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LTLFTcomposite
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Re: Subaru Chief Designer Says Automakers First EV Will Be Based Off Existing Car, Coming 2020

Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:08 pm

Aside from a different floor pan stamping to accommodate the battery pack is there anything really all that unique about the structure of an EV vs an ICE?

They may just have meant they are planning on it looking like one of their "normal" cars, which is probably a good thing. No point incurring additional tooling costs just to create an EV-dorkmobile that further distances the technology from mainstream buyers.
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GRA
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Re: Subaru Chief Designer Says Automakers First EV Will Be Based Off Existing Car, Coming 2020

Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:49 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
RegGuheert wrote:They fill a niche for those who only care about utility and put their own needs far above those of the environment.
GRA wrote:As to what Subaru people care about, utility, safety, reliability and good gas mileage (preferably zero emissions) given AWD, at a moderate cost.
You've made my point exactly:

2018 Toyota Prius: 52 MPG
2018 Subaru Forester AWD: 28 MPG

Subarus use nearly twice as much fuel all the time for the 0.5% of the time when people want to entertain themselves.

Uh huh, and when exactly will AWD be available in the Prius? As it is, we've finally (2+ years late) gotten the first relatively affordable AWD PHEV now that the Outlander is arriving, and we still don't have an affordable AWD BEV.

As for what priority the environment has in people's choices, anyone who has chosen to have children when they have the means to prevent that is in no position to lecture anybody else about putting their own needs "far above those of the environment," given the resources that will be used throughout each of those children's lives to feed, clothe, house, transport, educate, employ, entertain and provide medical care for them, especially if they expect to enjoy an American standard of living. And if they have kids . . .

The problem with putting yourself on a pedestal is that it makes you a better target.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Subaru Chief Designer Says Automakers First EV Will Be Based Off Existing Car, Coming 2020

Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:34 pm

Via IEVS:
Subaru PHEV to Launch In U.S. This Year, BEV In 2021
https://insideevs.com/subaru-phev-launch-u-s-2018-bev-2021/

. . . In order to get the PHEV to market quickly, Subaru will use the Toyota Prius Prime’s system as a platform. The exec told Automotive News:

    “For our plug-in hybrid to be introduced this year, we have used Toyota’s technologies as much as possible.

    We can’t engage in a large-scale development.”

Interestingly, nonetheless, Subaru will still use its longitudinal “boxer” engine configuration, in tandem with the electric motor and battery pack. Whereas, the Prime has a traditionally mounted engine setup. . . .

Other articles indicate the car will be built in Japan and shipped to the U.S., which probably means it will be either a Cross-Trek or Forester (the latter being redesigned for 2019), as Subaru makes all their other models which are sold here in their plant in Indiana, and that availability will be restricted to CARB states.

While it will use the Prime's 8.8 kWh battery pack and motor, I expect it will drive like a Subaru and not a Prius.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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RegGuheert
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Re: Subaru Chief Designer Says Automakers First EV Will Be Based Off Existing Car, Coming 2020

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:40 pm

GRA wrote:While it will use the Prime's 8.8 kWh battery pack and motor, I expect it will drive like a Subaru and not a Prius.
I would say that the Prius Prime's system is a LOT more than a "battery pack and motor".

I just watched a teardown of the Toyota Prius/Prime transaxle the other day:



My impression is that this fourth-generation transaxle is very refined. There is a lot of technology in that box which would be hard to match in a new design: thermal design, lubrication, motor design, controls design, packaging, manufacturability, reliability, performance, weight, and much more.

So what is in this for Toyota to license this critical piece of technology to a company which "can’t engage in a large-scale development"? Do they have a relationship beyond that of a supplier/integrator relationship?
Last edited by RegGuheert on Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
RegGuheert
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GRA
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Re: Subaru Chief Designer Says Automakers First EV Will Be Based Off Existing Car, Coming 2020

Thu Feb 15, 2018 4:11 pm

RegGuheert wrote:
GRA wrote:While it will use the Prime's 8.8 kWh battery pack and motor, I expect it will drive like a Subaru and not a Prius.
I would say that the Prius Prime's system is a LOT more than a "battery pack and motor".

I just watched a teardown of the Toyota Prius/Prime transaxle the other day:

[youtube]htts://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-dHeRJdrnI8[/youtube]

My impression is that this fourth-generation transaxle is very refined. There is a lot of technology in that box which would be hard to match in a new design: thermal design, lubrication, motor design, controls design, packaging, manufacturability, reliability, performance, weight, and much more.

So what is in this for Toyota to license this critical piece of technology to a company which "can’t engage in a large-scale development"? Do they have a relationship beyond that of a supplier/integrator relationship?

As the article noted Toyota owns 17% of Subaru, and they've previously collaborated - the BRZ and FR-S were both designed by Subaru, with each company doing their own chassis tweaking and with some minor differences in the interiors and exterior cosmetics. As this article says, Toyota is involved with Mazda and Denso to use the tech:
Toyota, Mazda And Denso Team Up To Work On EVs
https://insideevs.com/toyota-mazda-denso-team-work-evs/ Subaru joined later.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

GRA
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Re: Subaru Chief Designer Says Automakers First EV Will Be Based Off Existing Car, Coming 2020

Tue Apr 17, 2018 7:28 pm

Via GCR:
Report: Subaru may use Evoltis name for new plug-in hybrid coming next year
https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1116298_report-subaru-may-use-evoltis-for-new-plug-in-hybrid-coming-next-year

Subaru buyers would seem to be the perfect group to be interested in buying plug-in cars: They love the outdoors and want to enjoy it unspoiled. Yet the company has lagged in producing anything electric. Its only hybrid so far, the first-generation Crosstrek Hybrid, barely registered on the green-car scene. Behind the wheel, it barely registered as a hybrid; the gas engine had to run to accomplish almost anything.

Now in a trademark filing, first reported by Car and Driver, the company has potentially registered a name for its first plug-in product: Evoltis. A spokeswoman for Subaru declined to comment on the filing or the potential name. The Evoltis may be a plug-in hybrid using technology from the Toyota Prius Prime and could go on sale as early as 2019. The Evoltis also may be based on the recently updated Crosstrek. . . .

Whichever platform they offer it on, I hope they have a re-think on the name. "Evoltis" seems too close to "revolting" , as well as being the sort of completely made-up word that too many Japanese auto manufacturers seem to take pleasure in using for their car names. Still, if the car is good enough people will live with the name.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

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Re: Subaru Chief Designer Says Automakers First EV Will Be Based Off Existing Car, Coming 2020

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:24 pm

"Quick, get me a bag! My evoltis is acting...BLAAHUUURRGHHH!! Oops, sorry!"
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Re: Subaru Chief Designer Says Automakers First EV Will Be Based Off Existing Car, Coming 2020

Tue Apr 17, 2018 8:47 pm

GRA wrote: While it will use the Prime's 8.8 kWh battery pack and motor, I expect it will drive like a Subaru and not a Prius.

8.8 kWh in a Subaru is not going to be anywhere near the 25 mile EV range it is in a Prius Prime.

I hope Subaru has a wildly successful first PHEV (and truth be told, I admire that company a lot), but I am not feeling optimistic.
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GRA
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Re: Subaru Chief Designer Says Automakers First EV Will Be Based Off Existing Car, Coming 2020

Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:16 pm

GRA wrote: While it will use the Prime's 8.8 kWh battery pack and motor, I expect it will drive like a Subaru and not a Prius.

8.8 kWh in a Subaru is not going to be anywhere near the 25 mile EV range it is in a Prius Prime.

I hope Subaru has a wildly successful first PHEV (and truth be told, I admire that company a lot), but I am not feeling optimistic.

I think 20 miles AER will be acceptable (covers the round-trip commute of ~50% of U.S. drivers), and it should be able to make that. While more would be preferable, it's an inevitable trade-off between cost, weight, efficiency (on ICE and battery) and interior volume. It's bad enough that the Crosstrek hybrid lost its (compact) spare tire, as many Subaru owners are loathe to accept that as we're often far off the beaten track, and for me personally and I imagine many others we want a full size spare; that's one reason I chose the Forester over the Outback and Legacy wagons, as it came with a full size spare that fit in the well. I dread the thought of having to swap tires front to rear in snow if I need chains.

As I don't commute by car, for me the basic standard for PHEV AER is that it should be able to do the 14 mile loop around Yosemite Valley while providing heat/defrost in winter (or A/C in summer, but I don't go into the Valley during summer). This would also suffice for Zion Canyon, Arches etc. The population density is low enough outside the few built-up areas in major parks that running the ICE isn't a major local pollution issue most of the time, although I'd obviously like to minimize that. As an example, a 53 mile AER Volt 2 can probably do the 40 miles/2,400' of climb from Crane Flat to Tuolumne Meadows on the battery, possibly with heat/defrost, and might under ideal conditions make it another 6.7 miles/+1,341' to Tioga Pass, but compared to a Prime it sacrifices a lot of Hwy mpg, and on the typical road trip many of us take the Volt would use more gas than a Prime. With less AER I'd be forced to use it more tactically, making use of Hold mode except when I'm in areas with more people (Big Oak Flat entrance station, Crane Flat, Olmstead Point, Tenaya Lake, Tuolumne Meadows).

Which you'd prefer depends on whether you're primary focus is local or global emissions, although the Prime wouldn't work for me owing to its lack of a true hold mode - I want to be able to control when and where to emit as above. We'll see if Subaru provides one. Which reminds me, I'm going to send them an email asking for it [and I just did].
Last edited by GRA on Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Guy [I have lots of experience designing/selling off-grid AE systems, some using EVs but don't own one. Local trips are by foot, bike and/or rapid transit].

The 'best' is the enemy of 'good enough'. Copper shot, not Silver bullets.

SageBrush
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Re: Subaru Chief Designer Says Automakers First EV Will Be Based Off Existing Car, Coming 2020

Wed Apr 18, 2018 6:34 pm

GRA wrote:the Prime wouldn't work for me owing to its lack of a true hold mode - I want to be able to control when and where to emit as above.

Are you sure about that ?
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Bought off-lease Jan 2017 from N. California
Car is now enjoying an easy life in Colorado
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