ABG: German cities can ban older diesel cars immediately Hamburg will start enforcing new rules by the end of the month

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DarthPuppy said:
Nubo said:
As a cyclist who had to breathe the stuff, I never bought into the “clean diesel” bullshit.

Congrats on being ahead of the curve in realizing diesels weren't as clean as we were told.
Well I think a lot more people could have been, by direct experience. Some were obviously, enough to overcome bureaucratic inertia and vested interests to force the investigation.

As to the ban the question is how to best balance the concerns of all. Is it right to make some folks bear the hardship of not being able to take their diesels into city centers in order to mitigate health problems of others? That answer lies in details that I don’t have. My instincts run towards buyback, destroy, and compensate with the mfg bearing the burden and incarceration of those responsible for the deception.
 
I'm a biker also and yes, you can always tell when a diesel vehicle passes you on the highway. The human nose is an excellent sensor and quite sensitive to some things.

I did watch the Dirty Money/Hard Nox video. It was quite an eye-opener, especially since I used to own a diesel Passat wagon. I always like that car and appreciated the fact that it got 50 mpg when on long highway trips but the emissions stuff is pretty scary. Of course, any ICE car contributes pollution to the atmosphere but in different mixtures.

I didn't really dig the repeated references to Hitler and the ominous music that would start up every time the VW plant or a VW executive was on the screen. I think the facts speak loud enough for themselves without the additional 'artistic flourishes' added. Certainly worth a watch for anyone who cares about the air they breath.
 
LeftieBiker said:
keep in mind that I've been suggesting manufacturer buybacks and payments. Banning diesels from urban areas isn't the same as confiscating the cars and laughing at the owners while denying them any compensation. That idea is largely of your own imagining.

Manufacturer buybacks and payments coupled with the ban is a solution I find very palatable. Getting these off the streets immediately with the burden on the car makers is a solution I can fully back.

My own imagining? I'm not aware of any required buybacks that would take these off the streets without burden to the owners. Did I miss something? If so, then I apologize.

The OP linked article just has the cars being banned. Nowhere in that article is any linkage to the manufacturer bearing the burden from this. Is there a settlement where the car companies are being responsible and providing the compensation so a ban isn't a burden on the car owners? Most of the news I've seen about settlements has lots of money going to governments, not so much to the victims (either those who made the mistake of buying a diesel or to those suffering health problems). Also, most of the news I've seen is about U.S. issues, not those in Germany. But I may have missed something since I'm not normally on this forum every day and I don't own a diesel so I'm not vested in staying on top of the diesel settlement saga.

However, I doubt such fully responsible settlements are in place. If so, then I would think these cars would already be off the road. Something seems to be missing.
 
goldbrick said:
I'm a biker also and yes, you can always tell when a diesel vehicle passes you on the highway. The human nose is an excellent sensor and quite sensitive to some things.

I did watch the Dirty Money/Hard Nox video. It was quite an eye-opener, especially since I used to own a diesel Passat wagon. I always like that car and appreciated the fact that it got 50 mpg when on long highway trips but the emissions stuff is pretty scary. Of course, any ICE car contributes pollution to the atmosphere but in different mixtures.

I didn't really dig the repeated references to Hitler and the ominous music that would start up every time the VW plant or a VW executive was on the screen. I think the facts speak loud enough for themselves without the additional 'artistic flourishes' added. Certainly worth a watch for anyone who cares about the air they breath.

I will definitely look into watching that. I don't subscribe to Netflix, but know someone who does.

I too used to drive a 240D way back before much was known about the trouble we are in. Based on how much I liked that car and my interest in environmentalism, I almost bought a 2012 Jetta TDI. Fortunately, I went with the Leaf. But if my commute at the time was what it is now so the Leaf wan't a viable option, I would have gone with the Jetta (or Volt except I'm leary of GM after watching Who Killed the Electric Car) believing it was clean. So yes, I was almost in that sub group.
 
http://fortune.com/2018/02/06/volkswagen-vw-emissions-scandal-penalties/

This article from February suggests that there hasn't been anything done for the diesel owners in Germany or elsewhere in Europe. It states that while VW is paying $15B in the US, they haven't paid a single Euro. It further states "Yet in Germany and Europe, it’s been a totally different story. There, VW has not offered compensation to any customer." And eventually it also includes "scores of consumer lawsuits have been tried in Germany and Volkswagen appears to be winning most of them".

The $15B for 580k diesels in the US equates to $43k per car. That is enough for them to buy back every single one, but I somehow doubt the settlement has that much money going to the car owners. I suspect most is going to the governments and lawyers.
 
VW didn't just spontaneously offer to buy cars in the US - they were forced to do it by the EPA. Until the EU gets after VW in a big, serious way, they will behave the same there as they are now. Here's the problem: VW is to them like GM is to us. They aren't an import brand, they are the Home Team, and one of the biggest employers as well. They also know exactly how to game the system. Nonetheless, expect to see them in court in the EU within two years.
 
Yes unfortunately VW has tremendous political clout over there. That is precisely why I'm convinced the ban will hit the consumer, not VW. Hence my concern with the ban unfairly hitting the wrong target. I'm all for replacing these cars, just with the correct party bearing the burden. And I think that little detail needs to be worked out sooner than later.

In the US with the $15B settlement addressing 580k cars, I'm much more open to banning these in our cities. But I doubt any place outside of west coast would seriously consider that. And with current Federal administration, that would be blocked. :(
 
DarthPuppy said:
I'm all for replacing these cars, just with the correct party bearing the burden. And I think that little detail needs to be worked out sooner than later.(
Let the two parties involved work it out: the car buyer and the manufacturer.
The government's job is to protect air quality.
 
SageBrush said:
Let the two parties involved work it out: the car buyer and the manufacturer.
The government's job is to protect air quality.

No, the government's job is to protect victims. Unfortunately as noted in the article linked above, they (in the form of the German courts) aren't doing that part of the job, thus your first sentence is seriously flawed too. And now, they are doubling down on it by having city governments pass bans that further victimize victims rather than solve the problem in a fair fashion.
 
No, the government's job is to protect victims.

The government's job is to protect people and the environment as mandated. You keep spouting ideas that would make an average republican blush. Try subjecting this situation to a cost/benefit analysis (something that most liberals and leftists hate but the Right loves) Look up the actuarial value of a European life, and compare loss of 38,000 lives a year (multiplied by that value) to the value lost by the owners of diesel vehicles that can't be used in urban areas. You don't even have to assign extra weight to those lives because they are being taken away instead of just diminished. Your problem from word one is that you clearly think it's more important to save money than to save lives, despite your protestations to the contrary. Sure it's rather unfair that diesel owners will suffer a financial loss from these urban diesel bans. The people dying are suffering a hell of a lot more. We all agree that VW et al should be paying to make the diesel owners whole, but unlike you we are not willing to make that a prerequisite while people are actually dying from the "clean diesel" crime.
 
DarthPuppy said:
SageBrush said:
Let the two parties involved work it out: the car buyer and the manufacturer.
The government's job is to protect air quality.

No, the government's job is to protect victims.
You make me laugh.

The polluter as the "victim."
 
Man. I wonder what I would do in a situation like this!

I have a diesel and an electric. But the Leaf no longer goes where I need to go. It's an expensive lawn ornament that I'm having a hard time selling. If I had to give up my diesel then I'd be up a creek without a paddle! So basically I'd have to travel 140 or more miles each day by bicycle in weather that regularly reaches -40°F (-40°C) each winter over mountain passes that would require me to ascend and descend some 10,000ft (about 3,000m) per trip because 1) there is no public transportation, 2) there is no EV charging infrastructure and 3) I don't have enough money right now to buy a newer gasoline powered car because of my poor investment in the Leaf.

On the other hand why can't technology fix this?! My diesel is over 30 years old and gets 55mpg! Why don't newer gasoline cars get that kind of mileage? Maybe a new Prius would, but that's about it. Gasoline just jumped some 50 cents in the past couple months and regular unleaded is now over $3 per gallon! Not too long ago and even premium was less than $3. The fuel costs of gasoline cars kind of hinders me from buying a newer gasoline car since I have so far to drive.

And are gasoline emissions really that much better? Try smelling the air after a brand new gasoline car goes by around here. FIrst, in the bitter cold gasoline engines run rich and their catalytic converters don't do anything for quite a while as the engine warms up. Second, with all these mountains you get a terrible smell following any gasoline car up any hill since they have to go into high load enrichment at which point the catalyitc converter is doing nothing. Which is worse? Unburned hydrocarbons and CO from gasoline or NOx from diesel? I'd be willing to bet that the gasoline cars around here don't get near the emissions they are supposed to because of the temperature and terrain.

I guess the only solution is to buy a CNG car. Too bad they don't make any anymore. You got to love the idea of buying a $5,000 fuel tank every 15 years. At least that's not as expensive as a $8,500 battery! But then there's fracking! Oh no! Now we're back to a bad option again. Maybe riding my bike hundreds of miles per day is the only good option. We'll there goes my marriage!

I'd dump my diesel right now if I could get a decent gasoline car with payments of $100 or less per month that got at least 50mpg, or one with $200 payments if I could sell my Leaf for at least half of what I bought it for a year and a half ago.
 
IssacZachary said:
... and gets 55mpg! Why don't newer gasoline cars get that kind of mileage? Maybe a new Prius would, but that's about it.
An older Prius, too. That is your best choice.

I'm curious, would you be able to move your LEAF to Durango ?
I might be able to help you sell it there.
 
IssacZachary said:
So basically I'd have to travel 140 or more miles each day by bicycle in weather that regularly reaches -40°F (-40°C) each winter over mountain passes that would require me to ascend and descend some 10,000ft (about 3,000m) per trip ... Maybe riding my bike hundreds of miles per day is the only good option. We'll there goes my marriage!

It sounds as if you actually view this as an option. If so, hats-off to you!
 
IssacZachary said:
I'd dump my diesel right now if I could get a decent gasoline car with payments of $100 or less per month that got at least 50mpg, or one with $200 payments if I could sell my Leaf for at least half of what I bought it for a year and a half ago.

I appreciate your concerns. if 'dump my diesel' means sell it, then you really haven't accomplished much. The buyer would be buying to use it, so there is no real gain in terms of helping the environment other than to send the automakers a message when you buy a new environmentally friendly option. To get it off the road and stop the pollution would truly require killing it. From the rest of your post, I'm guessing that is not financially an option. If you only financially viable option is to sell it, then you might be better keeping it until you can afford to make a complete switch. As someone who appreciates the environmental impact, you would minimize your use for only those trips that are beyond the Leaf range and maximize your Leaf usage. This is likely better than any buyer of the diesel would do.
 
SageBrush said:
An older Prius, too. That is your best choice.
I've been looking up Prius information as the Prius seems like a logical choice. The 2013 and newer Mitsubishi Mirage also has my attention. The April 2018 Consumer Reports magazine seems to highly recommend any Prius. I was thinking of a perhaps getting a used Prius C. The one thing that scares me is that I've seen three Prius around here for sale, all with dead traction batteries. It makes me wonder if the cold here in Gunnison damages NiMH batteries. I feel I need to research some more.

SageBrush said:
I'm curious, would you be able to move your LEAF to Durango ?
I might be able to help you sell it there.
I believe I could drive it there. I could make it to Montrose, then to Ouray, then to Silverton, then Durango. As long as I was able to charge to 100% at most of those areas I'd be able to drive it. Or I could get my brother to tow me. Either way, the problem would be finding time. But I do want to work on getting the right car for us this summer, and although both my wife and I like the Leaf, I do think I need to get rid of it to make that move.

LeftieBiker said:
The NOx is much worse. We have evolved to deal with the former, but not the latter. IIRC you can lower your NOx emissions by using biodiesel.
Yes, but biodiesel also doesn't work in freezing weather. And I do live in about the coldest place in Colorado. Plus there's nowhere in around here to buy biodiesel that I know of, other than making my own from used veggie oil from restaurants. I've also considered water injection, emulsified fuel, CNG conversion, and even making a device that would strain out all the nitrogen from the air. But I don't think I have time for science projects right now.

Nubo said:
IssacZachary said:
So basically I'd have to travel 140 or more miles each day by bicycle...

It sounds as if you actually view this as an option. If so, hats-off to you!
Ya, when I was single I only had a bicycle. I went everywhere on that. Things change when you have a family though. I basically got my first petrol powered vehicle just a few weeks before getting married. Interestingly my wife never had owned a car before we got married either. But she was into public transportation, not bicycling.

DarthPuppy said:
To get it off the road and stop the pollution would truly require killing it.
That's another thing about the diesel. This diesel car is immortal. I've owned over 20 cars in my lifetime and have never seen a car as reliable as this diesel. It's got at least 500,000 miles on it and still starts, even in subzero weather. We've tried replacing it with some other used gasoline cars with far fewer miles but those kept breaking down and we kept coming back to our backup diesel. For an example, I once got a 2003 Chevy for $1,000 with front end damage. I got the damage fixed, replacing the entire front clip, stabilizer bar and a whole lot more, but kept having a terrible misfire problem. I replaced the ignition system, the injection system, the ECU, all the sensors and the car still had a horrible problem. There were several times that we went to go somewhere in the Chevy and then had to come back and get the VW diesel.

I gave up and ended up trading that Chevy for $700 as part of the down payment on the Leaf. That was a lot more than the $400 I was originally offered. And I was so happy with the Leaf. Like the diesel, it doesn't hardly need any maintenance or repairs, just simple things like a new battery and new windshield wipers. But now I need to drive further than what the Leaf can drive. So I'm back to the diesel again.

I'll probably just keep the diesel as a backup. Nobody is going to give me anything more than $500 for this car, if that. And I'm somewhat skeptical about the reliability of newer gasoline cars, so having a backup would be nice.
 
Well it sounds like keeping it as a backup is a good plan. Anyone else who buys it would likely use it more than you will. At least this plan will minimize the usage.

And I hear you about the durability. A long time ago before I became more aware of the environmental issues, I had a diesel. They are very efficient, durable and require little maintenance. They definitely are very appealing until you know the downsides for air quality.
 
IssacZachary said:
SageBrush said:
An older Prius, too. That is your best choice.
I've been looking up Prius information as the Prius seems like a logical choice. The 2013 and newer Mitsubishi Mirage also has my attention. The April 2018 Consumer Reports magazine seems to highly recommend any Prius. I was thinking of a perhaps getting a used Prius C. The one thing that scares me is that I've seen three Prius around here for sale, all with dead traction batteries. It makes me wonder if the cold here in Gunnison damages NiMH batteries. I feel I need to research some more.
Cold is fine for batteries, but your story of dead Prius is interesting. I don't know the answer. Perhaps these are cars bought used with battery refurbs ?
It might be an opportunity for you though: buy one dirt cheap and self-install a new battery. Don't waste your money on refurbished; buy new for about $2000.

I'm thinking about putting my LEAF up for sale since a Tesla is coming in the next month or two and my wife prefers that we keep our Prius Prime. My little town has no LEAF market but I think Durango does and it is only 45 miles away. I'll let you know how we fare, and I don't mind letting you park your LEAF at my home for a month if you want to try the Durango market.
 
Gen II Prius packs tend to last roughly 10 years. Some do last longer, but it's common for them to fail after 10 years. It costs a couple of thousand to have a refurbished one installed, IIRC. I think the Gen III packs are likely to last longer, but have no hard numbers for you.
 
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