Official Tesla Model 3 thread

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
C & D has to borrow a test car (!) and concludes the model 3 is not quite ready for prime time...

Instrumented Test

2018 Tesla Model 3 Long Range

The perils of outsize expectations.

...the Model 3’s result is in our real-world 75-mph highway fuel-economy test. Our calculated range of 200 miles is far below the EPA’s overall estimates of 310 miles in combined driving and 293 miles in highway driving, but it was certainly affected by the 28-degree-Fahrenheit ambient temperature....

Inconsistent panel gaps around the doors and myriad ill-fitting trim pieces were among the worst we’ve seen in recent memory.

Such a glaring misstep makes us wonder what Tesla could have made of the Model 3 without the ambition to produce so many cars so quickly. Although it shows promising flashes of cleverness in its execution, the Model 3 in its current form feels just shy of complete. What’s more, at $50,000 and up, it also falls short of its mission to provide affordable and accessible electric motoring to a wide spectrum of the population. As much as Tesla has achieved here in creating a nicely integrated, capable, and relatively fun entry-luxury EV, we’re still left waiting—along with all those hopeful would-be owners—for the Model 3 to change the world.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-tesla-model-3-test-review

Rational consideration of the model 3 negates one purchase:

Opinion: Why this Tesla car shopper sped away from the Model 3

...When I put down the $1,000 refundable deposit, I was making an emotional but semi-rational decision: I gave Tesla an interest-free loan to reserve my place so that in the future I could make a rational decision to buy the Model 3 or not. As that time approaches, it’s clear that it’s hard to commit $50,000 to a car that is unseen and undriven...

As I was contemplating writing a check for $55,000, the Model 3 started to feel less and less appealing. I started thinking about a three-year-old Model S instead (plus, I’d get to use Tesla superchargers for free). Or maybe I should wait for electric cars from other automakers.

I share this experience because I’m probably not the only one thinking this way. As the dollar meets the road and a lot of Model 3 depositors visit Tesla showrooms, they will likely have similar second thoughts. Consequently, Tesla may discover that lower Model 3 production levels will be sufficient to meet declining demand after a raft of deposit cancellations...
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-this-tesla-car-shopper-sped-away-from-the-model-3-2018-04-05
 
edatoakrun said:
C & D has to borrow a test car (!) and concludes the model 3 is not quite ready for prime time...

Instrumented Test

2018 Tesla Model 3 Long Range

The perils of outsize expectations.

...the Model 3’s result is in our real-world 75-mph highway fuel-economy test. Our calculated range of 200 miles is far below the EPA’s overall estimates of 310 miles in combined driving and 293 miles in highway driving, but it was certainly affected by the 28-degree-Fahrenheit ambient temperature....

Inconsistent panel gaps around the doors and myriad ill-fitting trim pieces were among the worst we’ve seen in recent memory.

Such a glaring misstep makes us wonder what Tesla could have made of the Model 3 without the ambition to produce so many cars so quickly. Although it shows promising flashes of cleverness in its execution, the Model 3 in its current form feels just shy of complete. What’s more, at $50,000 and up, it also falls short of its mission to provide affordable and accessible electric motoring to a wide spectrum of the population. As much as Tesla has achieved here in creating a nicely integrated, capable, and relatively fun entry-luxury EV, we’re still left waiting—along with all those hopeful would-be owners—for the Model 3 to change the world.
https://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2018-tesla-model-3-test-review

Rational consideration of the model 3 negates one purchase:

Opinion: Why this Tesla car shopper sped away from the Model 3

...When I put down the $1,000 refundable deposit, I was making an emotional but semi-rational decision: I gave Tesla an interest-free loan to reserve my place so that in the future I could make a rational decision to buy the Model 3 or not. As that time approaches, it’s clear that it’s hard to commit $50,000 to a car that is unseen and undriven...

As I was contemplating writing a check for $55,000, the Model 3 started to feel less and less appealing. I started thinking about a three-year-old Model S instead (plus, I’d get to use Tesla superchargers for free). Or maybe I should wait for electric cars from other automakers.

I share this experience because I’m probably not the only one thinking this way. As the dollar meets the road and a lot of Model 3 depositors visit Tesla showrooms, they will likely have similar second thoughts. Consequently, Tesla may discover that lower Model 3 production levels will be sufficient to meet declining demand after a raft of deposit cancellations...
https://www.marketwatch.com/story/why-this-tesla-car-shopper-sped-away-from-the-model-3-2018-04-05


Wow, more opinions on value. Prob hard to find those. Well that's it I'm cancelling for sure now. Yet there are opinions that contradict those as well. What to do? Ed, I hope you can help me........ Perhaps you and Lorenfb can write a review together for all the non-buyers here.
 
This video is a month old, but Nikki at Transport Evolved does a good job discussing the issues related to the Tesla Model 3:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEbvYcP89lg[/youtube]
 
RegGuheert said:
This video is a month old, but Nikki at Transport Evolved does a good job discussing the issues related to the Tesla Model 3:

Thanks for your post, given the previous post.
 
RegGuheert said:
This video is a month old, but Nikki at Transport Evolved does a good job discussing the issues related to the Tesla Model 3:
Thanks for posting. I've followed Nikki's EV posts since about 2010. Her stuff is always just ok but usually a little long-winded. Granted, a month old makes it dated in the current environment but this was just a flaccid rant.
 
TSLA is moving to solve it's biggest problem with model 3 sales.

Starting at ~$50 k, It just doesn't cost enough...

Dual-Motor Tesla Model 3 “Probably” Coming In July

Tesla chief executive Elon Musk claims that the long-awaited dual-motor Tesla Model 3 will “probably” arrive in July.

Asked on Twitter when the all-wheel drive Model 3 will arrive, Musk revealed that the company needs to achieve its goal of building 5000 Model 3s a week before it considers “adding complexity that would inhibit production ramp.”

Like the dual-motor systems used by the Tesla Model S and Model X, the dual-motor Model 3 will offer an improved range over the rear-wheel drive model while also providing much quicker acceleration. Pricing remains unclear but we can say with confidence Tesla buyers won’t have difficulty spending over $50,000 on a well-equipped dual-motor Model 3.

Interestingly, Tesla is only building the Model 3 in rear-wheel drive guise with the ‘Long Range’ battery pack. Additionally, only a single interior option is currently offered to customers but a second, complete with white upholstery, is in the works.

As the electric carmaker has yet to commence production of entry-level Model 3s, the $35,000 electric sedan is still some way off...
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/04/dual-motor-tesla-model-3-probably-coming-july/
 
edatoakrun said:
TSLA is moving to solve it's biggest problem with model 3 sales.

Starting at ~$50 k, It just doesn't cost enough...

Dual-Motor Tesla Model 3 “Probably” Coming In July

Tesla chief executive Elon Musk claims that the long-awaited dual-motor Tesla Model 3 will “probably” arrive in July.

Asked on Twitter when the all-wheel drive Model 3 will arrive, Musk revealed that the company needs to achieve its goal of building 5000 Model 3s a week before it considers “adding complexity that would inhibit production ramp.”

Like the dual-motor systems used by the Tesla Model S and Model X, the dual-motor Model 3 will offer an improved range over the rear-wheel drive model while also providing much quicker acceleration. Pricing remains unclear but we can say with confidence Tesla buyers won’t have difficulty spending over $50,000 on a well-equipped dual-motor Model 3.

Interestingly, Tesla is only building the Model 3 in rear-wheel drive guise with the ‘Long Range’ battery pack. Additionally, only a single interior option is currently offered to customers but a second, complete with white upholstery, is in the works.

As the electric carmaker has yet to commence production of entry-level Model 3s, the $35,000 electric sedan is still some way off...
https://www.carscoops.com/2018/04/dual-motor-tesla-model-3-probably-coming-july/


Except there is VERY high demand for the AWD version, many early reservations and others were held to wait for this inc the employees. Keep on trolling....
 
Oh no and I shorted the sky to fall.

Summary
After months of fear, uncertainty and doubt, Tesla's Model 3 production is showing significant signs of improvement.
The company registered another record number of VINs in one day recently, and even Bloomberg's estimates have surged to well over 2,300 models per week.
Recent developments imply Tesla should be able to reach 5k per week Model 3 production relatively soon.
After production stabilizes Tesla should begin to implement its economies of scale capabilities coupled with its multifaceted competitive advantage to greatly improve margins and become profitable.

https://seekingalpha.com/amp/article/4161845-tesla-model-3-moment-arrived

The first line sums up their site MO - LOL
 
Tesla is now stuck in the difficult position with the Model 3 production, where if they can / and do increase the production rate much above the reported current 2,500 per week rate --- they will hit the 200,000 Cap Limit for the $7,500 Fed Tax refund this Quarter (ends June 30th).

That would then only give them only the 3rd Quarter of this year at the $7,500 refund and deliveries in the last Quarter of this year would qualify for only a $3,750 refund.

Gets only worse in 2019, the 1st Quarter refund would be only $1,875 (not much on a very expensive car) and zero after that.

If they do hold production down this Quarter, it will only delay hitting the Cap until the 3rd Quarter and delaying these numbers by 90 days (still not a good scenario).

2019 will also bring in new competion with 200 + mile range capabilities and they will all have the full $7,500 refund available --- makes a real price point advantage when Tesla starts selling $35,000 cars.

Tesla also has this little problem of having accumulated a reported $10B debt outstanding – give or take a few $B.
$3B is non-recourse debt (SolarCity) to Tesla, so hopefully Musk will make that good from his own pocket.

It is interesting to make a wild calculation just how many cars it would take to pay off some of this debt, say $5B with an average Tesla profit of $5,000 per car (very unlikely level). That is 1,000,000 (1 Million cars) with ALL profits being used to just retire $5B debt.

This is a very Big Debt Hole to dig out of.
 
leaf16 said:
Tesla is now stuck in the difficult position with the Model 3 production, where if they can / and do increase the production rate much above the reported current 2,500 per week rate --- they will hit the 200,000 Cap Limit for the $7,500 Fed Tax refund this Quarter (ends June 30th).

Not really new news. People predicted they would hit 200K in 4Q17, then 1Q18, and now 2Q18. By some estimates they got 6 more months of full credit than was originally anticipated.

That would then only give them only the 3rd Quarter of this year at the $7,500 refund and deliveries in the last Quarter of this year would qualify for only a $3,750 refund.

leaf16 said:
Gets only worse in 2019, the 1st Quarter refund would be only $1,875 (not much on a very expensive car) and zero after that.
Not quite. $3750 would be through 1Q19 and then $1875 for 2Q19 and 3Q19.

leaf16 said:
If they do hold production down this Quarter, it will only delay hitting the Cap until the 3rd Quarter and delaying these numbers by 90 days (still not a good scenario).
It's a common misbelief that "holding production down" is the only way to avoid hitting the limit. I very much doubt they would actually hold down production (unless it served some other means such as gearing up for higher production rates or introducing new options like AWD and SR battery). Other options include diverting shipments to Canada or other non-US markets, and keeping production up, but stockpiling Model 3's for quick sale in 3Q18, maximizing the number of people able to take the credit. If they do go this route, I see a combination of all of the above.

leaf16 said:
2019 will also bring in new competion with 200 + mile range capabilities and they will all have the full $7,500 refund available --- makes a real price point advantage when Tesla starts selling $35,000 cars.
True enough, but I think LATE 2019 and more likely early 2020 is when we will really see these. For sure it will be a headwind against Tesla, although Tesla will already have gotten through the production ramp that other manufacturers will have to climb themselves.
 
Welcome to the forum. I must admit it's curious to see another negative Tesla post from a first time poster.
 
Cool estimating tool: https://teslanomics.co/tesla-model-3-ramp-estimator/#

STDb9qg.jpg
 
leaf16 said:
Tesla is now stuck in the difficult position with the Model 3 production, where if they can / and do increase the production rate much above the reported current 2,500 per week rate --- they will hit the 200,000 Cap Limit for the $7,500 Fed Tax refund this Quarter (ends June 30th).

That would then only give them only the 3rd Quarter of this year at the $7,500 refund and deliveries in the last Quarter of this year would qualify for only a $3,750 refund.

Gets only worse in 2019, the 1st Quarter refund would be only $1,875 (not much on a very expensive car) and zero after that.

If they do hold production down this Quarter, it will only delay hitting the Cap until the 3rd Quarter and delaying these numbers by 90 days (still not a good scenario).

2019 will also bring in new competion with 200 + mile range capabilities and they will all have the full $7,500 refund available --- makes a real price point advantage when Tesla starts selling $35,000 cars.

Tesla also has this little problem of having accumulated a reported $10B debt outstanding – give or take a few $B.
$3B is non-recourse debt (SolarCity) to Tesla, so hopefully Musk will make that good from his own pocket.

It is interesting to make a wild calculation just how many cars it would take to pay off some of this debt, say $5B with an average Tesla profit of $5,000 per car (very unlikely level). That is 1,000,000 (1 Million cars) with ALL profits being used to just retire $5B debt.

This is a very Big Debt Hole to dig out of.

1. you have incorrect info about tax credit phase-out

reality is this:
Qx - reach 200K EV sales
Qx+1 full credit
Qx+2 and 3 50% credit
Qx+4 and 5 25% credit

2. Tesla can shift some sales towards Canada, supply all of its showrooms (including some outside of USA) with Model 3s and direct a large part of June production towards East Coast ((transport + preparation time would ensure sales to happen in early July) - they might still need to keep some Model 3s from delivery, but if they announce it ahead of time, IMO investors will look at production numbers and will ignore if sales were moved from Q2 to Q3. There is no reason to artificially limit the production.
 
Leaf16 also repeatedly incorrectly calls the Federal tax credit a "tax refund". Nope.

He can look at Phaseout at the bottom of https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/taxevb.shtml needs for an illustrated example.
 
scottf200 said:
Cool estimating tool: https://teslanomics.co/tesla-model-3-ramp-estimator/#

STDb9qg.jpg

Out of what orifice did that graphic originate, especially the implication of that large of a M3 (>$50K) market segment with a plateau
of 7500/week into perpetuity? Appears to be just a textbook copy of a mathematical step function applied to an integration
function, e.g. first week of Production Management 101.

Laughable!
 
Perhaps you failed to notice that the data is user defined just like your fixed assumptions. The only laughable thing is your propaganda agenda.
 
EVDRIVER said:
Perhaps you failed to notice that the data is user defined just like your fixed assumptions. The only laughable thing is your propaganda agenda.
Haha, there is a reason that guy is on my ignore list :) . Clearly the user can adjust the input as my arrows point out to adjsut the Log Growth S-Curve. I take Ben the Data Scientist skills over his any day ...

Talks about it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ObuDLy6d5l0

Teslanomics by Ben Sullins [field of Data Science] - Published on Apr 10, 2018

This new tool I built lets you estimate the Tesla Model 3 Production ramp. View it here https://teslanomics.co/tesla-model-3-ramp-estimator/
View the full broadcast- https : //youtu.be/UZnrYYajGGw
This tool is for entertainment purposes only, please consult a financial advisor before making any stock purchasing decisions.

Data Sources
- http://ir.tesla.com/
- https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2018-tesla-tracker/

Log Growth S-Curve
- http://www.clear-lines.com/blog/post/S-shaped-market-adoption-curve.aspx
- https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logistic_function
 
scottf200 said:
EVDRIVER said:
Perhaps you failed to notice that the data is user defined just like your fixed assumptions. The only laughable thing is your propaganda agenda.
Haha, there is a reason that guy is on my ignore list :) . Clearly the user can adjust the input as my arrows point out to adjsut the Log Growth S-Curve. I take Ben the Data Scientist skills over his any day ...

Now to hear him speak, the "model" becomes even more laughable, i.e. a 10K/wk production (~ 500K/yr) with a forecast three years out.
Maybe when he takes basic micro-econ and marketing classes in junior college, he'll develop something useful other than serving up
hyperbole for those that typically "drink the Tesla kool-aid", i.e. like the two above!
 
Back
Top