Arizona battery degradation/ heat precaution questions

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GaryHere

Well-known member
Joined
May 15, 2018
Messages
74
Hi. Thnx to all for answering my QC Port/6.6kw questions in my other post.

I'm getting the 2015 S today and live in Arizona. I'm well aware of the past lawsuit against Nissan, history of battery degradation from heat, etc.

Do i have to worry more about heat and the battery degrading faster with a 2015 than the old 2011 Leaf?

I still SMH after reading the past battery problems to why Nissan hadn't changed to thermal protection (like my Volt had) on its batteries (ya money I get that, but it's a no brainer to protect the most important part of an EV)

I suppose that's another post :D

Back to this post.


For protection of the battery from heat I know to:

Not QC frequently in one day or at all

Park in shade/carport especially here in Arizona

Don't charge if it is 80% full


Any other tips, comments on this would be appreciated.


Thank you all. Gary
 
Forumite GerryAZ has a Leaf in Phoenix and has had good luck with it. You could search for his posts or PM him for specific advice.

In general, the common consensus is that high SOC and high temps together are the worst combination for degradation. That and very low SOC which is true for any Li battery. In a nutshell, try to keep the SOC between 20% and 80% as much as possible and keep the battery as cool as possible. Remember the battery is large and heavy and changes temperature very slowly. If it is sitting, it will stay close to the average temperature of the day since it heats/cools so slowly. High charge or discharge rates will heat it internally so a QCDC session or high speed highway driving will increase the battery temperature significantly. Once it's warm, it will take a long time to cool off since there is no active cooling available.

I wouldn't sweat (no pun intended...) the details too much. Just try to drive it and enjoy it. I'd avoid leaving it sit at > 80% SOC or below 20% SOC. Going over or under for a short period is fine but don't make a habit of letting the car sit at 99% SOC or 5% SOC. These batteries will degrade but hopefully you will get years of use out of it before it loses enough range to cause problems. By that point, I'd expect newer and better cars to be available and maybe even better replacement packs for the Leaf. I think of battery degradation somewhat like getting that first dent in your new car. It's going to happen so the best strategy is to just accept it and enjoy the car for what it is - transportation. As long as it gets you where you need to go, it's all good.
 
goldbrick said:
Forumite GerryAZ has a Leaf in Phoenix and has had good luck with it. You could search for his posts or PM him for specific advice.

In general, the common consensus is that high SOC and high temps together are the worst combination for degradation. That and very low SOC which is true for any Li battery. In a nutshell, try to keep the SOC between 20% and 80% as much as possible and keep the battery as cool as possible. Remember the battery is large and heavy and changes temperature very slowly. If it is sitting, it will stay close to the average temperature of the day since it heats/cools so slowly. High charge or discharge rates will heat it internally so a QCDC session or high speed highway driving will increase the battery temperature significantly. Once it's warm, it will take a long time to cool off since there is no active cooling available.

I wouldn't sweat (no pun intended...) the details too much. Just try to drive it and enjoy it. I'd avoid leaving it sit at > 80% SOC or below 20% SOC. Going over or under for a short period is fine but don't make a habit of letting the car sit at 99% SOC or 5% SOC. These batteries will degrade but hopefully you will get years of use out of it before it loses enough range to cause problems. By that point, I'd expect newer and better cars to be available and maybe even better replacement packs for the Leaf. I think of battery degradation somewhat like getting that first dent in your new car. It's going to happen so the best strategy is to just accept it and enjoy the car for what it is - transportation. As long as it gets you where you need to go, it's all good.

Hi there! Thanks much for the reply; very helpful for sure and reassuring!

I wanted a Leaf way back when they first arrived; then all the battery issues turned me off to it but it kinda stuck in my head as I like the cars looks, interior and exterior.

I will pay for a shaded site at my apt. complex to park since I dont want it parked here in the Sun. I dont have a place to charge as Im in an apt now so have to now use public Blink here, which isnt cheap but looking for a rental home where I could charge.

I think also with the Leaf that we are lucky that the capacity is right there to see when buying used.
Other vehicles that capacity isnt so obvious without hooking it up to equipment.

I eliminated many this way.
There was one dealer trying to sell me a 2011 with 6 bars for 8000! I told him about the bars, he had no clue (obviously)


And as you said, in the future it will get better and better for battery issues.

Hopefully more charging stations too. When I see the numerous gas stations, I think, wow how lop-sided this is in terms of these could be charging stations instead :D

Thanks again and I may PM the AZ Leaf owner if I have additional questions.


Have a great day!
 
Be sure to check out the PlugShare app. https://www.plugshare.com/ It will show you the charging stations any where and you can often find free ones that may be convenient for you in shopping centers, etc. I'm at 5100 miles on my Leaf and I've only charged at home twice :mrgreen:

It's easy for me since I have free charging at work but I've used the PlugShare app to find some other freebies as well for when I'm getting coffee, etc. Good luck and enjoy your Leaf!
 
goldbrick said:
Be sure to check out the PlugShare app. https://www.plugshare.com/ It will show you the charging stations any where and you can often find free ones that may be convenient for you in shopping centers, etc. I'm at 5100 miles on my Leaf and I've only charged at home twice :mrgreen:

It's easy for me since I have free charging at work but I've used the PlugShare app to find some other freebies as well for when I'm getting coffee, etc. Good luck and enjoy your Leaf!

Thank you for the reply. Yes Plugshare is great. Can't find too many free ones though.


Got the Leaf and drove it.

Had a Fiat 500e and the Fiat had way more power though it shows less torque in stats.


Here is a pic of the batt temp at 6 bars. Wish it were a bit lower but this is Southern AZ :D

00egcQ5.jpg
 
Look up TEVA in your area. This is an electric vehicle association. Tucson Electric Vehicle Association to be exact. Many former and current Leaf owners too! Very helpful group with fun outings and great advice. I assume that you are maybe somewhere near there. Welcome! We may cross paths in the future.

Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it in comparison, at best. The thing to do now is just drive it and enjoy it as long as possible. It will degrade about the same whether you drive it much or not. So to use it to the fullest, is the best use for the return of investment.
 
Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it in comparison, at best. The thing to do now is just drive it and enjoy it as long as possible. It will degrade about the same whether you drive it much or not. So to use it to the fullest, is the best use for the return of investment.

If six temp bars will be typical for him, with few excursions above seven, I think the Lizard pack will last MUCH longer than a 2011 Canary pack.
 
LeftieBiker said:
Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it in comparison, at best. The thing to do now is just drive it and enjoy it as long as possible. It will degrade about the same whether you drive it much or not. So to use it to the fullest, is the best use for the return of investment.

If six temp bars will be typical for him, with few excursions above seven, I think the Lizard pack will last MUCH longer than a 2011 Canary pack.

Six temp bars will not be typical for him... Unless he is in the higher elevations. 7-8 plus will be typical during the day and especially as summer sets in.
 
Evoforce said:
Look up TEVA in your area. This is an electric vehicle association. Tucson Electric Vehicle Association to be exact. Many former and current Leaf owners too! Very helpful group with fun outings and great advice. I assume that you are maybe somewhere near there. Welcome! We may cross paths in the future.

Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it in comparison, at best. The thing to do now is just drive it and enjoy it as long as possible. It will degrade about the same whether you drive it much or not. So to use it to the fullest, is the best use for the return of investment.

I actually live in Tucson and thanks much for the TEVA tip!

LeftieBiker said:
Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it in comparison, at best. The thing to do now is just drive it and enjoy it as long as possible. It will degrade about the same whether you drive it much or not. So to use it to the fullest, is the best use for the return of investment.

If six temp bars will be typical for him, with few excursions above seven, I think the Lizard pack will last MUCH longer than a 2011 Canary pack.

That sounds positive. :)

I thought Tucson might be a little better on the battery than Phoenix temp wise especially at night since we cool off faster here due to the higher elevation.

I guess it takes the battery a lot of time to change its temp. I thought by now, midnight, in the 70s, it would go down on bars but it's still at 6. Aww well.

I'm just going to enjoy the wonderful car I have for as long as I can as Evoforce mentioned, cannot wait till tomorrow to really drive it more ;)

Good night all. Gary
 
GaryHere said:
I guess it takes the battery a lot of time to change its temp. I thought by now, midnight, in the 70s, it would go down on bars but it's still at 6. Aww well.
It does. The battery has a lot of thermal mass and takes awhile to adapt to ambient temps.

The stupid battery temp display has huge overlapping ranges along w/some black box algorithm: http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery#Battery_Temperature_Gauge.

The only way to really see pack temps is to get something like Leaf Spy (been a user of the Pro version on Android since July 2015). I'm pretty sure that my when my pack temp rises above 59 F, that's when it transitions from 4 bars to 5 bars.
 
Evoforce said:
Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it in comparison, at best.
Disagree. The pre-4/2013 packs were terrible.

When the Leaf had only been out about 21 months, we'd already seen 4 bar losers (e.g. Blue494 at https://web.archive.org/web/20160113132627/http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326).

I don't recall any 4 bar losers on the lizard packs at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532 yet. We first learned of "lizard" packs in late June 2014 being in model year 2015 Leafs: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&p=374490.

Even the better 4/2013+ packs (Leftie calls them "wolf" pack) are no match for Phoenix heat: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995.

GerryAZ has posted numerous comparisons of the lizard pack vs. '11 pack. Search for posts by him. A few quick examples I found:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25161&p=516094&hilit=bars+2011#p516094
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=24209&p=499072&hilit=2011+by+bars#p499072
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23929&p=493935&hilit=2011+by+bars#p493935
 
I thought Tucson might be a little better on the battery than Phoenix temp wise especially at night since we cool off faster here due to the higher elevation.

I guess it takes the battery a lot of time to change its temp. I thought by now, midnight, in the 70s, it would go down on bars but it's still at 6. Aww well.

The cool nights will be a definite plus. The pack temp will seem unchanging until the wee hours (in part because of the huge variance in temps within "bars"), but then will drop quite a bit by the time the day gets hot again. Try to charge after 3:00am if possible.
 
cwerdna said:
GaryHere said:
I guess it takes the battery a lot of time to change its temp. I thought by now, midnight, in the 70s, it would go down on bars but it's still at 6. Aww well.
It does. The battery has a lot of thermal mass and takes awhile to adapt to ambient temps.

The stupid battery temp display has huge overlapping ranges along w/some black box algorithm: http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Battery#Battery_Temperature_Gauge.

The only way to really see pack temps is to get something like Leaf Spy (been a user of the Pro version on Android since July 2015). I'm pretty sure that my when my pack temp rises above 59 F, that's when it transitions from 4 bars to 5 bars.

I figured that for that display (and others), there is another way of seeing now finer detail about things.

Good to know.


cwerdna said:
Evoforce said:
Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it I'm comparison, at best.
Disagree. The pre-4/2013 packs were terrible.

When the Leaf had only been out about 21 months, we'd already seen 4 bar losers (e.g. Blue494 at https://web.archive.org/web/20160113132627/http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=228326).

I don't recall any 4 bar losers on the lizard packs at http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=24532 yet. We first learned of "lizard" packs in late June 2014 being in model year 2015 Leafs: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=17168&p=374490.

Even the better 4/2013+ packs (Leftie calls them "wolf" pack) are no match for Phoenix heat: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?p=473995#p473995.

GerryAZ has posted numerous comparisons of the lizard pack vs. '11 pack. Search for posts by him. A few quick examples I found:
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=25161&p=516094&hilit=bars+2011#p516094
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=24209&p=499072&hilit=2011+by+bars#p499072
http://www.mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=23929&p=493935&hilit=2011+by+bars#p493935

Good links there for me to check out today, thank you much.

LeftieBiker said:
The cool nights will be a definite plus. The pack temp will seem unchanging until the wee hours (in part because of the huge variance in temps within "bars"), but then will drop quite a bit by the time the day gets hot again. Try to charge after 3:00am if possible.

Yes a definite plus for Tucson for our temps being a bit lower after sunset and early am because of elevation.

I.e it's 0600 now and Tucson is 59° while Phoenix is already 71.

One other plus for this cars' battery is that it's history shows the location of all the 19,000 miles/use as being in the Bay Area.

^^ Thanx so much for all the replies. It's a tremendous help !
 
Evoforce said:
Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it in comparison, at best. The thing to do now is just drive it and enjoy it as long as possible. It will degrade about the same whether you drive it much or not. So to use it to the fullest, is the best use for the return of investment.

Yes, based on what I've found, i.e. mostly anecdotal, there's little to no statistical data to corroborate the conclusion that the 2015 has
significantly less heat degradation than earlier Leafs, especially the late 2013 (Wolf). Added some info here; http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20178&start=20#p527346

Another "piece" of data from here; http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#181
Loss of one battery capacity bar (15%)

Sept 17, 2016
lorax
Gilbert, AZ
34,450 miles
22 months
8/14
2015 model year
311006

Again, just anecdotal.
 
lorenfb said:
Evoforce said:
Anyway... as far as your lizard battery holding up better than 2011 battery, not much better. Maybe, you will get 6ish months more out of it in comparison, at best. The thing to do now is just drive it and enjoy it as long as possible. It will degrade about the same whether you drive it much or not. So to use it to the fullest, is the best use for the return of investment.

Yes, based on what I've found, i.e. mostly anecdotal, there's little to no statistical data to corroborate the conclusion that the 2015 has
significantly less heat degradation than earlier Leafs, especially the late 2013 (Wolf). Added some info here; http://mynissanleaf.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=20178&start=20#p527346

Another "piece" of data from here; http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Real_World_Battery_Capacity_Loss#181
Loss of one battery capacity bar (15%)

Sept 17, 2016
lorax
Gilbert, AZ
34,450 miles
22 months
8/14
2015 model year
311006

Again, just anecdotal.

Not good, thanks for sharing.

Personally I think all these batteries are vulnerable regardless of what Nissan claims to have changed chemistry wise.

This is based on zero thermal cooling on the Leaf unlike the Volt, Fiat 500e has.

I don't think air cooling cuts it for protection with heat.

But I don't care, I'm gonna put that outta my head cause I've had a love affair with the Leaf way back to 2012 so as others stated: just enjoy the car !

I have no regrets purchasing this.

I couldn't even sleep well last night as I was excited to hop in it and go.

Thanks all.
 
At 61,361 miles as of this morning, the original battery in my 2015 continues to do MUCH better than my 2011 (original and replacement batteries from Japan) under similar driving conditions. The "Gids" at full charge are still higher than my 2011 (Silver 679) had the morning of the Phoenix Range Test in September 2012 with only 14,500 miles and 15 months of use. I do notice that L1 or lower current L2 charging and/or gentle driving at lower speeds tend to temporarily reduce the AHr, SOH, and Hx numbers reported by LEAF Spy Pro. The numbers return to normal with 6 kW charging and my normal daily commute of mostly freeway driving. DCQC charging also improves those numbers. Note, I almost always charge to 100% and usually discharge the battery rather deeply between charges.

My experience with the 2015 SL is that slow charging seems to be more detrimental under my driving/charging conditions so I recommend that you drive the way you want to fit in with other traffic and charge at the highest L2 rate available for your normal daily charging. Try to have SOC (state of charge) below 75% whenever the car will be parked for extended time (such as at the airport). Otherwise, just charge it and drive it!
 
GerryAZ said:
At 61,361 miles as of this morning, the original battery in my 2015 continues to do MUCH better than my 2011 (original and replacement batteries from Japan) under similar driving conditions. The "Gids" at full charge are still higher than my 2011 (Silver 679) had the morning of the Phoenix Range Test in September 2012 with only 14,500 miles and 15 months of use. I do notice that L1 or lower current L2 charging and/or gentle driving at lower speeds tend to temporarily reduce the AHr, SOH, and Hx numbers reported by LEAF Spy Pro. The numbers return to normal with 6 kW charging and my normal daily commute of mostly freeway driving. DCQC charging also improves those numbers. Note, I almost always charge to 100% and usually discharge the battery rather deeply between charges.

My experience with the 2015 SL is that slow charging seems to be more detrimental under my driving/charging conditions so I recommend that you drive the way you want to fit in with other traffic and charge at the highest L2 rate available for your normal daily charging. Try to have SOC (state of charge) below 75% whenever the car will be parked for extended time (such as at the airport). Otherwise, just charge it and drive it!


Good to hear from you. Another AZ guy :D

Good info there for sure, thanks much. Good to hear + feedback on DCQC; seems all I read is its not good to do that much.

So storage at a high SOC seems to be a thing not to do. I think I remember that when I had a Volt as well.

I am very cautious here with where I park my car. I just went to my gym and parked way far away under a nice shady tree. I liked the walk as it warms me up for my gym.

And just now I scored a nice total shade spot in my apt. complex here and its only 330p here in Tucson.

Thanks much and have a nice weekend Gerry.


Gary
 
Evoforce said:
Six temp bars will not be typical for him... Unless he is in the higher elevations. 7-8 plus will be typical during the day and especially as summer sets in.

I'm still at 6 bars after a lot of driving/charging this weekend and it's been 100 daily.

Of course we are not at July temps yet here in Tucson so the 6 bars remaining thru that period is a guess for now. :D
 
Reached 7 bars today on battery temp. but oddly not till hours after a one hr L2 charge to only 70%

I dare to try connecting to a CHAdeMO

:roll:
 
GaryHere said:
Reached 7 bars today on battery temp. but oddly not till hours after a one hr L2 charge to only 70%

I dare to try connecting to a CHAdeMO

:roll:


Does this mean that the lizard battery isnt so lizardy after all :evil:

7 bars is nothing--I had 9 bars Friday evening after a quick charge from 5% to 92% SOC in 32 minutes. I then drove at governed speed for a little ways at an undisclosed location. Traction motor draw was about 40 kW with high rolling resistance sport performance tires and no wind on a level surface at governed speed. The battery temperature was down to 8 bars by the time I returned home late in the evening; 7 bars the next morning after a full charge at L2 when I left for work at 4:45 AM; and 6 bars after being parked under covered parking all day.

I stopped obsessing over battery temperature a long time ago because I bought the first LEAF (and then the replacement) to drive for daily transportation around town. I record battery temperatures when I record charging data, but have never chosen to leave the car parked just because the battery was hot.
 
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