Possible Widespread 2018-19 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

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arnis said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Just because it might not be used, doesn't mean it's useless.

AFAIK, this is exactly what useless means.
You and WetEV need a qualifier: useless for the two of you.
Far from useless for all the people who do not live in cool climates
 
Well, BMW, Tesla etc offer cold weather package. There is no reason for Nissan not to offer cold weather package OR hot weather package.
Cold weather package has all-around seat heaters and steering wheel heater and battery PTC heating elements and heat pump.
Hot weather package has no seat heaters, has no steering wheel heater, has no battery PTC heating elements (never used down to 14F)
and no heat pump functionality. But it does have battery cooling system. Both packages should be approximately the same price.
To keep base price the same, only S-trim should be with no package (battery heater exception in cold region). SV should be one of those two.
SL might even have most of these functions. Though this will add to the price and is basically unreasonable.

There is no such markets where it is hot (30C / 90F and more) for long and cold -10C / 15F) for long (summer/winter).
 
One of the things we are thankful for on are leaf is the ability to leave town for a couple months and see virtually no drop on the state of charge. Our smart is not as ghost in this respect and I have heard that neither Tesla or Bolt can do this. Is the reason the active cooling? I don’t know. But it is a nice perc for us.
 
SageBrush said:
arnis said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Just because it might not be used, doesn't mean it's useless.

AFAIK, this is exactly what useless means.
You and WetEV need a qualifier: useless for the two of you.
Far from useless for all the people who do not live in cool climates

Would be useful for really cold places, as the battery heater wouldn't use as much power due to insulation. Think Yukon. Places where the battery heater is on nearly all the time, trying hard to keep the pack above 0C.

Worse than useless for me.

Exactly useless for anyone who's range is hurt exactly as much by the active cooling than is helped by slower range loss in hot days over the life of the car.

Break even for someone in a near average climate, with the higher upfront cost being repaid by improved battery life.

Useful for the hot places.

Yes, Nissan's battery life isn't what some would want, to say the least. I'm glad I have a "lizard pack". The problem isn't the lack active cooling, for most people. Hot places, perhaps.
 
WetEV said:
DaveinOlyWA said:
One that has not been mentioned here is that Nissan picked one of the worst chemistries for heat tolerance. Now that formula has been tweaked constantly but the results do not appear to be trending consistently... to say the least

Yes. One of the worst for heat tolerance, but also one of the best for safety. No battery pack fires, unlike T esla.

Chemistry didn't hurt but most of it is the exposure the Tesla pack has verses the more compact LEAF pack which is easier to protect. Lack of fluids also meant any possible damage to the pack was not as spectacular.

The big fire that happened in WA a few years ago wouldn't have happened to a LEAF simply because the road object that punctured the Tesla pack would have missed the LEAF pack completely
 
arnis said:
There is no reason for Nissan not to offer cold weather package OR hot weather package.

Interesting idea. Sure, might be packages for several different climates. There are limits to how many options can be presented, of course.

I'd rather that Nissan not release battery chemistries that are ___. Fill in your favorite adjective for poor, mine isn't safe for work. This is the real problem.
 
WetEV said:
Break even for someone in a near average climate, with the higher upfront cost being repaid by improved battery life.
Not even close, which is Nissan's problem in a nutshell.
 
WetEV said:
Would be useful for really cold places, as the battery heater wouldn't use as much power due to insulation. Think Yukon. Places where the battery heater is on nearly all the time, trying hard to keep the pack above 0C.

Worse than useless for me.

True. Most fans don't even know that, but Tesla's pack is far from perfect. In my climate,
it's also "worse than useless". My Leaf has battery below -5*C for two months. Heating it up every day is nonsense.
Nissan's chemistry can regen and DC charge even at -5*C. That is not possible on Tesla's.
Note, Model 3 doesn't have dedicated battery heater and going to SuperCharger after battery has been cold soaked might mean an hour of idling just to get the pack warm enough to take ANY charge. Unheardof and worse than useless.
 
SageBrush said:
arnis said:
going to SuperCharger after battery has been cold soaked might mean an hour of idling just to get the pack warm enough to take ANY charge..
BS

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/lack-of-battery-heater-may-cause-very-slow-suc-charging-speed.105897/

Read and weep.
 
arnis said:
WetEV said:
Would be useful for really cold places, as the battery heater wouldn't use as much power due to insulation. Think Yukon. Places where the battery heater is on nearly all the time, trying hard to keep the pack above 0C.

Worse than useless for me.

True. Most fans don't even know that, but Tesla's pack is far from perfect. In my climate,
it's also "worse than useless". My Leaf has battery below -5*C for two months. Heating it up every day is nonsense.
Nissan's chemistry can regen and DC charge even at -5*C. That is not possible on Tesla's.
Note, Model 3 doesn't have dedicated battery heater and going to SuperCharger after battery has been cold soaked might mean an hour of idling just to get the pack warm enough to take ANY charge. Unheardof and worse than useless.

If it's -5C outside, and the Tesla's cold-soaked, I'm going to preheat my Tesla, and wouldn't you know it, that's exactly what's needed to warm up the battery to enable supercharging. And the model 3 (via software) uses its inverter as the battery heater. Nice red herring though.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
And the model 3 (via software) uses its inverter as the battery heater.

You're implying that drawing battery current by loading the motor, e.g. brakes on, and generating battery heat (internal resistance),
is what occurs, right? The inverter is very efficient, i.e. 95-98%. Or did I miss something?
 
lorenfb said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
And the model 3 (via software) uses its inverter as the battery heater.

You're implying that drawing battery current by loading the motor, e.g. brakes on, and generating battery heat (internal resistance),
is what occurs, right? The inverter is very efficient, i.e. 95-98%. Or did I miss something?

indeed the inverter is very efficient, but 2-5% loss of 100kw ( 192kw motor max draw, so reducing that for cold battery draw) still provides 2-5kw (edit: bad math earlier) of waste heat from the inverter. Add in the internal battery resistance and it adds up to more than chump change.
 
lorenfb said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
And the model 3 (via software) uses its inverter as the battery heater.

You're implying that drawing battery current by loading the motor, e.g. brakes on, and generating battery heat (internal resistance),
is what occurs, right? The inverter is very efficient, i.e. 95-98%. Or did I miss something?

Oh, and the full drivetrain losses (battery, power electronics, inverter, and motor) is ~11%+
https://model3ownersclub.com/threads/model-3-drive-unit-motor-inverter-etc-is-5-7-more-efficient-than-model-s.5252/

So you could scavenge 10kw of heat from that.
 
Here is a review by a 2018 LEAF owner who disagrees with the premise of this thread:
Gary Lieber at InsideEVs said:
The rumors about the new Leaf not being able to endure multiple DCQC without excessive charge time slowdowns proved to be unfounded. During the trip, charging behaviors were no different from previous 2011 and 2014 Leafs. The most significant challenge is that a larger battery can mean longer charge times regardless of the charge rate. All BEVs throttle their charge rates as the battery fills up, but the 2018 Leaf’s charge profile does not seem any different from earlier generations. The challenge for all BEVs is that the larger the battery, the longer time it will take. As infrastructure and BEV charge rates increase, charging times will improve, but the laws of physics apply and the bigger the battery, the longer it will always take.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
lorenfb said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
And the model 3 (via software) uses its inverter as the battery heater.

You're implying that drawing battery current by loading the motor, e.g. brakes on, and generating battery heat (internal resistance),
is what occurs, right? The inverter is very efficient, i.e. 95-98%. Or did I miss something?

Oh, and the full drivetrain losses (battery, power electronics, inverter, and motor) is ~11%+
https://model3ownersclub.com/threads/model-3-drive-unit-motor-inverter-etc-is-5-7-more-efficient-than-model-s.5252/

So you could scavenge 10kw of heat from that.

Unless the power electronics (includes the inverter) and the motor are "tightly integrated" physically with the battery, I doubt that they
transfer much heat to the battery. All the heat generation to battery results from the battery's internal losses (resistance).

Note: The MS with the 18650s has about the same battery resistance as the Leaf (~ 56 mohms). Use of the later 2170 cell in the M3 battery
most likely results in a different resistance (probably lower).
 
lorenfb said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
lorenfb said:
You're implying that drawing battery current by loading the motor, e.g. brakes on, and generating battery heat (internal resistance),
is what occurs, right? The inverter is very efficient, i.e. 95-98%. Or did I miss something?

Oh, and the full drivetrain losses (battery, power electronics, inverter, and motor) is ~11%+
https://model3ownersclub.com/threads/model-3-drive-unit-motor-inverter-etc-is-5-7-more-efficient-than-model-s.5252/

So you could scavenge 10kw of heat from that.

Unless the power electronics (includes the inverter) and the motor are "tightly integrated" physically with the battery, I doubt that they
transfer much heat to the battery. All the heat generation to battery results from the battery's internal losses (resistance).

Note: The MS with the 18650s has about the same battery resistance as the Leaf (~ 56 mohms). Use of the later 2170 cell in the M3 battery
most likely results in a different resistance (probably lower).

I don't have a reference handy, but I believe the coolant is shared between all the components of the power-train. Anyway, it's non-trivial amount of heat.

Besides, no one has proven that the model 3 can't work in cold weather yet (the earlier link was about supercharging while cold, not any pre-conditioning that's available to the user), so saying that it can't run in -5C is just speculation at best, FUD at worst. We jump through many hurdles to make the leaf work for our daily lives (timing the full charge to when we leave, not discharging below 20% and leaving it parked, not parking it outdoors under the sun when it's hot outside, etc), so it's just a matter of figuring out what the idiosyncrasies of the model 3 are.
 
Can you guys start a new thread? I'm getting tired, looking at this one for new updates on #rapidgate, only to find posts about unrelated stuff...
 
Well, AFAIK, Model 3 needs an hour to preheat the battery. I heat no more than 5 minutes.
This is far from enough for Model 3. Also I don't have that much grid power available to have two 6kW heaters blasting
on Model S/X. Battery will drain. Also going back home, car is not plugged in after work day.
Also, energy is not free, even from the grid. Like I said, heating battery like Tesla and Bolt is not reasonable.
I agree that for SuperCharging, battery should be warmed up. But not for 40kW regen.

This is not total offtopic. It's something similar as with Leaf2. Leaf2 battery gets hot too easily, Tesla/Bolt battery gets
cold too easily. I'd rather have reduced charge rate than no charging/regen at all.
 
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