2016 30 kWh Battery data

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johnlocke said:
Valdemar said:
If not a defective batch then they must have knowingly signed up for 1 or potentially 2 warranty replacements in hotter areas. I just cannot believe they didn't have the data after the original 11/12 pack debacle. Who knows, perhaps they ran the numbers and between the lower battery manufacturing costs and EV credits they still come out ahead overall, and it was simply a business decision.
Remember that this is a world-wide decision on their part. We are not hearing about battery failures in Europe or Japan so Nissan has probably decided to just bear the warranty costs. That is much cheaper than issuing a recall to replace defective batteries. First, it spreads the costs out over a longer period. Second, only obvious failures will be replaced so marginal batteries will remain in service. Third, you still have to go through the warranty process which will deter some and some procrastinators will time out on the warranty.

Nissan doesn't seem to care about their reputation as an EV builder so I have to assume that the Leaf is ultimately just a compliance car built to allow Nissan to sell larger ICE vehicles like trucks and SUV's with much higher margins in the US. Leafs do well enough in Europe and Japan and maybe their plan is to cede the US market to Tesla and GM.

Yup. From the moment Nissan decided to sell the battery factory the writing was on the wall that the LEAF is a compliance car in the US. This is pretty obvious to anybody who is not blinded by fanboism.

Even our boy Ed cannot find the fortitude to defend the LEAF anymore. He just hangs around to throw out Tesla FUD.
 
SageBrush said:
Yup. From the moment Nissan decided to sell the battery factory the writing was on the wall that the LEAF is a compliance car in the US. This is pretty obvious to anybody who is not blinded by fanboism.

The world's best selling electric car is a limited production, limited volume, only produced to meet requirements "compliance car"?

Trolling, eh?
 
WetEV said:
SageBrush said:
Yup. From the moment Nissan decided to sell the battery factory the writing was on the wall that the LEAF is a compliance car in the US. This is pretty obvious to anybody who is not blinded by fanboism.

The world's best selling electric car is a limited production, limited volume, only produced to meet requirements "compliance car"?

Trolling, eh?
The Leaf is a Compliance Car for the US. For the rest of the world it's a production car with limited range. It's being sold here only because Nissan has to meet compliance rules to sell the ICE stuff. If Nissan was serious about PEV in the US, it would be working to correct the idea that the Leaf is a disposable car that has very low resale value. It wouldn't end up every year having blowout sales trying to move Leaf inventory. Those huge end of year discounts are the giveaway that It's a compliance vehicle. When you have to sell a given number to meet compliance rules, you end up practically giving them away at the end of the year.
 
johnlocke said:
The Leaf is a Compliance Car for the US. For the rest of the world it's a production car with limited range.
Yup.

Although why that should be true is open to conjecture. Some thoughts --
  • US drivers demand more range
    The US is overall too hot a climate for this car
    Europe has a better developed DCFC infrastructure to mitigate the LEAF range
    The LEAF is living on borrowed time until Model 3 reaches Europe
    Nissan kept its UK battery plant but sold its US plant

It's probably also worth pointing out that "Europe" when it comes to the Nissan LEAF is heavily weighted towards cold climate Norway
 
johnlocke said:
The Leaf is a Compliance Car for the US.

Meaning it isn't a Tesla, eh?

Compliance cars are only sold in CARB states, and perhaps only California.

Leaf is sold in 50 states. I can't buy a compliance car without a trip to at least Oregon or more likely California.


johnlocke said:
It wouldn't end up every year having blowout sales trying to move Leaf inventory. Those huge end of year discounts are the giveaway that It's a compliance vehicle. When you have to sell a given number to meet compliance rules, you end up practically giving them away at the end of the year.

Nissan sells almost all their cars at a discount. KBB for example shows the 2018 Nissan Maxima SV as having MSRP of $35,905 and a "fair purchase price" $33,517.

Even the GT-R. The GT-R 2017 "Premium" has a MSRP of $111,685 and a "Fair market range" of $95,241 - $103,456. Not enough sales of the GT-R 2018 to give a range.

The Leaf is no different. The discount will vary from month to month, just like the other Nissan cars.
 
WetEV said:
johnlocke said:
The Leaf is a Compliance Car for the US.

Meaning it isn't a Tesla, eh?

Compliance cars are only sold in CARB states, and perhaps only California.

Leaf is sold in 50 states. I can't buy a compliance car without a trip to at least Oregon or more likely California.


johnlocke said:
It wouldn't end up every year having blowout sales trying to move Leaf inventory. Those huge end of year discounts are the giveaway that It's a compliance vehicle. When you have to sell a given number to meet compliance rules, you end up practically giving them away at the end of the year.

Nissan sells almost all their cars at a discount. KBB for example shows the 2018 Nissan Maxima SV as having MSRP of $35,905 and a "fair purchase price" $33,517.

Even the GT-R. The GT-R 2017 "Premium" has a MSRP of $111,685 and a "Fair market range" of $95,241 - $103,456. Not enough sales of the GT-R 2018 to give a range.

The Leaf is no different. The discount will vary from month to month, just like the other Nissan cars.
It's still a compliance car. The fact that Nissan offers it in all fifty states doesn't change the fact that California requires manufacturers to meet certain MPG goals fleet-wide and the Leaf is Nissan's answer to that. Almost all new cars get sold at a discount from MSRP but the Leaf at year end gets truly massive discounts. It's possible to sometimes buy a brand new Leaf for as little as $12,000 after all the discounts and tax credits. California and Colorado have had $10,000 utility company credits available from time to time plus $4000 Nissan cash and $500 loyalty cash. Plus the $7500 federal tax credit and a $2500 California tax credit. That's in addition to whatever dealer discounts you can beat out of them. That's far and away more than you would ever see on that Maxima.

Nissan takes advantage of all those discounts and credits to move Leafs. That improves their fleet MPG numbers and allows them to sell lots of trucks and SUVs with much better profit margins. I doubt that they ever make any profit on a Leaf. That's why they don't care whether the battery is crap in an otherwise very nice little car. If they get sold and then thrown away that's just another potential sale down the road.

The situation in Europe is different because the batteries hold up better there and the demand for electrics is better due to high gas prices. Renault is very successful there with the ZOE and Nissan also sells the Leaf under the Nissan brand as well. It is interesting to note that the ZOE had a 40KWH battery over year sooner than the Leaf despite the powertrain and chassis being nearly identical on both cars. Nissan appears to be more interested in the European market for electrics than in the US market. Nissan is simply not as interested in the US market as they are in the Japanese and European markets.
 
Curious. So in Canada we probably have a climate similar to Europe. Are we also expected to have less problems? Our 2016 SV was built in April 2016. I can’t say we have noticed much range loss yet. It’s actually been flawless, like freakin flawless.

I never thought I would be a compliance car fan. Guess I am. ;).
 
johnlocke said:
WetEV said:
johnlocke said:
It's still a compliance car.

Then you have a new definition of compliance car. What other words have you redefined?
You didn't reply to my arguments, just suggested I'm lying somehow. Sad

Just like you don't bother to reply to my arguments. Pot, meet kettle.

A compliance car is sold only to meet regulatory requirements. As such is sold in CARB states only at best, and California at worst.
The Leaf isn't a compliance car, as is sold in all 50 states and many foreign countries.

A compliance car is sold only in the numbers needed to meet regulatory requirements.
The Leaf has the world record for the most electric car sold in history, far more than regulatory requirements.

A compliance car is sold at a loss.
The Leaf is profitable, according to Nissan's statements.
 
webeleafowners said:
Curious. So in Canada we probably have a climate similar to Europe. Are we also expected to have less problems? Our 2016 SV was built in April 2016. I can’t say we have noticed much range loss yet. It’s actually been flawless, like freakin flawless.

I never thought I would be a compliance car fan. Guess I am. ;).

Similar climate, similar experience. Its too bad I was not able to take mine a further down the road. It has (so far) had THE best battery pack ever!
 
johnlocke said:
WetEV said:
johnlocke said:
It's still a compliance car.

Then you have a new definition of compliance car. What other words have you redefined?
You didn't reply to my arguments, just suggested I'm lying somehow. Sad

I wouldn't respond to comments that throw disjointed facts together and fails to tie them together either.

you live in a state that offers everything and that has apparently blinded you. try living in a state that barely offers half a dozen EVs.
 
webeleafowners said:
Curious. So in Canada we probably have a climate similar to Europe. Are we also expected to have less problems? Our 2016 SV was built in April 2016. I can’t say we have noticed much range loss yet. It’s actually been flawless, like freakin flawless.

I never thought I would be a compliance car fan. Guess I am. ;).

Another 2016 sv canadian owner here, however not that optimistic. Owning it for exactly one year. The range as expected went down winter time but hasn't come back in full despite warm weather. Annual battery report is "all normal ".

Got leafspy and here are some interesting observations:
It appears that few cells are significantly out of balance and have higher voltage than others. The charging stops when those reach top voltage while others appear undercharged. I charge to 100% almost all the time so plenty of chances to do proper balancing. Inability to charge most cells to allowed maximum seem to reflect the value of mileage decrease.

Here are leafspy reports at various SOC.

100% according to car charge gauge.



approximately 32%
 
ezmike said:
webeleafowners said:
Curious. So in Canada we probably have a climate similar to Europe. Are we also expected to have less problems? Our 2016 SV was built in April 2016. I can’t say we have noticed much range loss yet. It’s actually been flawless, like freakin flawless.

I never thought I would be a compliance car fan. Guess I am. ;).

Another 2016 sv canadian owner here, however not that optimistic. Owning it for exactly one year. The range as expected went down winter time but hasn't come back in full despite warm weather. Annual battery report is "all normal ".

Got leafspy and here are some interesting observations:
It appears that few cells are significantly out of balance and have higher voltage than others. The charging stops when those reach top voltage while others appear undercharged. I charge to 100% almost all the time so plenty of chances to do proper balancing. Inability to charge most cells to allowed maximum seem to reflect the value of mileage decrease.

Here are leafspy reports at various SOC.

100% according to car charge gauge.



approximately 32%

Hi Mike. I'm sure we have lost some range. Its just not obvious to us. We do a certain route about a 150 KM with a laid back pace (lower speed limits, curvy upsy downsy). Last year If we combined the GOM with the trip odometer it would add up to around 212 kilometer. This year it is around 200 so we probably have lost some range. Freakin thing has been amazingly reliable though. Flawless. In 2020 when we upgrade, if the Trade war with the US is over we would consider another leaf. Or if the trade war is still on if Canada starts importing them from Japan again we'll consider a leaf. If the trade war with the US continues and we are still considered a security threat (read enemy) of the USA we'll look into a BMW or Mercedes something or other to replace the Leaf in 2021. It serves us well.
 
ezmike said:
webeleafowners said:
Curious. So in Canada we probably have a climate similar to Europe. Are we also expected to have less problems? Our 2016 SV was built in April 2016. I can’t say we have noticed much range loss yet. It’s actually been flawless, like freakin flawless.

I never thought I would be a compliance car fan. Guess I am. ;).

Another 2016 sv canadian owner here, however not that optimistic. Owning it for exactly one year. The range as expected went down winter time but hasn't come back in full despite warm weather. Annual battery report is "all normal ".

Got leafspy and here are some interesting observations:
It appears that few cells are significantly out of balance and have higher voltage than others. The charging stops when those reach top voltage while others appear undercharged. I charge to 100% almost all the time so plenty of chances to do proper balancing. Inability to charge most cells to allowed maximum seem to reflect the value of mileage decrease.

Here are leafspy reports at various SOC.

100% according to car charge gauge.



approximately 32%
What is the manufacture date ?
If you bought it in June 17 and it's a 16 model it was sitting on the lot for many months.
If it was charged to 100% on the lot then that would explain the degradation you are seeing through most of the pack.
 
ElectricEddy said:
ezmike said:
webeleafowners said:
Curious. So in Canada we probably have a climate similar to Europe. Are we also expected to have less problems? Our 2016 SV was built in April 2016. I can’t say we have noticed much range loss yet. It’s actually been flawless, like freakin flawless.

I never thought I would be a compliance car fan. Guess I am. ;).

Another 2016 sv canadian owner here, however not that optimistic. Owning it for exactly one year. The range as expected went down winter time but hasn't come back in full despite warm weather. Annual battery report is "all normal ".

Got leafspy and here are some interesting observations:
It appears that few cells are significantly out of balance and have higher voltage than others. The charging stops when those reach top voltage while others appear undercharged. I charge to 100% almost all the time so plenty of chances to do proper balancing. Inability to charge most cells to allowed maximum seem to reflect the value of mileage decrease.

Here are leafspy reports at various SOC.

100% according to car charge gauge.



approximately 32%
What is the manufacture date ?
If you bought it in June 17 and it's a 16 model it was sitting on the lot for many months.
If it was charged to 100% on the lot then that would explain the degradation you are seeing through most of the pack.

Manufactured November 16. Yes, about half year on the lot, however it doesn't look like classical degradation. It doesn't explain why few cells have consistently higher voltage than others.
 
@ezmike
What kind of range do you have now compared to when it was purchased ?
Until that voltage diff reaches I think about 300mv or more it may not be recognized as a battery defect with Nissan
 
ElectricEddy said:
@ezmike
What kind of range do you have now compared to when it was purchased ?
Until that voltage diff reaches I think about 300mv or more it may not be recognized as a battery defect with Nissan

Thanks ElectricEddy. Will keep an eye on disparity.
Range hovers around 155 - 160km in mostly city driving for 20 Celsius no accessories etc.
 
ezmike said:
Got leafspy and here are some interesting observations:
It appears that few cells are significantly out of balance and have higher voltage than others. The charging stops when those reach top voltage while others appear undercharged. I charge to 100% almost all the time so plenty of chances to do proper balancing. Inability to charge most cells to allowed maximum seem to reflect the value of mileage decrease.
We have seen this before in cars where modules have probably been replaced and the pack not manually balanced. The balancing shunts are weak (about 10mA) and don't seem to be able to correct any significant inbalance. As you have noted, your range will be significantly impacted by most cells charge being terminated early by these high cells.

When they are this much out they don't seem to be able to correct themselves and the solution here in New Zealand has been to open the pack and manually balance which may be a long term fix but only if cells are well matched. We lack any Nissan warranties on used imports so aren't waiting for Nissan to fix this.
 
ezmike said:
webeleafowners said:
Curious. So in Canada we probably have a climate similar to Europe. Are we also expected to have less problems? Our 2016 SV was built in April 2016. I can’t say we have noticed much range loss yet. It’s actually been flawless, like freakin flawless.

I never thought I would be a compliance car fan. Guess I am. ;).

Another 2016 sv canadian owner here, however not that optimistic. Owning it for exactly one year. The range as expected went down winter time but hasn't come back in full despite warm weather. Annual battery report is "all normal ".

Got leafspy and here are some interesting observations:
It appears that few cells are significantly out of balance and have higher voltage than others. The charging stops when those reach top voltage while others appear undercharged. I charge to 100% almost all the time so plenty of chances to do proper balancing. Inability to charge most cells to allowed maximum seem to reflect the value of mileage decrease.

Here are leafspy reports at various SOC.

100% according to car charge gauge.



approximately 32%

I am guessing its the same cells out of whack all the time? That is a greater than .1 volt difference. I think that qualifies for a trip to the dealer. Another thing you could try is charging to 50-60% and let it sit 3-4 days if possible to see if that helps. Balancing happens all the time so the only reason for top end balancing is for greater range and the range improvment would only be a few miles at most.

On my 2018, I have a few outlier cells but not to that extreme but have only done 15 full charges including only 3 in last 3 months. Nothing to worry about since the range is sufficient and the risk of a high SOC far outweighs my desire to have a better balanced pack
 
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