posted hwy speeds, no headwinds, flat terrain, 70 degree weather, etc. as with most ICE vehicles, actual MPG will be lower and in ICE vehicles city mpg tends to be quite a bit lower than EPA, I'm generally able to make hwy EPA, at least in the summer.

Very reasonable fudge factors. Just remember to multiply them by the actual capacity of the battery, which will drop as the battery degrades.
 
Battery capacity in Amp Hours or Watt Hours always depends on the rate compared to the total capacity.

If you discharge a battery to 10 % in 10 minutes
you can withdraw less total energy than if you do it over 2 days.

This is because of internal heating in the battery.

with a significant increase in capacity.. comes a modest increase in efficiency ( less heat)
when the discharge rate remains the same .

dats why you get a few more miles
 
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