2018 Leaf - Charger throws fault on 240V

My Nissan Leaf Forum

Help Support My Nissan Leaf Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
GerryAZ: I'm not sure I know of an available 208v 14-50 outlet (I had not seen the other post about charging issues with 208v until responding to your post). Does anyone know if RV campsites typically use that?

Looking at the 2018 LEAF Owner's Manual it does explicitly read "The NISSAN Genuine L1 &L2 EVSE draws 30 amps continuously while charging the Li-ion battery with AC 220–240 volt outlet.", and one would expect that there are certain operating requirements. On the back of my 29690-5SA0A EVSE it reads 60 Hz, 120 AC, and 240 AC. One would reasonably expect some lower limit for brownout conditions, yet also want a portable EVSE that operates at most RV campgrounds.
 
Typically RV park will be 240 volts. I understand there was a recent code change to allow 208 volts. Recent in NEC could be ten years or more.

Virtually all RVs only have 120v appliances so the 240 vs 208 is a mute point with no effect on operation.
 
I don't know if there are any RV parks that supply their 14-50 receptacles from 208Y/120-volt sources, but there are many 14-50 and 6-50 receptacles in industrial/commercial installations supplied from 2 phases of 208Y/120-volt 3-phase sources so portable EVSEs with 14-50 or 6-50 plugs should be designed to work with 208-240-volt circuits and allow for some voltage drop. I just checked my Clipper Creek HCS-50P and its nameplate indicates the circuit requirements are 208-240 volts and 50 amperes. The installation manual indicates the voltage range is 185-264 volts. Also, my Nissan-branded AeroVironment EVSE at home (purchased in 2011) lists the voltage range as 208-240.
 
The way I figure it, the designer would have had to work at it to design one that was 120v compatible, but NOT 208v compatible. The DC power supply for the electronics has to work on both 120v and 240v, so probably covers the range in between. Same deal with the contactors. I suspect someone actually programmed it to reject 208v through sheer ignorance.
 
davewill said:
The way I figure it, the designer would have had to work at it to design one that was 120v compatible, but NOT 208v compatible. The DC power supply for the electronics has to work on both 120v and 240v, so probably covers the range in between. Same deal with the contactors. I suspect someone actually programmed it to reject 208v through sheer ignorance.
Agreed.

However, I will note that there IS a change in what happens at 120 VAC versus 240 VAC. Either the EVSE or the OBC or both needs to be programmed to limit the current at the lower voltages to 12A while it will have a higher limit for 240 VAC. As such, there is typically a blackout voltage somewhere between about 150 VAC and 180 VAC.
 
RegGuheert said:
davewill said:
The way I figure it, the designer would have had to work at it to design one that was 120v compatible, but NOT 208v compatible. The DC power supply for the electronics has to work on both 120v and 240v, so probably covers the range in between. Same deal with the contactors. I suspect someone actually programmed it to reject 208v through sheer ignorance.
Agreed.

However, I will note that there IS a change in what happens at 120 VAC versus 240 VAC. Either the EVSE or the OBC or both needs to be programmed to limit the current at the lower voltages to 12A while it will have a higher limit for 240 VAC. As such, there is typically a blackout voltage somewhere between about 150 VAC and 180 VAC.

Since the new Nissan unit uses an adapter attached to the 14-50 plug, I expected that it would work like my welder and sense the presence of the adapter to switch to 120 volts. Also, the EVSE needs to change the pilot signal to correspond to 12 amperes to avoid overloading the supply circuit if it is used with a car capable of drawing higher current at 120 volts. I wish I could borrow one of these new units to test.
 
GerryAZ said:
Since the new Nissan unit uses an adapter attached to the 14-50 plug, I expected that it would work like my welder and sense the presence of the adapter to switch to 120 volts. Also, the EVSE needs to change the pilot signal to correspond to 12 amperes to avoid overloading the supply circuit if it is used with a car capable of drawing higher current at 120 volts. I wish I could borrow one of these new units to test.
I doubt that the test in the EVSE is for the adapter. It is much more direct to simply measure the voltage (or the crossing of certain voltage thresholds).
 
Could the answer simply be that this EVSE is designed as a SAFETY FEATURE not to operate outside the approximate 220-240v range (and so not a "bug")? Using it as a true portable (as opposed to a permanently plugged in home EVSE), one would expect it to realistically have to contend with unknown circuits whose major components (receptacle, wiring, breaker, terminations, insulation integrity) may be sub-standard -- and yet operate as safely as is possible. So, for example, if the plug/receptacle connection is loose and causes arcing or high resistance caused high temperatures, this EVSE by design apparently automatically reduces the allowable drawn amperage or even shuts the charging sesion down. If you expect the voltage in the charging circuit to be within the range of 220-240v and unexpectedly it drops substantially below 220v, maybe because of brownout conditions or even abnormally high resistance in the circuit that could reasonably cause dangerously high wiring temperatures somewhere and not yet not high enough to be detected at the plug, there is evidence that this EVSE shuts the charging session down if the voltage drops below its range of allowable operation.

If this is the case, then this EVSE is not ignorantly or carelessly designed and maybe the OP title should be changed to something like "2018 Leaf - its portable EVSE throws a fault on low voltage including 208v", and those home owners with 208v service should be made aware that this EVSE can't be used as their home's primary non-trickle charging EVSE?
 
GerryAZ said:
RegGuheert said:
davewill said:
The way I figure it, the designer would have had to work at it to design one that was 120v compatible, but NOT 208v compatible. The DC power supply for the electronics has to work on both 120v and 240v, so probably covers the range in between. Same deal with the contactors. I suspect someone actually programmed it to reject 208v through sheer ignorance.
Agreed.

However, I will note that there IS a change in what happens at 120 VAC versus 240 VAC. Either the EVSE or the OBC or both needs to be programmed to limit the current at the lower voltages to 12A while it will have a higher limit for 240 VAC. As such, there is typically a blackout voltage somewhere between about 150 VAC and 180 VAC.

Since the new Nissan unit uses an adapter attached to the 14-50 plug, I expected that it would work like my welder and sense the presence of the adapter to switch to 120 volts. Also, the EVSE needs to change the pilot signal to correspond to 12 amperes to avoid overloading the supply circuit if it is used with a car capable of drawing higher current at 120 volts. I wish I could borrow one of these new units to test.


The adapter does not need to sense this it can be done via voltage. They also may have a hard limit below 240V at some point to insure cut off for brown outs. Some EVs will cut the charge with voltage sags and this may be a crude way to detect this without that change from 240 to 208 although that would be easy. It also may be there for other reasons. Without testing it is not easy to determine.
 
MikeD said:
... If you expect the voltage in the charging circuit to be within the range of 220-240v and unexpectedly it drops substantially below 220v, maybe because of brownout conditions or even abnormally high resistance in the circuit that could reasonably cause dangerously high wiring temperatures somewhere and not yet not high enough to be detected at the plug, there is evidence that this EVSE shuts the charging session down if the voltage drops below its range of allowable operation.

If this is the case, then this EVSE is not ignorantly or carelessly designed and maybe the OP title should be changed to something like "2018 Leaf - its portable EVSE throws a fault on low voltage including 208v", and those home owners with 208v service should be made aware that this EVSE can't be used as their home's primary non-trickle charging EVSE?

I'd say it has to be either ignorance or carelessness if the device doesn't accomodate the 208V standard. It would be much more reasonable (and accurate) to measure the no-load voltage and then evaluate voltage sag during charge, instead of a hard cutoff that puts a significant part of the grid infrastructure off-limits.
 
EVDRIVER said:
GerryAZ said:
RegGuheert said:
Agreed.

However, I will note that there IS a change in what happens at 120 VAC versus 240 VAC. Either the EVSE or the OBC or both needs to be programmed to limit the current at the lower voltages to 12A while it will have a higher limit for 240 VAC. As such, there is typically a blackout voltage somewhere between about 150 VAC and 180 VAC.

Since the new Nissan unit uses an adapter attached to the 14-50 plug, I expected that it would work like my welder and sense the presence of the adapter to switch to 120 volts. Also, the EVSE needs to change the pilot signal to correspond to 12 amperes to avoid overloading the supply circuit if it is used with a car capable of drawing higher current at 120 volts. I wish I could borrow one of these new units to test.


The adapter does not need to sense this it can be done via voltage. They also may have a hard limit below 240V at some point to insure cut off for brown outs. Some EVs will cut the charge with voltage sags and this may be a crude way to detect this without that change from 240 to 208 although that would be easy. It also may be there for other reasons. Without testing it is not easy to determine.

Yeah, they could have done it either way. Tesla uses a resister in the adapter because they need to tell the difference between different 240v adapters. I would have done the same thing here just to have a more positive indicator, and to have a more flexible design. However, assuming the device monitors voltage at all, which it almost has to in order to refuse to work on 208v, using a voltage cutoff would certainly work adequately for this design.

The point I wanted to make is that anyone who wishes to do a mod to fix this is likely to have to hack the firmware, not just the hardware.
 
Nubo: Can't either a brownout or high resistance circuit defect cause an initial "no load" charging voltage in a 240v circuit to also be abnormally low?
 
A brownout would cause no-load voltage to be low, but a high-resistance condition will not show up until a load is placed on the circuit. In any case, Nissan should have designed the portable EVSE to work with nominal 208-volt receptacles in commercial/industrial facilities. I would be rather upset it I bought a portable Level 2 EVSE and found out it would not work on 208-volt as well as 240-volt circuits.
 
GerryAZ: I see what you are saying: if the EVSE initially acts like an voltmeter, i.e. present maybe mega-ohm (or more) resistance in the circuit, then the voltage drop across the rest of the circuit would be negligible -- yes, that should work.

However, is it too much to worry about a Murphy's Law situation, say initially one has a relative brownout of 240v service to near 208v AND a high resistance circuit defect? As it is, we sometimes represent "normal" 240v service as being in the range maybe 220-240v (or maybe even a larger interval), so what is the "normal" range about 208v service? Could there be overlap, or near overlap?

As to how Nissan "should" have designed its portable EVSE, don't you agree that safety should be given higher priority over convenience? Hopefully, we agree this country's infrastructure should be enhanced to the point that one need not feel it necessary to carry around an EVSE.
 
MikeD said:
Nubo: Can't either a brownout or high resistance circuit defect cause an initial "no load" charging voltage in a 240v circuit to also be abnormally low?

In a high resistance situation Voltage sag would be even more revealing, I'd think. You probably wouldn't notice a "brownout" from 240 to 208 and only a small increase in current. But this is admittedly a layman's understanding. :oops:
 
Did anyone get an answer from Nissan on this?
I spoke to the dealer, and they referred to me to the Aerovironment support people (I am not sure why, probably they are the original manufacturers). When I talked to Aerovironment support, they told me that it needs to be 240 V input, and the "cord" will never work with less voltage. According to them the only solution is to install a true 240V outlet, which in our tri-phase complex I am not sure it is even possible.

It is a pretty bad design, but I would have expected to have a better answer from them than: the problem is in your home, so we will do nothing to help. I guess they should have at least made you aware of the problem before they sold you the cord.
 
aldanra said:
It is a pretty bad design, but I would have expected to have a better answer from them than: the problem is in your home, so we will do nothing to help. I guess they should have at least made you aware of the problem before they sold you the cord.
Obviously, you have no appreciation for how difficult it is to do what you're asking. Bad enough that the EVSE must somehow come up with dozens of milliwatts of 12VDC power (we could be talking about five or ten milliamperes here, I hope you realize) to manufacture the 1kHz pilot tone and maybe operate a relay. But then you apparently expect to be able to develop such a supply that will work from an AC input of anywhere between 100 and 240V??? What do you think; that you can just order one from Digikey or something???
 
AV knows nothing about the Nissan unit so calling them is pointless. The unit is made by Panasonic and it is just a new version of the old units. There is no reason it should not work on 208 unless there is a bad ground or an intentional restriction. The EVSE Upgrade units work on a wide voltage range of 100-250V, If the 2018 can't work on a proper 208 outlet then there is some restriction imposed or improper ground.
 
Code allows 208v in a NEMA 14-50 so AV is full of it, Panasonic did no homework in the design phase, and Nissan has their head in the sand.
208 is unbelievably common in the US market.
 
@Levenkay Yet, EVSE manufacturers other than Nissan have the ability to handle a range of supply voltage, usually from 100V to 250V.

My Zencar 32A portable EVSE handles 100V - 250V supply, as does the JuiceBox Pro 40. Most ClipperCreek EVSEs will take either 208V or 240V supply - just to name a few...

So, it can't be that hard for Nissan to do likewise.
 
Back
Top