2018 LEAF Vs Tesla Model 3 SR: A Comparison Table for the USA

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SageBrush said:
So what? You don't think VW is a big enough customer to have financial leverage?
I have no idea, but of one thing I am certain: this is not an investment, which was your attempted argument.
And absent direct investment at Tesla levels, I doubt they will ever be cost competitive.
No, my argument was that VW and other brands have taken the steps necessary to ensure access to batteries; you were arguing that they wouldn't have that because they didn't own Gigafactories. Whether or not batteries are a core competency that you should bring in house is debatable, at least now when we're at least one, probably two and maybe 3 generations of battery tech away from having full replacement for ICE* battery packs. Doing all the R&D and building the production lines for a rapidly obsolescing tech may make a company stick with it long past its sell-by date; that may be why Nissan stuck with AESC for so long. Having suppliers make the investments in new tech may well be the way to go for now, if not forever. Or not, but either can work.

SageBrush said:
My last comment about your Eeyore routine wrt to Tesla SuperChargers: in 4/2017 Tesla wrote a news note saying that 5200 Superchargers were installed and they intended to reach 10,000 by the end of the year to support Model 3. As of ~ now, there are 9,955 and expansion is progressing even more rapidly than last year.
So what you're acknowledging is that they blew through yet another voluntary schedule (this one for just 8 months in the future) by 5 months and counting, despite considerably increasing the average number of stalls at each SC site (getting the permits and contracts, then the people and equipment on site is the major time waster. Building more stalls is relatively trivial once there). Per supercharge.info, there were 8,352 stalls worldwide on 12/30, so that's at least an improvement compared to their usual ~70% actual vs. announced achievement rate, but again largely due to installing more stalls at each site. At the end of last year they were claiming that they'd get to 15k by the end of this year. Let's see if they make that, or blow yet another schedule. Personally, I'm more interested in expansion of the SC network rather than capacity increases, but both are necessary.

*Full replacement for ICEs = comparable price/range/weight/volume/longevity/durability/recharge rate.
 
WetEV said:
GRA said:
*Full replacement for ICEs = comparable price/range/weight/volume/longevity/durability/recharge rate.

Ever consider that you might not get everything before we get to full replacement?
Considered it, but lean towards not. I expect that what we'll see is a mix of BEV/FCEV/biofuels replacing fossil-fueled ICEs initially, although it's certainly possible that we'll be willing/able to accept some tradeoffs in one or more of the above areas (definitely not price, as far as privately-owned cars) and go BEV only at an earlier date. Range/recharge times will probably be an acceptable tradeoff (given a dense enough charging infrastructure), and price/longevity likewise (i.e. if packs are cheap enough. a mid-life replacement may be fine).
 
LeftieBiker said:
I think that the real problem with the M3 is that they tried to build a sedansportscarluxuryminicoupe and they ended up with something that highlights some of the downsides of each style. Spartan interior, harsh ride, mediocre fit and finish - all for better performance and range. It's another near(?) miss like the Bolt. In fact, this topic should be comparing the Bolt as well, because it's more like the M3 than is the Leaf Too.

Remember when Homer Simpson built an "every-man" car for his brother's car company? The result was as expected. Too much everything, no realistic platform to actually produce it. The Model-3 looked great on paper. Elon is finding the complexities of actual production, to include his flawed supply chain and quality control deficiencies, deeply constrain deliveries. Same exact problems he experienced in the early days of the Model-S launch.
 
GRA said:
So what you're acknowledging
No Eeyore. I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world in a year and change.
They do things at a dizzying pace.

You can compare to the VW money rollout of CCS if you like: one thumb should do.
 
SageBrush said:
...I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world...

Anyone have the current global numbers for DC charging units for Tesla, CCS, and CHAdeMO?
 
iPlug said:
SageBrush said:
...I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world...

Anyone have the current global numbers for DC charging units for Tesla, CCS, and CHAdeMO?

Also China, which has their own standard, has a large charging network.
 
WetEV said:
iPlug said:
SageBrush said:
...I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world...

Anyone have the current global numbers for DC charging units for Tesla, CCS, and CHAdeMO?

Also China, which has their own standard, has a large charging network.

How many, if you know?

CHAdeMO currently claims:
18,030 global
2,320 USA
6,260 Europe

They claim:
CHAdeMO-compatible charge points have the largest global coverage of all fast charging standards globally

https://www.chademo.com
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
So what you're acknowledging
No Eeyore. I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world in a year and change.
They do things at a dizzying pace.
If being 5+ months overdue on an 8 month schedule is a dizzying pace to you, added to all their previous failures to meet their own schedules. I call it piss-poor business. BTW, name-calling? Do you wish to discuss things like an adult, or as if we're a couple of 12-year olds?

SageBrush said:
You can compare to the VW money rollout of CCS if you like: one thumb should do.
Give it a year and we'll see if I agree with you. Right now they're starting from where Tesla was in 2012 (seven SCs at the end of the year). At the moment they have four open with another 11 'Coming Soon'. Hopefully their version of 'Coming Soon' is more realistic than Tesla's, and really means 'Under Construction' or at least 'Permits granted'.
 
GRA said:
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
So what you're acknowledging
No Eeyore. I'm telling you that Tesla functionally doubled the already best, most extensive EV charging network in the world in a year and change.
They do things at a dizzying pace.
If being 5+ months overdue on an 8 month schedule is a dizzying pace to you, added to all their previous failures to meet their own schedules. I call it piss-poor business. BTW, name-calling? Do you wish to discuss things like an adult, or as if we're a couple of 12-year olds?

SageBrush said:
You can compare to the VW money rollout of CCS if you like: one thumb should do.
Give it a year and we'll see if I agree with you. Right now they're starting from where Tesla was in 2012 (seven SCs at the end of the year).

Don’t bother with him. He gets upset and calls people names or insults them. If you call him out, he gets butthurt and blocks you. Our conversation in this thread was ridiculous. I got a bit heated once, but I tried to be reasonable throughout. After insulting me and being hard-headed for several pages, he just blocked me.
 
GRA said:
You caused me to wonder what I would call piss poor business practices or egregious examples of over promise, under deliver and I realized I didn't have to look far. This IS the place for discussion of the Nissan LEAF, after all.

Which is probably why I find your comments so ridiculous. You ignore the elephant and choke on the gnat.

In case your memory is selective AND impaired, let me remind you of the Nissan promise in 2011: 10 years of battery use down to 70% capacity.

Re: CCS
Why are you counting from today ? Why are you giving them another year of leeway ? Even you must see the hypocrisy and double standard in your opinions.
 
SageBrush said:
GRA said:
You caused me to wonder what I would call piss poor business practices or egregious examples of over promise, under deliver and I realized I didn't have to look far. This IS the place for discussion of the Nissan LEAF, after all.

Which is probably why I find your comments so ridiculous. You ignore the elephant and choke on the gnat.

In case your memory is selective AND impaired, let me remind you of the Nissan promise in 2011: 10 years of battery use down to 70% capacity.
I pay attention to claims versus results. Tesla's claims have always been seriously over-optimistic when it comes to schedules, and some of their other decision have been bad. I've also criticized Nissan heavily and at length for their batteries and their treatment of early adopters. I've also praised them and others when they do something good, e.g. crediting Tesla with more or less single-handedly making BEVs cool and practical for other than the usual fringe groups, and being primarily responsible for making the switch to EVs unstoppable. But I give no one a free pass, and will criticize them if I feel they are acting irresponsibly, stupidly or both.

SageBrush said:
Re: CCS
Why are you counting from today ? Why are you giving them another year of leeway ? Even you must see the hypocrisy and double standard in your opinions.
Because they just opened the first ones last month (just as Tesla opened the first four SCs on Nov. [Edit: Oct.] 19th, 2012). What date should I start from? More importantly, I'll judge them by how well they meet their own schedules.


[Edited to correct a couple of typos]
 
GRA said:
I'll judge them by how well they meet their own schedules.
Good. It is way past time for you to become informed of their published schedules.

So, you have been critical of Nissan. If you say so. Why have you stopped ? Once a promise is fulfilled, does it drop off your plate ? Has the Nissan LEAF promise been fulfilled, albeit 7 years late ?

I'm tired of your double standard BS. Welcome to my ignore list.
 
Wow. Sage got upset that someone was being totally reasonable while disagreeing with him and put them on the ignore list. What a totally unexpected thing to have happen.
 
jonathanfields4ever said:
Wow. Sage got upset that someone was being totally reasonable while disagreeing with him and put them on the ignore list. What a totally unexpected thing to have happen.

Shocked, shocked.
 
Just how is that Nissan Fast Charge network coming along? Really?

and the battery degradation lawsuits? yeah, thought so.


So over it. ONE company is doing everything they can to bring about sustainable transport. The others? Just falling further behind the EV curve.

Oh well.

Carry on with your FUD. it's pretty entertaining.
 
finman100 said:
Just how is that Nissan Fast Charge network coming along?

This was just answered in this thread with specific numbers yesterday. Do you disagree with the numbers CHAdeMO reported?
 
iPlug said:
finman100 said:
Just how is that Nissan Fast Charge network coming along?

This was just answered in this thread with specific numbers yesterday. Do you disagree with the numbers CHAdeMO reported?
I think they are accurate, but misleading since Japan is heavily over-represented. Compare networks outside Japan and the ChadeMo network fades. Compare networks outside urban centers and the ChadeMo network is hard to find. Adjust for malfunctioning stations. Uggh. Adjust for 45 kW charge rates (at best) and the ChadeMo network ... sucks.
 
SageBrush said:
I think they are accurate, but misleading since Japan is heavily over-represented. Compare networks outside Japan and the ChadeMo network fades. Compare networks outside urban centers and the ChadeMo network is hard to find. Adjust for malfunctioning stations. Uggh. Adjust for 45 kW charge rates (at best) and the ChadeMo network ... sucks.

Agree, CHAdeMO is not for everyone. In my suburban neck/region of the woods and where I travel, there are many times more useable CHAdeMO locations than Tesla Supercharging locations. Although more prevalent in urban areas, there are plenty of CHAdeMO stations on the west coast in between urban centers. As they say, YMMV.

All the players relatively neglect the "fly over" areas, though Tesla does a much better job in these areas to support long distance travel.

Yes, the CHAdeMO blanket in Japan is quite dense. Are there numbers for Tesla and CCS in just North America to compare with CHAdeMO?

Agree, would be helpful to get CHAdeMO charge rates up 2-10x and of course vehicles that can charge at that rate.
 
Urban centric ChadeMo and throttled LEAFs ...
Is there really anything to discuss here ? It is obvious that ChadeMo cars are not suitable for long distance travel.

I'd go so far as to characterize ChadeMo as a fast destination charger. Typically out of the way and/or expensive so not widely used and fairly useless. Five years ago I thought ChadeMo had a smart idea: enable EV metropolitan travel in a city radius of 50 miles. It has failed in the US, in part for reasons that I should have seen and in part by the advance of technology and 250+ mile range EV cars.

  • Bottom line: 50 L2 stations spread out over an area are a lot more useful as destination chargers than one ChadeMo.
  • Second bottom line: TRUE high speed highway chargers are 100x more useful to modern EVs than a million destination chargers. I've thought about my future use of chargers in my Tesla and I realize that if public destination chargers ceased to exist tomorrow I would be at worse mildly inconvenienced. That is a death knell for ChadeMo: it is too expensive and not fast enough
  • One last point: My Tesla charges at up to 48 Amps on L2 using an EVSE Tesla sells for ~ $500. Compare that to the cost of a ChadeMo station that will charge a warmed up battery LEAF at about twice the speed. The cheap Tesla L2 provides me enough range in a short time to reach a SuperCharger if needed. That is an awesome solution.
 
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