GRA
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ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the month

Sun May 20, 2018 4:22 pm

https://www.autoblog.com/2018/05/18/german-cities-can-ban-older-diesel-cars-immediately/

BERLIN - German cities are entitled to ban older diesel vehicles from streets with immediate effect to bring air pollution levels in line with European Union rules, Germany's top administrative court confirmed on Friday.

Germany opened the door to diesel bans in February when it allowed environmental groups to sue cities which fail to enforce Europe's clean air rules, despite fierce lobbying to oppose bans from carmakers.

In a 30-page statement on the ruling which was published on Friday, Germany's administrative court in Leipzig said there should be no grace periods for driving bans. . . .

Immediate driving bans on major roads or road sections would be legitimate and could affect all models excluding those meeting the latest Euro-6 emissions standards, the ruling statement said. Euro-6 was phased in 2014.

For wider city areas encompassing a multitude of main roads and side streets, the court recommended a phased implementation of bans, starting with older cars that meet Euro-4 emissions standards. The Euro-4 standard was replaced by Euro-5 beginning in 2009.

The Leipzig court had said in February that Euro-5 vehicles should not be banned until Sept. 1, 2019. Tradesmen and some residents too should be exempted, it said at the time. . . .
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Sun May 20, 2018 5:06 pm

Wow that is fairly aggressive in retroactive reaching. So cars bought in 2009 through 2013 under the guidelines in place at the time the car was made and sold can be banned from use now? A car buyer in Europe doesn't even get over 5 years of use before it get's banned?

I'm in favor of reducing emissions, but such retroactively punitive actions against lawful (and due to misleading advertising also innocent) buyers is going to spark some nasty backlash against environmentalism.
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SageBrush
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Sun May 20, 2018 5:29 pm

^^ Except the cars are illegal and on the roads due to lies. Save the backlash for the automakers.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Sun May 20, 2018 9:52 pm

SageBrush wrote:^^ Except the cars are illegal and on the roads due to lies. Save the backlash for the automakers.


Really? Every diesel sold from 2009 to 2013 is illegal? Odd that only VW is in real trouble. A lot of other brand diesels are running around Europe from that timeframe. Also, doesn't VW already have their settlements worked out? So piling on penalties on owners at this point just shafts them, not the automaker.
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SageBrush
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Sun May 20, 2018 10:11 pm

DarthPuppy wrote:
SageBrush wrote:^^ Except the cars are illegal and on the roads due to lies. Save the backlash for the automakers.


Really? Every diesel sold from 2009 to 2013 is illegal? Odd that only VW is in real trouble. A lot of other brand diesels are running around Europe from that timeframe. Also, doesn't VW already have their settlements worked out? So piling on penalties on owners at this point just shafts them, not the automaker.

Yes, they almost all emit multiples of Euro 5 allowed emissions.

VW has a settlement with the German government. Now they can deal with the consumers they lied to.
The German consumer, government and manufacturers have a reasonably aligned interest in migrating to domestic electric cars. I expect (hope ?) that compromise can be worked out that offers consumers a substantial discount to turn in their diesels for EVs. Perhaps the manufacturers can pay 50%, and the consumer and government 25% each, for the upgrade cost. The consumer will make up the difference in fuel costs, the government will keep their industrial base, and the manufacturers keep their customers.

The only real fly in the ointment is the currrent snail pace of battery production capacity. They better get a move on and start investing 10x - 50x their current rate.
Last edited by SageBrush on Sun May 20, 2018 11:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Sun May 20, 2018 10:17 pm

DarthPuppy wrote:
SageBrush wrote:^^ Except the cars are illegal and on the roads due to lies. Save the backlash for the automakers.


Really? Every diesel sold from 2009 to 2013 is illegal? Odd that only VW is in real trouble. A lot of other brand diesels are running around Europe from that timeframe. Also, doesn't VW already have their settlements worked out? So piling on penalties on owners at this point just shafts them, not the automaker.


Those who have Netflix should watch the episode of "Dirty Money" entitled "Hard NOx." It shows in great detail not just how Volkswagen cheated the world by selling very dirty diesel engines as "Clean Diesel" but also how all of the OTHER European manufacturers did - and still do - the same thing. This latter fact is much less known than the former. Basically, because of the way EU clean air enforcement works, the manufacturers, including Mercedes, shop for jurisdictions with lax enforcement, then build auto plants there, to further discourage them from removal of the huge, amazing loophole in the emissions laws there: there is an exception to emissions regulations for "Protection of the engine." That's right: they "protect" the diesel engines rather than the people affected by them. For years the EU has been wondering why their cities have repeatedly failed to meet the NOx limits set by the EU. They now know the reason: "clean" diesel engines. They have measured NOx levels in suburban kindergartens that exceeded the acceptable level for breathable air, despite there being no major highways nearby.

This is a slow-motion train wreck, and the auto manufacturers are trying very hard to keep it out of the news. They have threatened journalists with huge, punishing lawsuits, but the issue is slowly, slowly, reaching the public perception - in the EU. Not yet in the US..
Last edited by LeftieBiker on Mon May 21, 2018 1:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Sun May 20, 2018 11:58 pm

Government and industry replacing the diesels with EVs at some point in the future would be really neat if that could be worked out somehow. I'm not that optimistic.

However, banning the use of these cars in these locations now will hit immediately. And it will hit the wrong targets. People are driving these for a reason - probably because they need to get to work. They simply can't afford to dump all these cars and buy EVs. Banning them now without a real replacement program in place is very unfair to them. Yes, we can attempt to blame the makers. But if we don't provide a real solution and a realistic transition period, we will be punishing the wrong target. And that is very likely to come back to bite in the form of the wrong candidates getting elected and environmentally-friendly policies gutted.
Last edited by DarthPuppy on Mon May 21, 2018 12:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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DarthPuppy
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 12:11 am

Let's muddy the waters a little bit further, I read somewhere last week that SJWs are starting to accuse us driver's of EVs are responsible for child labor violations in some of the source countries for the materials for our batteries? Shouldn't these cities be banning EVs if they are going to be socially responsible?

Hmm, that would hit us unfairly since we all have near new cars with long durability and will have to discard them promptly as they are now banned. But hey, if diesel owners don't deserve a transition period, why should we?

It is starting to sound like the only morally decent transportation option is FCV...

Let's all be responsible, buy a FCV to help the transition, and start campaigning for this common sense technology and ban other modes now. No need for transition periods. Ban ICEV, PHEV and EVs now, not just the sales of these, but ban the use of them. I'm sure the millions of current car owners will accept that the hardships they are facing are all the automakers' fault and there will not be any backlash against the government for these reasonable regulations at the next election. Hope the FCV and infrastructure will be put in place by wise and efficient government and industry before too long.

And I don't plan to dismiss the fact that it will hit the wrong targets simply because we are not the ones hit.

I would much favor banning the manufacture and sale of new diesel cars. That hits the automakers, not the consumer. Yes, it will take time to get the existing diesels off the road. A government/industry settlement to provide replacements can help tremendously with that. But we got to get the horse in front of the cart. Banning the use of the existing cars now is not the solution.
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LeftieBiker
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 1:26 am

Yes, we can attempt to blame the makers.


The makers of the cars are to blame. They know this and have tried to hide their guilt. There is no need to "attempt to blame" them.

I would much favor banning the manufacture and sale of new diesel cars. That hits the automakers, not the consumer. Yes, it will take time to get the existing diesels off the road. A government/industry settlement to provide replacements can help tremendously with that. But we got to get the horse in front of the cart. Banning the use of the existing cars now is not the solution.


You don't seem to understand the magnitude of the problem you want to keep as an interim measure. These engines are killing people every year, in large numbers. They have prevented Europe from achieving the air quality that they have determined they need to achieve in order to prevent thousands of needless deaths from high NOx levels. They could just replace each diesel car with a 10 year old gasoline car, and far fewer people would die as a result. You are essentially regurgitating the manufacturers' propaganda (minus the new car ban), probably with no realization of doing so. It isn't as if there is a worldwide shortage of automobiles, new or used. What is needed is the will to ban diesel engines, at the very least from urban areas. What isn't needed is 10 years of excuses for delay following 10 years of criminally negligent homicide by VW, Mercedes, and the other EU diesel manufacturers.
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SageBrush
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Re: ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the mo

Mon May 21, 2018 6:22 am

DarthPuppy wrote: But if we don't provide a real solution and a realistic transition period

"Realistic" to a diesel owner is for the the life of *their* car.
The rest of Europe is not willing to wait.

Solution: swap car or take public/clean transport in urban centers.

And honestly ? Diesel buyers are not exactly victims in this mess. They bought the cars to save a few pennies on petrol and enjoy the diesel torque and were happy to swallow the manufacturer swill about "clean diesel" -- if they cared about pollution at all. I'm not going to lose any sleep over any forced contribution to clean up the mess, although I do agree that the manufacturers should shoulder the majority of the burden.

If the diesel owners are unhappy, they can "petition" the manufacturers for more assistance.
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