Tesla's autopilot, on the road

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lorenfb said:
RegGuheert said:
[One question: Since the Tegra (X1?) processor doesn't not have a "deep-learning accelerator" like is found on the upcoming Xavier processor, are the neural networks in the Tesla Autopilot all implemented in the GPU?
The answer is yes given the extensive processor demands, i.e. the enormity of data, of the neural network system being implemented by Tesla for AP without using LIDAR. Tesla most likely will switch to the later Nvidia processor when available as system demands approach AP 5. The Nvidia stock was a great buy at about $80 -$90 (now $245) when Tesla switched from Mobileye.
Tesla will also likely switch to an neural processing unit (NPU) at some point. Tesla is developing their own and there are existing systems out there like tensor processing unit (TPU). These are said to be on the order of 10X better than GPUs for neural processing.
 
DanCar said:
lorenfb said:
RegGuheert said:
[One question: Since the Tegra (X1?) processor doesn't not have a "deep-learning accelerator" like is found on the upcoming Xavier processor, are the neural networks in the Tesla Autopilot all implemented in the GPU?
The answer is yes given the extensive processor demands, i.e. the enormity of data, of the neural network system being implemented by Tesla for AP without using LIDAR. Tesla most likely will switch to the later Nvidia processor when available as system demands approach AP 5. The Nvidia stock was a great buy at about $80 -$90 (now $245) when Tesla switched from Mobileye.
Tesla will also likely switch to an neural processing unit (NPU) at some point. Tesla is developing their own and there are existing systems out there like tensor processing unit (TPU). These are said to be on the order of 10X better than GPUs for neural processing.
I'm pretty sure an NPU is the same thing as the "deep-learning accelerator" that is included on the Xavier processor I mentioned above.

For reference, here is a post where I discussed the features of the new Xavier processor. In the link provided there the following claim is made:
GreenCarCongress said:
Pegasus is built on two Xavier SoCs and two next-generation NVIDIA GPUs. Customers will get the first samples of Pegasus with its 320 trillion operations per second of processing performance in mid-2018.
 
Might find this article benchmarking cloud TPUs and GPUs interesting: https://blog.riseml.com/benchmarking-googles-new-tpuv2-121c03b71384

The cloud nVidia V100 GPUs cost $8K each and a server with eight of them costs $150k and the TPUs are significantly faster. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/05/nvidia-tesla-v100-gpu-details/
 
DanCar said:
Might find this article benchmarking cloud TPUs and GPUs interesting: https://blog.riseml.com/benchmarking-googles-new-tpuv2-121c03b71384

The cloud nVidia V100 GPUs cost $8K each and a server with eight of them costs $150k and the TPUs are significantly faster. https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2017/05/nvidia-tesla-v100-gpu-details/
Interesting. According to the article, four of Google's TPUv2 chips only provide 56% of the performance of the NVidia solution I mentioned immediately above your post:
RiseML said:
Jeff Dean’s slides, each Cloud TPU device consists of four “TPUv2 Chips”. Each chip has 16GB of memory with two cores, each with two matrix multiplication units. Together, the two cores provide 45 TFLOPs, totalling 180 TFLOPs and 64GB of memory for the whole TPU device.
 
RegGuheert said:
Interestingly, it appears that Tesla has signed with AMD to develop an AI chip:
CNBC said:
Tesla is working with AMD to refine its new chip, which will likely reduce its reliance on Nvidia.

Hopefully, that will improve AMD's long term market position, but as yet their stock price ($12 - $14) has been lackluster compared to Intel's.
Have to remember when AMD was sued by Intel in 1990 over copyrights for using the 80C287's (math coprocessor) actual instruction code.
The only potentially significant processor ever developed by AMD was the 29000 bipolar processor chip set, and it died as new
design-ins went to Intel with the i960 processor.
 
Tesla Driver Who Travelled With His Feet Out of the Window While on Autopilot Avoids Ticket
https://www.yahoo.com/news/tesla-driver-travelled-feet-window-122101566.html
Speaking to Jalopnik, a Los Angeles County spokesperson confirmed on Thursday that the ticket was scrapped by the court, but also said the decision had nothing to do with Mourad’s evidence surrounding the autopilot feature. “The reason the ticket was dismissed was because the officer didn’t show up.”
https://theblast.com/tesla-driver-auto-pilot-ticket-dismissed/ has a brief video clip.
 
Now that Tesla has confirmed that last week's fatal model X crash was due to autopilot error, this is probably the best thread to discuss the incident.

IMO, the biggest news is that Tesla has acknowledged that the Tesla left its lane, and proceeded toward the fatal encounter with the concrete lane divider, while under control of the AP.

AFAIK, as reported by TSLA, all previous autopilot crashes (at least all those with fatalities) occurred with undetected vehicles or objects in the vehicle's intended lane of travel.

Tesla says crashed vehicle had been on autopilot prior to accident

LOS GATOS, California (Reuters) - Tesla Inc (TSLA.O) said on Friday that a Tesla Model X involved a fatal crash in California last week had activated its Autopilot system, raising new questions about the semi-autonomous system that handles some driving tasks.

Tesla also said vehicle logs from the accident showed no action had been taken by the driver soon before the crash and that he had received earlier warnings to put his hands on the wheel.

“The driver had about five seconds and 150 meters of unobstructed view of the concrete divider with the crushed crash attenuator, but the vehicle logs show that no action was taken,” Tesla said.

The statement did not say why the Autopilot system apparently did not detect the concrete divider.

The fatal crash and vehicle fire of the Tesla near Mountain View, California, involved two other cars and delayed traffic for hours. The 38-year-old Tesla driver died at a nearby hospital shortly after the crash.

The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, which launched an investigation into the crash earlier this week, did not immediately comment late Friday. The National Transportation Safety Board is also investigating the fatal crash.

Autopilot allows drivers to take their hands off the wheel for extended periods under certain conditions. Tesla requires users to agree to keep their hands on the wheel “at all times” before they can use autopilot, but users routinely tout the fact they can use the system to drive hands-free...
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-tesla-crash/tesla-says-crashed-vehicle-had-been-on-autopilot-prior-to-accident-idUSKBN1H7023

TSLA's most recent account:

https://www.tesla.com/blog/update-last-week%E2%80%99s-accident
 
edatoakrun said:
Autopilot error leading to the latest fatality (apparently) replicated at a different location:
Looks like it's flashing telling the driver to take over control... and they don't. Autopilot is a hands on system.
 
jlv said:
edatoakrun said:
Autopilot error leading to the latest fatality (apparently) replicated at a different location:
Looks like it's flashing telling the driver to take over control... and they don't. Autopilot is a hands on system.



Exactly, bottom line is hands are supposed to be on the wheel. the waring says you took them off the wheel. There was no error in this video.
 
EVDRIVER said:
jlv said:
edatoakrun said:
Autopilot error leading to the latest fatality (apparently) replicated at a different location:
Looks like it's flashing telling the driver to take over control... and they don't. Autopilot is a hands on system.



Exactly, bottom line is hands are supposed to be on the wheel. the waring says you took them off the wheel. There was no error in this video.

The error lies in the Level3 premise.
 
edatoakrun said:
EVDRIVER said:
... hands are supposed to be on the wheel. the waring (sic) says you took them off the wheel. There was no error in this video.

So you are stating TSLA's intended punishment for disobedience of the autopilot is death...?

What a ridiculous statement but expected. Clearly there are many factors involved here and lots of FUD and speculation. Besides your repeated Tesla trolling here it is also very curious that the family reportedly sated the driver had repeatedly complained about issues at that spot before with AP and he then uses the autopilot knowing this, and on top of that uses it as NOT intended and with his hands off the wheel further ignoring the second waring? What if the person fell asleep at the wheel? Clearly they were not paying attention to a "known" issue area as reported.

What happens if you let go of the wheel on Nissan Pro Pilot and don't grab the wheel again and crash? Would that be the intended consequence for disobedience? Would the Nissan take over and drive you to safety? Or do only Nissan's disclaimers and warnings apply to common sense driving. When I think out the other AP cases and circumstances for blame it raises many questions.

That video also means nothing and proves nothing about this situation. The logs do give many facts to the situation as they have in past cases.


From the manual:

Warning: Autosteer is a hands-on feature.
You must keep your hands on the steering
wheel at all times.

Warning: Autosteer is intended for use
only on highways and limited-access
roads with a fully attentive driver. When
using Autosteer, hold the steering wheel
and be mindful of road conditions
and
surrounding traffic. Do not use Autosteer
on city streets or in areas where bicyclists
or pedestrians may be present. Never
depend on Autosteer to determine an
appropriate driving path.
Always be
prepared to take immediate action.
Failure to follow these instructions could
cause serious property damage, injury or
death.


Also every time it is engaged it warns to have the hands on the wheel at all times.
 
Via ABG:
Tesla Model 3 Autopilot: The good, the bad, and the ugly
Real problems obscure some of the promise of a compelling system
https://www.autoblog.com/2018/04/02/tesla-model-3-autopilot-review-issues/

. . . Autopilot is assisted driving at best — a tool to help the human operator to drive better with less effort. In that capacity, Autopilot should be the safest, easiest tool to use it can possibly be. In this iteration, it fails. There's simply too much guesswork involved, and too little information accessible (i.e., in front of your face or better audio cues) to let you know what functions the car is currently performing.

Until the car can be fully relied upon to take over driving duties without interruption, it simply needs to provide more information more readily to the driver, and make its limitations crystal clear — and often.

To contrast, let's take a look at Cadillac's Super Cruise semi-autonomous system. It has its limitations, but there's a clear break where the car's duties end and the driver's begins. The sounds and flashing, colored lights on top of the steering wheel are almost impossible to ignore, and the warnings come early. Plus, the fact that the car actually monitors your attention with cameras pointed at your face is a huge difference here. We simply felt more aware of our surroundings, our duties and our vehicle's self-driving capabilities with Super Cruise than with Autopilot, despite the freedom to go hands-free. . . .

Software updates could provide solutions to a lot of the Model 3's Autopilot problems. Better audio cues and simpler, more intuitive controls (maybe move some of them to the thumbscrolls) would go a long way. But the problem still remains that there is no easily seen display in front of the driver. And there is no attention management system currently in place. The current hardware can't provide the former, and it's unclear if it can provide the latter. There is that one little camera by the rear-view mirror, but Tesla hasn't been forthright its uses or capabilities.

Regarding the usability of Autopilot in the Model 3, software can't fix the physical changes this car truly needs, chiefly a head-up display, if not an instrument panel. That would require a design refresh from Tesla. An aftermarket HUD could help, but it likely couldn't incorporate the visualization of Autopilot functions as well as a factory setup. But we ought to also consider that putting a "beta" system with a name that implies autonomy in an untrained customer's car is a questionable move. As it currently exists, approach Autopilot with caution. You are still the driver.
One of the problems and solutions discussed in the article, altering max. speed for ACC, has been changed with the latest update (10.5), so that it can now be done from the right scroll button instead of having to use the touchscreen, and I'd call that a much needed change.
 
A change we all knew was on the way even though everyone freaked out before about it. There will be many changes over time all planned and anticipated yet people will rant that it's a bad design based on what they see now. There are a bunch of new features on the way. something that is actually possible on a car like this and inflexible on others.
 
edatoakrun said:
Another replication (?) of the recent autopilot failure, this one at the same location as the fatal crash.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVJSjeHDvfY

Pretty clear why with the road painted like that. This is why you are supposed to have your hands on the wheel. You would really have to not be paying attention to hit that with that long approach and you should be aware based on proper use of the system. This shows the driver that crashed was not paying attention if the same event occurred and was also ignoring pre-warnings FAR in advance. You have to drive a LONG distance to get the warning beep on AP, so the driver ignored the first warning for some time, then ignored the second warning and then was not paying attention on the approach to that intersection.

You can also see the lane line continues dark and solid to the left and the separator line that is faded and broken, the entire transition is painted poorly and unsafely for drivers without AP, this would be unsafe for normal cars and drivers and even more so at night. Plus there is no barrier and the wall is not marked. That intersection is insanely dangerous at many levels. I see the next day they put a new barrier and marking in, one that was gone for a long time after the previous accident(s).
 
EVDRIVER said:
A change we all knew was on the way even though everyone freaked out before about it. There will be many changes over time all planned and anticipated yet people will rant that it's a bad design based on what they see now. There are a bunch of new features on the way. something that is actually possible on a car like this and inflexible on others.
The need for such a capability was obvious before the car ever entered the market, so why did it need to be added? Every car with Cruise Control for the past 30+ years has been able to adjust the CC speed by tapping a lever or button without needing to take your hands off the steering wheel or your eyes off the road. Why on earth would anyone at Tesla feel that forcing the driver to do both simultaneously is acceptable or safe, unless the car is capable of safely driving itself during that time, something Tesla explicitly denies? Stupid design is stupid design, and the fact that they can fix it later doesn't excuse them.
 
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