WetEV
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Re: Recent experience with new Leaf - wow! :)

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:27 pm

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote: Rely on less range than you can get after losing 4 bars.

Indeed, going by this rule is not only prudent but will prevent disappointment in the purchase.
The problem is that $30 - $35k is a lot of money for a 90 mile range car.

I get that range from my 24 kWh LEAF and it cost me $7k


Yet you don't get that from a 24kWh Leaf as "No Worries Range". I've gotten over 100 miles on a charge multiple times on my 24kWh Leafs, but that doesn't make it a 100 mile range car. I will not get 90 miles into a headwind on a wet cold rainy day in the future when my battery has just lost the 4th bar. I couldn't get 75 miles into a headwind on a wet cold rainy day last winter!

SageBrush wrote:More to the point though, the conservative range does not let me do anything in a 40 kWh LEAF I cannot do in my much cheaper car. They are both quite hobbled.


The Leaf is not hobbled for commuting with little bother, no stops for gasoline, less maintenance and lower fuel cost.

I wouldn't take a Leaf up a 4x4 jeep trail, or a road trip across the USA. I wouldn't try out outrun a Porsche on a track. Carrying a ton of lumber wouldn't be wise.

I'd hate to drive a 4x4 around town, waste of gasoline. I'd rather fly or take the train across the USA, depending on my schedule, or take the wife's car if it was summer. I'd hate to pay for maintenance on a Porsche. Trucks are a pain to park and suck gasoline.

Pick the correct tool for the job. Leaf for commuting, family around town. Something else for something else.

If you pick the wrong tool for the job, a poor workman will blame his tools, call it hobbled.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

WetEV
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Re: Recent experience with new Leaf - wow! :)

Sun Apr 15, 2018 6:44 pm

LeftieBiker wrote:Just expecting a 2018 Leaf to live up to its own advance PR is going to prove disappointing to many more savvy EV drivers. '150 mile range! 45 minute fast charge to 80%!' is looking more like "100 miles of real world range after two years. One fast QC per trip - after that plan on eating a leisurely dinner while you wait."


If you need more than one QC per trip, you are taking the wrong car.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

SageBrush
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Re: Recent experience with new Leaf - wow! :)

Sun Apr 15, 2018 7:19 pm

WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:Just expecting a 2018 Leaf to live up to its own advance PR is going to prove disappointing to many more savvy EV drivers. '150 mile range! 45 minute fast charge to 80%!' is looking more like "100 miles of real world range after two years. One fast QC per trip - after that plan on eating a leisurely dinner while you wait."


If you need more than one QC per trip, you are taking the wrong car.

Are you also taking the wrong car if that QC is at 22 kW during summer months ?
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

LeftieBiker
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Re: Recent experience with new Leaf - wow! :)

Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:21 pm

I guess that Nissan should be marketing the 2018 Leaf as "The perfect second or third car" eh, WetEV?
Scarlet Ember 2018 Leaf SL W/ Pro Pilot
2009 Vectrix VX-1 W/18 Leaf modules, & 3 EZIP E-bicycles.
PLEASE don't PM me with Leaf questions. Just post in the topic that seems most appropriate.

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Nubo
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Re: Recent experience with new Leaf - wow! :)

Sun Apr 15, 2018 10:50 pm

It's not that it's a bad car, or that it's not the right car for some people. But after willingly accepting the constraints of a 2012 LEAF and a 2015 LEAF, I was hoping Nissan (after 8 years) would finally and forcefully lay battery concerns to rest. The time for hand-waving and making allowances is quickly passing. LEAF has competition now.
I noticed you're still working with polymers.

WetEV
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Re: Recent experience with new Leaf - wow! :)

Mon Apr 16, 2018 6:50 am

SageBrush wrote:
WetEV wrote:If you need more than one QC per trip, you are taking the wrong car.

Are you also taking the wrong car if that QC is at 22 kW during summer months ?


If your battery is that hot before a QC, you might own the wrong car. Or live in the wrong place. Take your pick.

You are missing the point that a lot of the Leaf market is people that don't take trips beyond initial range, and don't live in places that hot. Or both.


Nubo wrote:LEAF has competition now.


Exactly.
Back in the day with one mass market BEV, the Leaf, people wanted the Leaf to be more things than it possibly could be at that price point with the technology of the day. May 2012, when I bought my first Leaf.

Now that there are five mass market BEVs, 3 Teslas S, X and 3, the GM Bolt, and the Leaf. OK, maybe the i3 as well. Ignoring compliance and limited production cars.

Soon there be far more.

If there is only one choice, and it doesn't meet your needs, you complain. If there are 20 or 100 choices, you pick the one that comes closest to your needs.

I suspect there is a sizable market for a non-TMS smaller battery car much like the Leaf. Might not be for you. No problem.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
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EVDRIVER
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Re: Recent experience with new Leaf - wow! :)

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:06 am

WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:Just expecting a 2018 Leaf to live up to its own advance PR is going to prove disappointing to many more savvy EV drivers. '150 mile range! 45 minute fast charge to 80%!' is looking more like "100 miles of real world range after two years. One fast QC per trip - after that plan on eating a leisurely dinner while you wait."


If you need more than one QC per trip, you are taking the wrong car.


Or Nissan does not make the right car but other EV makers do, I guess a Bolt or Tesla or other potential EVs are the right cars. Or, Nissan is the "flawed" car and others are not. Nissan has had the LEAF on the market for almost eight years, it's time to stop making excuses for their poor battery design. There is no sizable market for a non TMS car going forward unless the price is very low and significantly reduced by Nissan. What happens when the incentive is gone on the LEAF? I'm sure Nissan knows they need this to change and if not they are going to be in trouble in the next few years.

SageBrush
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Re: Recent experience with new Leaf - wow! :)

Mon Apr 16, 2018 8:43 am

WetEV wrote:You are missing the point that a lot of the Leaf market is people that don't take trips beyond initial range, and don't live in places that hot. Or both.
I have no idea what "a lot" means, but the PNW is only a small sliver of EV sales. And since Nissan markets and sells the LEAF throughout the country, there is a big problem. Your posts reminds me of DaveInOly quizzing unhappy buyers how long the LEAF sat on the car lot prior to purchase. He may have been right about the effect, but he was dishing out harsh criticism of the car (I think inadvertently) by pointing out just how flawed the battery was and the untenable position of the consumer. Unless of course you think any consumer should have to pass the MNL approved LEAF literacy and competency test before being allowed to buy a car.

Image
2013 LEAF 'S' Model with QC & rear-view camera
Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
3/2018: 58 Ahr, 28k miles
-----
2018 Tesla Model 3 LR, Delivered 6/2018

WetEV
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Re: Recent experience with new Leaf - wow! :)

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:19 pm

EVDRIVER wrote:
WetEV wrote:
LeftieBiker wrote:Just expecting a 2018 Leaf to live up to its own advance PR is going to prove disappointing to many more savvy EV drivers. '150 mile range! 45 minute fast charge to 80%!' is looking more like "100 miles of real world range after two years. One fast QC per trip - after that plan on eating a leisurely dinner while you wait."


If you need more than one QC per trip, you are taking the wrong car.


Or Nissan does not make the right car but other EV makers do, I guess a Bolt or Tesla or other potential EVs are the right cars.


if you frequently make trips needing more than one QC per trip, I agree.


EVDRIVER wrote:There is no sizable market for a non TMS car going forward unless the price is very low and significantly reduced by Nissan. What happens when the incentive is gone on the LEAF? I'm sure Nissan knows they need this to change and if not they are going to be in trouble in the next few years.


Change is needed, to be sure.

Exactly what changes, ah, that's the rub. It's partially a matter of scale. And the key point on the scaling isn't known by anyone. If you claim to know, I suggest you think some more.

TMS meaning active cooling, correct? Cell phones don't have active cooling. I can't see how active cooling could be implemented without making the cell phone larger and heavier than a brick, and cost much more than a non-actively cooled phone. And for what? Perhaps twice the battery life? At the cost of needed four times the battery capacity, or perhaps even more? A fan on a cell phone??? Perhaps if you often leave your phone in your car in Death Valley. With the windows rolled up.

On the other end of the scale, a utility scale battery can well benefit from the added complexity as even 10% more battery life is a lot of money. It is cheaper and easier to build a huge cooling system than a tiny one, and far more efficient. Cheaper per kWh of battery cooling.

A car is in the middle of this scaling issue. Now with a static technology of batteries, an engineering team might work out roughly the size of battery where larger it makes sense to spend battery capacity for active cooling, and smaller it makes sense to accept faster battery capacity reduction with no active cooling to reduce cost.

Got the scaling point down? Now think some more. Battery technology isn't static. Active cooling doesn't solve all capacity loss issues, witness the Ford Focus Electric. There are different current battery technologies that work better in different temperature ranges. Would it be better to have a lower temperature battery and cool most places, or a higher temperature battery and heat most places?
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
2014 Leaf SL Red

WetEV
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Re: Recent experience with new Leaf - wow! :)

Mon Apr 16, 2018 12:49 pm

SageBrush wrote:I have no idea what "a lot" means,


Actually, I don't as well. I suspect the median PNW EV will be generally better off without a TMS, excluding performance EVs of various sorts. I suspect that the most EVs in the hottest places will need active cooling. Where is line is between the two cases? I know I can't draw it, and I don't think you can as well.
WetEV
#49
Most everything around here is wet during the rainy season. And the rainy season is long.
2012 Leaf SL Red (Totaled)
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