Possible Widespread 2018-19 Traction Battery Quick Charge Problems

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Hi all, I know this thread has been all about concerns for the new Leaf and its battery pack and throttle charging. Many including myself have provided opinions good and bad about this subject and I still believe that the new Leaf is a very valid option.

This new article from InsideEVs is a great use-case for the new Leaf and sheds more light on what I believe (and I think Nissan believes) will be the vast majority of owners needs.

https://insideevs.com/road-tripping-in-a-2018-nissan-leaf/

A couple of highlights from this article that resonate and I quote:

"The rumors about the new Leaf not being able to endure multiple DCQC without excessive charge time slowdowns proved to be unfounded. During the trip, charging behaviors were no different from previous 2011 and 2014 Leafs. The most significant challenge is that a larger battery can mean longer charge times regardless of the charge rate. All BEVs throttle their charge rates as the battery fills up, but the 2018 Leaf’s charge profile does not seem any different from earlier generations. The challenge for all BEVs is that the larger the battery, the longer time it will take. As infrastructure and BEV charge rates increase, charging times will improve, but the laws of physics apply and the bigger the battery, the longer it will always take."

Also quoting:

"Would Clean Fleet Report recommend driving a LEAF cross-country?
No, we would not, but then again, we would not recommend driving any BEV cross country unless the driver has the patience and courage to do so. Even with the Tesla SuperCharger network currently being the most extensive, the national BEV charging infrastructure is still not there. Even vehicles with more than 250 miles of range suffer from other shortcomings that make long-distance travel impractical and unpleasant at this point, except for those with masochistic tendencies."

I think this info hits the nail on the head for why the new Leaf is a very valid choice for a value-packed BEV. Without Active Thermal Management, it will still fit a very large need for many looking to either upgrade an older EV, add another EV or get into the EV market for the first time (like me!).

You all can argue the merits of ATM or no-ATM and other features till your blue in the face, however I believe that Nissan purposefully released this new Leaf in the format it is in to capitalize on furthering growth in the mass-market sector. Tesla can't still really do this with the Model 3 even though they claim it to be a mass-market BEV. They are close, but trying to sell a 3-series BMW to the Honda Civic/Toyota Corolla crowd is tough to do just because its a premium brand.

The new Leaf may not have the best battery pack architecture, however Nissan's record of leading BEV sales worldwide (soon to be passed by Tesla) since 2010, still hold merit as serious battery issues are few considering the number of Leaf's out there. We primarily only hear bad stuff in forums where most of the good news is not communicated. That's just typical human nature.

I would encourage all to read this article and keep the faith for the new Leaf. Yes it could have been better and Nissan should be selling the Leaf with all the facts so that prospective buyers understand the charging dynamics so they can make an informed decision. However, as you can see in this article that portrays a good road-trip user example, the new Leaf is quite a capable BEV.
 
kennethbokor said:
Hi all, I know this thread has been all about concerns for the new Leaf and its battery pack and throttle charging. Many including myself have provided opinions good and bad about this subject and I still believe that the new Leaf is a very valid option.

This new article from InsideEVs is a great use-case for the new Leaf and sheds more light on what I believe (and I think Nissan believes) will be the vast majority of owners needs.

https://insideevs.com/road-tripping-in-a-2018-nissan-leaf/

A couple of highlights from this article that resonate and I quote:

"The rumors about the new Leaf not being able to endure multiple DCQC without excessive charge time slowdowns proved to be unfounded. During the trip, charging behaviors were no different from previous 2011 and 2014 Leafs. The most significant challenge is that a larger battery can mean longer charge times regardless of the charge rate. All BEVs throttle their charge rates as the battery fills up, but the 2018 Leaf’s charge profile does not seem any different from earlier generations. The challenge for all BEVs is that the larger the battery, the longer time it will take. As infrastructure and BEV charge rates increase, charging times will improve, but the laws of physics apply and the bigger the battery, the longer it will always take."

Also quoting:

"Would Clean Fleet Report recommend driving a LEAF cross-country?
No, we would not, but then again, we would not recommend driving any BEV cross country unless the driver has the patience and courage to do so. Even with the Tesla SuperCharger network currently being the most extensive, the national BEV charging infrastructure is still not there. Even vehicles with more than 250 miles of range suffer from other shortcomings that make long-distance travel impractical and unpleasant at this point, except for those with masochistic tendencies."

I think this info hits the nail on the head for why the new Leaf is a very valid choice for a value-packed BEV. Without Active Thermal Management, it will still fit a very large need for many looking to either upgrade an older EV, add another EV or get into the EV market for the first time (like me!).

You all can argue the merits of ATM or no-ATM and other features till your blue in the face, however I believe that Nissan purposefully released this new Leaf in the format it is in to capitalize on furthering growth in the mass-market sector. Tesla can't still really do this with the Model 3 even though they claim it to be a mass-market BEV. They are close, but trying to sell a 3-series BMW to the Honda Civic/Toyota Corolla crowd is tough to do just because its a premium brand.

The new Leaf may not have the best battery pack architecture, however Nissan's record of leading BEV sales worldwide (soon to be passed by Tesla) since 2010, still hold merit as serious battery issues are few considering the number of Leaf's out there. We primarily only hear bad stuff in forums where most of the good news is not communicated. That's just typical human nature.

I would encourage all to read this article and keep the faith for the new Leaf. Yes it could have been better and Nissan should be selling the Leaf with all the facts so that prospective buyers understand the charging dynamics so they can make an informed decision. However, as you can see in this article that portrays a good road-trip user example, the new Leaf is quite a capable BEV.

I think the author of the article misses the boat entirely. We're all Leaf owners here, and what some of us are finding to be troubling is the fact that the 40kwh has QCFC issues that were NOT present in the older gen vehicles.

All these chemistry and TMS discussions center around that primary issue. BEV's are supposed to get better in capability, not worse. If the charge throttling was enacted to preserve/extend battery life, then great! But at least we needed to know about that before finding out that our long-range trip planning went out the window and that we have a whole new learning curve to go through.

To be honest, I couldn't care less. I feel that Nissan isn't interested in making their leaf for single-car households, and that it is mainly for multi-car households. It just means I continue to advocate it only for a subset of my friends and family. It's just a very hard product to sell, when there are so many "caveats" with its battery. I'm using this thread for awareness, not advocacy.
 
SageBrush said:
WetEV said:
SageBrush said:

https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/lack-of-battery-heater-may-cause-very-slow-suc-charging-speed.105897/

Read and weep.

More BS.
I know you are feeling stupid for buying a LEAF, but this Tesla FUD is not going to persuade anyone against the car and you are STILL stuck with your choice. What can I say -- sucks to be you.

I have never seen an enthusiast website where trolls (tried to think of a nicer word, but couldn't) are allowed to not only post with impunity, but are also allowed to moderate. sagebrush, Oils4AsphaltOnly and Evoforce among others would at least be told to to tone down the negativity and not continually provoke other members on a normal enthusiast site. I am sure this will fall on deaf ears as the foxes are guarding the henhouse here on MNL. I'm starting to wonder if this isn't all part of Tesla's marketing strategy. Tesla trolls seem to dominate most EV oriented websites.

I am pretty much done with this place. I don't have the time to waste continually arguing the same points over and over and there are better, more legitimate places to get information on the new LEAF and EVs in general.

The LEAF is a great car and all the vitrol from all the Tesla trolls in the world can't change that.
 
Joe6pack said:
SageBrush said:
WetEV said:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads/lack-of-battery-heater-may-cause-very-slow-suc-charging-speed.105897/

Read and weep.

More BS.
I know you are feeling stupid for buying a LEAF, but this Tesla FUD is not going to persuade anyone against the car and you are STILL stuck with your choice. What can I say -- sucks to be you.

I have never seen an enthusiast website where trolls (tried to think of a nicer word, but couldn't) are allowed to not only post with impunity, but are also allowed to moderate. sagebrush, Oils4AsphaltOnly and Evoforce among others would at least be told to to tone down the negativity and not continually provoke other members on a normal enthusiast site. I am sure this will fall on deaf ears as the foxes are guarding the henhouse here on MNL. I'm starting to wonder if this isn't all part of Tesla's marketing strategy. Tesla trolls seem to dominate most EV oriented websites.

I am pretty much done with this place. I don't have the time to waste continually arguing the same points over and over and there are better, more legitimate places to get information on the new LEAF and EVs in general.

The LEAF is a great car and all the vitrol from all the Tesla trolls in the world can't change that.

You think I'm a Troll?!?! That I need to tone down my negativity?!?!

I've been burned already with a faster degrading battery than my 24kwh leaf and now I'm seeing people being burned by unexpected QCFC behaviour. Maybe I am being too harsh with the 40kwh leaf's "issues", but Nissan, the company, needs to be taken to task for quietly introducing changes that negatively impacts their customers. Blind cheerleading does NOT help .

You have a 2012 leaf, and don't live near the southwest, so you probably have no idea how _betrayed_ some of us feel.

I have a tow-hitch and actively try to demonstrate how versatile and useful my leaf is to my immediate community. I even convinced a close buddy of mine to reserve the 40kwh leaf only to backtrack after finding out about the rapid 30kwh degradation. And this QCFC throttling makes me more reluctant to believe that Nissan has their battery pack management in order. Once more data comes in from 40kwh leaf owners, we'll be better able to assess whether or not Nissan's changes helped or harmed their new leaf.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed in the meantime.
 
RegGuheert said:
Here is a review by a 2018 LEAF owner who disagrees with the premise of this thread:
Gary Lieber at InsideEVs said:
The rumors about the new Leaf not being able to endure multiple DCQC without excessive charge time slowdowns proved to be unfounded. During the trip, charging behaviors were no different from previous 2011 and 2014 Leafs. The most significant challenge is that a larger battery can mean longer charge times regardless of the charge rate. All BEVs throttle their charge rates as the battery fills up, but the 2018 Leaf’s charge profile does not seem any different from earlier generations. The challenge for all BEVs is that the larger the battery, the longer time it will take. As infrastructure and BEV charge rates increase, charging times will improve, but the laws of physics apply and the bigger the battery, the longer it will always take.


Did you do the math on that "normal" charge? :cool:
 
DaveinOlyWA said:
RegGuheert said:
Here is a review by a 2018 LEAF owner who disagrees with the premise of this thread:
Gary Lieber at InsideEVs said:
The rumors about the new Leaf not being able to endure multiple DCQC without excessive charge time slowdowns proved to be unfounded. During the trip, charging behaviors were no different from previous 2011 and 2014 Leafs. The most significant challenge is that a larger battery can mean longer charge times regardless of the charge rate. All BEVs throttle their charge rates as the battery fills up, but the 2018 Leaf’s charge profile does not seem any different from earlier generations. The challenge for all BEVs is that the larger the battery, the longer time it will take. As infrastructure and BEV charge rates increase, charging times will improve, but the laws of physics apply and the bigger the battery, the longer it will always take.


Did you do the math on that "normal" charge? :cool:


I think the takeaway from this article is that the drivers were fine with the length of time the trip took and whatever charging rates occurred during that trip. Their experience was positive, regardless of looking at the math. To them, the experience in their minds was normal.

I think many will echo this viewpoint and again feel that the new Leaf does work very well in this market space.

Yes, battery reliability is still somewhat of a question, however with Nissan's record of mass-market deliveries versus the amount of battery degradation cases being low, I'm still confident that this 40kWh pack will hold up for the vast majority of owners. Time will tell of course and since I'm getting my first EV in the new Leaf within a couple of weeks, I will be eagerly watching SoH with interest.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Joe6pack said:
SageBrush said:
More BS.
I know you are feeling stupid for buying a LEAF, but this Tesla FUD is not going to persuade anyone against the car and you are STILL stuck with your choice. What can I say -- sucks to be you.

I have never seen an enthusiast website where trolls (tried to think of a nicer word, but couldn't) are allowed to not only post with impunity, but are also allowed to moderate. sagebrush, Oils4AsphaltOnly and Evoforce among others would at least be told to to tone down the negativity and not continually provoke other members on a normal enthusiast site. I am sure this will fall on deaf ears as the foxes are guarding the henhouse here on MNL. I'm starting to wonder if this isn't all part of Tesla's marketing strategy. Tesla trolls seem to dominate most EV oriented websites.

I am pretty much done with this place. I don't have the time to waste continually arguing the same points over and over and there are better, more legitimate places to get information on the new LEAF and EVs in general.

The LEAF is a great car and all the vitrol from all the Tesla trolls in the world can't change that.

You think I'm a Troll?!?! That I need to tone down my negativity?!?!

I've been burned already with a faster degrading battery than my 24kwh leaf and now I'm seeing people being burned by unexpected QCFC behaviour. Maybe I am being too harsh with the 40kwh leaf's "issues", but Nissan, the company, needs to be taken to task for quietly introducing changes that negatively impacts their customers. Blind cheerleading does NOT help .

You have a 2012 leaf, and don't live near the southwest, so you probably have no idea how _betrayed_ some of us feel.

I have a tow-hitch and actively try to demonstrate how versatile and useful my leaf is to my immediate community. I even convinced a close buddy of mine to reserve the 40kwh leaf only to backtrack after finding out about the rapid 30kwh degradation. And this QCFC throttling makes me more reluctant to believe that Nissan has their battery pack management in order. Once more data comes in from 40kwh leaf owners, we'll be better able to assess whether or not Nissan's changes helped or harmed their new leaf.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed in the meantime.

Yes I do. So you bought or leased a 24 kWh LEAF and THEN turned around and bought or leased a 30 kWh LEAF and have been burned? How many battery pack replacements have you paid for? How many tax credits did you take? How exactly have you been burned? Now that you have a TM3 reservation the LEAF is crap. Notice the trend. Seriously, You, Sagebrush, Evoforce, EVDRIVER, etc. are the most anti-LEAF folks on this board and you all have Teslas either reserved or in you possession. Why not just move on? Why continue to drown out legitimate discussion with this endless spitefulness.
 
Joe6pack said:
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
Joe6pack said:
I have never seen an enthusiast website where trolls (tried to think of a nicer word, but couldn't) are allowed to not only post with impunity, but are also allowed to moderate. sagebrush, Oils4AsphaltOnly and Evoforce among others would at least be told to to tone down the negativity and not continually provoke other members on a normal enthusiast site. I am sure this will fall on deaf ears as the foxes are guarding the henhouse here on MNL. I'm starting to wonder if this isn't all part of Tesla's marketing strategy. Tesla trolls seem to dominate most EV oriented websites.

I am pretty much done with this place. I don't have the time to waste continually arguing the same points over and over and there are better, more legitimate places to get information on the new LEAF and EVs in general.

The LEAF is a great car and all the vitrol from all the Tesla trolls in the world can't change that.

You think I'm a Troll?!?! That I need to tone down my negativity?!?!

I've been burned already with a faster degrading battery than my 24kwh leaf and now I'm seeing people being burned by unexpected QCFC behaviour. Maybe I am being too harsh with the 40kwh leaf's "issues", but Nissan, the company, needs to be taken to task for quietly introducing changes that negatively impacts their customers. Blind cheerleading does NOT help .

You have a 2012 leaf, and don't live near the southwest, so you probably have no idea how _betrayed_ some of us feel.

I have a tow-hitch and actively try to demonstrate how versatile and useful my leaf is to my immediate community. I even convinced a close buddy of mine to reserve the 40kwh leaf only to backtrack after finding out about the rapid 30kwh degradation. And this QCFC throttling makes me more reluctant to believe that Nissan has their battery pack management in order. Once more data comes in from 40kwh leaf owners, we'll be better able to assess whether or not Nissan's changes helped or harmed their new leaf.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed in the meantime.

Yes I do. So you bought or leased a 24 kWh LEAF and THEN turned around and bought or leased a 30 kWh LEAF and have been burned? How many battery pack replacements have you paid for? How many tax credits did you take? How exactly have you been burned? Now that you have a TM3 reservation the LEAF is crap. Notice the trend. Seriously, You, Sagebrush, Evoforce, EVDRIVER, etc. are the most anti-LEAF folks on this board and you all have Teslas either reserved or in you possession. Why not just move on? Why continue to drown out legitimate discussion with this endless spitefulness.

Because I used to advocate for the Leaf! Look at my early post history.

I've been burned, because I traded in my 24kwh leaf with a slowly degrading battery for a 30kwh leaf that has a whole different learning curve (80% charge limiter was taken away, because Nissan assured me that it had no impact on battery life). I've been burned, because I looked like a fool trying to convince people of how good the leaf was only to have to back track, because the new battery doesn't behave anything like the old one, and not in a good way. The warranty coverage won't kick in until the battery has degraded to somewhere south of 60% capacity because Nissan fiddled with the battery life indicator as well.

Again, you are on the thread about "possible widespread 2018 traction battery quick charge problems". I don't think I'm out of line here. I don't bring my issues with the leaf on the thread about wiring, or lease deals, or towing.

So get off my back and focus on the topic at hand!
 
Joe6pack said:
Why continue to drown out legitimate discussion ...
That is almost a legitimate question, or at least I can turn it into one:

Because your "legitimate discussion" is Tesla trolling
Because your "legitimate discussion" is LEAF misinformation
Because your "legitimate discussion" is a pathetic attempt to censor facts
 
So just got a report from Japan that they're being throttled there as well: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/2778623/

So it's not ambient temperature related.
 
OFC it is not ambient based. Charging rate limit is set at the start of charging session. And it doesn't change during the session.
It is based solely on the hottest battery sensor reading.
 
Oils4AsphaultOnly said:
So just got a report from Japan that they're being throttled there as well: https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/posts/2778623/

So it's not ambient temperature related.
Related, in the sense that ambient affects the battery temperature. Your link mentions that the throttling occurred at the second DCFC, but the important detail is that the first DCFC was a short one. Does that mean that summer range is initial SoC + a little more ? Without more battery temperature data we don't know more about the trigger(s). With summer upon us reports should come in a flood, but this all sounds like somewhere between bad and really bad, both for the effect on longer trip driving and the implications it has for battery degradation.

Has Nissan provided any information ?
 
As summer is upon us, this is shaping up to not look very good for 2018 Nissan Leaf based on early summer reporting, from those who have driven normal highway speeds and Quick charging.
 
Evoforce said:
As summer is upon us, this is shaping up to not look very good for 2018 Nissan Leaf based on early summer reporting, from those who have driven normal highway speeds and Quick charging.
Other than the performance of quick charging, we have zero data on degradation. That is the bigger question IMO, at least for me. Of course I live in the Midwest and don't see any EV other than a Tesla having real road trip potential currently.
 
To be clear, world-wide there are no issues that have been discovered with the 2018 battery.

What has been discovered is that 97% of those that have a 2018 don't have a driving regime that requires multiple daily quick charges, and those that do, are able to complete their quick charge successfully.

The safety and longevity safeguards built into the LEAF operate as designed using the same method that ALL other BEVs quick charge systems employ, namely the throttling of the charge level to mitigate heat degradation. The result of that is that it may take a little longer to complete a quick charge session. It does not matter if you quick charge a LEAF, Bolt, Tesla or VW, all of these BEVs employ throttling of the charge to promote battery longevity, which will vary the time that a quick charge session lasts. Depending on the variables that occurs during your Quick Charge session "Your quick charge session time may vary."

Some find that intolerable, but then again, if there weren't safety systems to protect the longevity of the battery, those same outraged complainers would find that intolerable as well.
 
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