Toyota Mirai Fuel Cell

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GRA said:
If correct, it certainly shows that they didn't evaluate their needs and desires well before buying.
Hopefully they will vocally spread their dissatisfaction with this new fiasco built purely from OPM so that others will not continue to buy into the H2 nonsense.
 
RegGuheert said:
GRA said:
If correct, it certainly shows that they didn't evaluate their needs and desires well before buying.
Hopefully they will vocally spread their dissatisfaction with this new fiasco built purely from OPM so that others will not continue to buy into the H2 nonsense.
They are welcome to express their opinion and convince anyone they can, as are we all. Off to watch the Warriors/Spurs.
 
GRA said:
RegGuheert said:
JasonA said:
...neighbor got a deal on a Fugly Mirai and is like :? This fueling sucks! LOL.
I think it's funny that your neighbor hates the one and only "draw" of H2 FCVs! :lol:
If correct, it certainly shows that they didn't evaluate their needs and desires well before buying.
I thought HFC was for the masses of common people that wanted same fueling as an ICE vehicle?
This FCV is supposed to fit the needs same as an ICE so what would there be to evaluate?
In the quote there is no complaint of cost or lack of stations or lack of range.... just the the fueling sucks.
 
smkettner said:
GRA said:
RegGuheert said:
I think it's funny that your neighbor hates the one and only "draw" of H2 FCVs! :lol:
If correct, it certainly shows that they didn't evaluate their needs and desires well before buying.
I thought HFC was for the masses of common people that wanted same fueling as an ICE vehicle?
This FCV is supposed to fit the needs same as an ICE so what would there be to evaluate?
In the quote there is no complaint of cost or lack of stations or lack of range.... just the the fueling sucks.
If home 'fueling' was a priority for the guy, why on earth would he choose an FCEV knowing that wasn't an option?!?! That's like someone buying a Miata and then complaining that they can't carry their child's little league team plus their gear in it. He should have gotten a PEV instead, and he's got lots of options. Or is this just one minor negative point for him, which he considered before buying and decided it wasn't a major priority, and he's otherwise happy with the car?

Every car I've ever bought or considered buying has had good and bad points, but I (and I assume most people) have weighed each of them before deciding which car does the best job of meeting my needs and desires. I'm assuming the guy didn't just throw darts at car pictures to choose which one to buy.
 
smkettner said:
Maybe he was told refueling was same as his ICE. Then is wasn't.
Seeing as how all the companies selling or leasing FCEVs are first checking to see if the potential customer has a convenient fueling station, that's pretty unlikely. And then, how did they ever manage to hear about the Mirai in the first place? It's not as if FCEVs are heavily advertised. Neither are PEVs, but I've seen far more ads for those than FCEVs, and they must have had some interest in FCEVs in the first place to even notice them; otherwise, why not just get a much cheaper Camry Hybrid with an extra seat, or a Prime at the same dealer? The story we got just doesn't hold up - either the Mirai buyer is an idiot, or else not being able to charge at home was a minor issue.
 
GRA said:
smkettner said:
Maybe he was told refueling was same as his ICE. Then is wasn't.
Seeing as how all the companies selling or leasing FCEVs are first checking to see if the potential customer has a convenient fueling station, that's pretty unlikely. And then, how did they ever manage to hear about the Mirai in the first place? It's not as if FCEVs are heavily advertised. Neither are PEVs, but I've seen far more ads for those than FCEVs, and they must have had some interest in FCEVs in the first place to even notice them; otherwise, why not just get a much cheaper Camry Hybrid with an extra seat, or a Prime at the same dealer? The story we got just doesn't hold up - either the Mirai buyer is an idiot, or else not being able to charge at home was a minor issue.
Suffering from a bit of cognitive dissonance over this, are we, GRA? Your apologetics for this technology do not hold water.

Even if there is a station close to the owner or lessee of an H2 FCV does NOT imply that the refueling doesn't suck. It just means there is a station nearby.

- It says nothing about whether or not there is a convenient station in the normal direction of travel.
- It says nothing about whether or not the station is down for maintenance frequently or not.
- It says nothing about how many vehicles have been sold around that particular station by the various H2 automakers and therefore whether there are long waiting lines to get the fuel.
- It says nothing about whether there is fuel available when and where the owners need it when they take a trip.

The bottom line is this: This owner thought that with a steep discount on the vehicle and free fuel for the life of the lease, he could not go wrong. Unfortunately, the singular "benefit" of this technology turned out to be a drawback after all. That leaves H2 FCVs as having only drawbacks when compared with BEVs.

As I've said many times in the past, we need to relegate this technology to be used ONLY where it has clear advantages over all alternatives and quit trying to apply it where it does not fit, such as for personal transportation.
 
There was a Mira in front of me. The back is merely ugly, not like the front! Without the front I could live with the back.
 
There are some good insights into FCEV refueling issues on the Edmunds long term website. They had a Mirai and now have a Clarity (and a Bolt and a Model 3).

https://www.edmunds.com/honda/clarity/2017/long-term-road-test/

“"Using the H2 Station Finder app for live updates is key when it comes to knowing whether pumps are available or being serviced. There aren't many options out there. So pulling up to a pump to learn it's broken and now you have to drive across town, or several towns, to fill up is frustrating to say the least." — Bryn MacKinnon, manager, content operations”

“"I'll be honest, I don't stand by the filler when the Clarity is fueling. I lock it into place and then step around to the other side of the vehicle. I do this because the pressures at work are ... well ... explosive, and I'm convinced that if there's going to be a failure point it won't be the Honda's ridiculously over-armored tank, but the third-party pump. And I don't want to be standing near it when it goes. Of course this is irrational, and of course I stand by gas tanks filling with volatile chemicals that (as anyone who has watched YouTube knows) are prone to bursting into flames. So what's the problem? Am I a Luddite? Am I just old and frightened of new things? Whatever it is, the Clarity has thus far failed to confirm my fears, but the psychological block remains." — Will Kaufman”

“"Talk about range anxiety! I left last night with 95 miles remaining. When I left my house this morning, I had 83. By the time I filled up, it was down to 70. I tried to fill up at a local station, but it was out of fuel, even though the California Fuel Cell Partnership Station Map said that it was up and running. Not super accurate, obviously.
"This morning, I had to enlist Rex to help get it filled and it still took us about 30 minutes to figure the whole thing out. Rex and I had a hell of a time trying to get the pump to work. First, we couldn't get the nozzle to latch. When we did, the pump would just stop and we'd have to start the whole process over again. We tried both H35 and H70 settings (hydrogen pressure), and both settings would sort of half fill then stop. Between us both, we spent around $50 to fill the car back up.
"All in all, the infrastructure for this vehicle is just not there yet. I'd much rather have range anxiety in an electric vehicle than one that runs on hydrogen. I also had visions of the nozzle flying off at high velocity and the Hindenburg disaster as we filled up. It's going to take a lot more than a free fuel card to get people to really adopt this technology. That being said, it's neat to play with." — Abigail Bassett, senior director, video & social media”
 
mtndrew1 said:
"All in all, the infrastructure for this vehicle is just not there yet. I'd much rather have range anxiety in an electric vehicle than one that runs on hydrogen. I also had visions of the nozzle flying off at high velocity and the Hindenburg disaster as we filled up. It's going to take a lot more than a free fuel card to get people to really adopt this technology. That being said, it's neat to play with." — Abigail Bassett, senior director, video & social media”

Heck yeah. As slow as L1 is, at least it is everywhere. Most places you'd run out of charge are a short tow and an extension cord away from a 120V outlet. Hydrogen will never get to that level of availability.
 
While some of the comments hit some good facts, truth be told that the avg consumer will go after ANYTHING if it has the word "FREE" in it. In this case my neighbor had visions of grandeur with all that FREE FUEL but the thing is it comes with a price! :lol:

That price is limited availability, range, hassle to refuel (only 1 station in the so called local area) and not being able to take that car on long trips ,etc,etc. Put that Mirai up against USED Model S with unlimited SpC'ing and see how things stack up. :roll:

Hopefully, H2 dies out soon.. total joke..
 
JasonA said:
While some of the comments hit some good facts, truth be told that the avg consumer will go after ANYTHING if it has the word "FREE" in it. In this case my neighbor had visions of grandeur with all that FREE FUEL but the thing is it comes with a price! :lol:

That price is limited availability, range, hassle to refuel (only 1 station in the so called local area) and not being able to take that car on long trips ,etc,etc. Put that Mirai up against USED Model S with unlimited SpC'ing and see how things stack up. :roll:

Hopefully, H2 dies out soon.. total joke..

Hydrogen isn’t going to die for light duty vehicles when:

1) Toyota has spent billions “proving” how awesome it is
2) Japan and California, as well as Europe, heavily promote and favor hydrogen
3) the H2 car car get “super credit” over a battery electric car, to wit:

California Air Resources Board (CARB) - Zero Emission Vehicle (ZEV):

a. ZEV credits - 9 for hydrogen -(2015-2017 Model year’s only) vs- 1 to 4 credit for EV. This hydrogen benefit has been changed for model years 2018 and beyond to align with EVs.

b. $5000 California rebate for each hydrogen car sold -vs- $1500 or $2500 for hybrids and EVs

c. Exemption from "traveling provision" for hydrogen -vs- EVs must be sold in all 10 ZEV states starting MY2018. That means that a hydrogen car need only be sold in Cailoforna to qualify for CARB-ZEV credit in every CARB-ZEV state.

d. $20 million spent per year by the state of California, every year, for hydrogen infrastructure -vs- no guaranteed funding for EV infrastructure


CARB-ZEV state coalition - California, New York, Massachusetts, Oregon, Vermont, Maryland, Connecticut, Rhode Island, New Jersey and Maine.

***********
 
Toyota delivered 76 Mirai for April of 2018.

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/april+2018+sales+chart.download
 
mtndrew1 said:
Toyota delivered 76 Mirai for April of 2018.

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/april+2018+sales+chart.download
Thanks for that. I see they're 121 ahead of last year's YTD total (538 vs. 417), but off 30 from April 2017 (106). We'll have to see if that represents a shift of sales to the Clarity FCEV.
 
mtndrew1 said:
Toyota delivered 76 Mirai for April of 2018.

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/april+2018+sales+chart.download
2018 Toyota Mirai sales:

January: 213
February: 166
March: 83
April: 76

Gotta love that trend!

As BEV and PHEV sales take off in 2018, I think the downward pressure on H2 FCVs will be quite strong.
 
smkettner said:
If I had to speculate
If I had to speculate.... it's probably because people are waking up to the reality of not wanting to drive around with 10k psi H2, lack of fueling, etc,etc,etc,etc,...

Down goes the H2 hype machine (just like we predicted years ago).... damn I love our EVs!!! (Rav, ModelS and ModelX!!)

:lol: :lol: :lol:

Been thinking about picking up a new Leaf just for fun... but ya know... It's not HYDROGEN! :fawk:
 
RegGuheert said:
mtndrew1 said:
Toyota delivered 76 Mirai for April of 2018.

http://corporatenews.pressroom.toyota.com/releases/april+2018+sales+chart.download
2018 Toyota Mirai sales:

January: 213
February: 166
March: 83
April: 76

Gotta love that trend!

As BEV and PHEV sales take off in 2018, I think the downward pressure on H2 FCVs will be quite strong.
OTOH, the Clarity FCEV had:

Jan: (missing, possibly sales hadn't yet resumed after the software update stoppage)
Feb: 243
Mar: 121
Apr: 156

So it's possible we're seeing cannibalization of Mirai sales by the Clarity FCEV, which is generally a better deal if you have a longer commute (or need a fifth seat). As both cars are weirdmobiles and the market has shifted towards CUVs, I expect the upcoming Hyundai Nexo may well outsell both of them, although it will only arrive in Q4 so probably not for the year. IMO it's a nice looking CUV, and hopefully Hyundai can get the MSRP down to $50k or less.
 
I've always been super interested in the sales trends, especially because Toyota is quite secretive about it. What I've been able to figure out so far:

- The vast, vast majority of FCEVs is sold to government agencies, municipalities, etc. You can see this clearly in the yearly leasing cycle
- The other big impact is ZEV credits and local subsidies, which are most obvious in the end-of-year peak, this is mostly aimed towards buying consumers
- Demand is very closely tied to availability of filling infrastructure. New station opened? Suddenly 150-200 Mirais get sold and then that's it. Base sales of Mirais/Claritys seem to be about 100/mo
- Nobody keeps their FCEV beyond the free fuel period

This means you get some interesting data when comparing units sold to units registered. We're now just seeing the first vehicle stopping to receive free fuel, and with the high hydrogen prices basically nobody is keeping the Mirais.

This year, CA signed a bill that can allocate up to $40k per vehicle in tax credits, specifically for hydrogen fuel cell vehicles. Additionally, there is supposed to be a new bill that signs off on another '200' hydrogen filling stations, even though the last bill for '100' filling stations only produced 28. So by that logic, there may be ~100 filling stations in CA by 2025 and a market for a couple hundred FCEVs per month, maybe up to 1000 if the network effect kicks in.

I'm not sure that the Nexo will really help much. It's retailing in SK for 70 million KRW, that's about $65000. Almost exactly the same as the Mirai, so I think it'll likewise be a $70k car. They're not actually trying to sell this car, clearly it's either just made for compliance or otherwise to show off their 'commitment' to hydrogen to legislators.

IMO, the hydrogen cars on the market right now are doing it all wrong. Hydrogen fuel celll systems are way too expensive and cumbersome for small vehicles, at least at this stage, and it makes no sense to sell them at such a high price premium. What they should be doing, and IMO what would be a signifier of a company truly serious about hydrogen, is if one of the big automakers releases a plug-in electric-fuel cell hybrid. Something with both a decent battery (say 24 or 30kWh) and a small range extender fuel cell, say 10kW or so. That would be easily cheap enough to make a car that sells well and gets consumers accustomed to hydrogen without the range anxiety of not having anywhere to fill up. Because contrary to pure BEVs, HFCEVs are really limited in where and how much you can drive them, and that's not going to change within the next decade.
 
mux said:
I've always been super interested in the sales trends, especially because Toyota is quite secretive about it. What I've been able to figure out so far:

- The vast, vast majority of FCEVs is sold to government agencies, municipalities, etc. You can see this clearly in the yearly leasing cycle
I've never noticed that. Have any data on that? Have any direct data about it going to govt entities? I've yet to see any Mirais or FCEVs here in the Bay Area that have CA exempt plates. They all seem to be leased by private individuals. There's at least 1 or 2 at my work. It helps that the H2 fueling station is down the street. I sometimes see a Mirai fueling there. Haven't stopped to say hi or check their plate.

I sometimes see one running around my area (near home). I don't recall if it's the same color and same Mirai that's parked on the driveway of a street connected to mine.

I sometimes see some Mirai's getting onto highway 17 but never got a close enough look to see if it belongs to anyone at work. I don't think the colors are right.
 
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