This is normal?

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SageBrush said:
GaryHere said:
Im am really curious to try the DCQC if I could find one close just to experience that speed of charging.
If you don't like the temperature jump from L2 charging, DCFC is going to be quite a bit less appealing.
If you are willing to make do with a number, then about 3 kWh every 4-5 minutes.

I gather you have been charging at Blink stations. Do they report kWh delivered from the meter ? If yes, please repeat the test during a recharge. It will give us some data regarding the accuracy of the miles/kWh meter.

By the way, I may not have answered your earlier question in a helpful way. '12 bars' of battery capacity correspond to 85 - 100% new battery capacity, and 100% is ~ 22 kWh. Since your car reports 12 bars, you expect the test to return a result between 18.7 - 22 kWh. That is probably good enough data for you, but once you are confident that the car battery metrics have not been meddled with you can always get from LeafSpy [the best data we know of].

Ahh ok now I understand the numbers. I think. Lol.

The battery is 24kWh but only 18.7-22 is available when the battery is in good shape?

I remember reading 21 somewhere.

Yes I'd imagine QC is gonna heat up that battery more than L2. Seems I'm staying at 7 bars even without charging. It's at that now after I went to the store.

I drove like an 85 yo grandma there, lol, in B mode/eco, it's only 4 miles r/t and with regen, I left at 59% SOC and came home that way. I like that.

Yes been charging at Blink, I think they show you that kWh delivered. I've been calling them and complaining why it doesn't show on their app after charging is completed but in AZ it's a pay by the time state where as in CA etc, they have a set rate based on kW used.

I'll look next time on their screen, that it if I can see it. They are soooo washed out and I'm on my third Blink card now cause none work but the app works to start the charge.

Thanx again, as always, for your speedy, informative replies :D
 
GaryHere said:
The battery is 24kWh but only 18.7-22 is available when the battery is in good shape?
18.7 - 22.0 kWh capacity in a LEAF with a '24 kwh' battery that displays 12 capacity bars and is not tampered with. The range reflects the fact that the 12th bar drops out when capacity drops below 85% of new. Until that 12th bar drops, you do not know if your car battery sits at 85%, 86%, 87% .... up to 100% of a new battery capacity.

LeafSpy tells you battery capacity to within 0.1 kWh ... IF the battery has not been reset. If there has been a reset, LeafSpy is also fooled and gives out garbage numbers.
 
SageBrush said:
GaryHere said:
The battery is 24kWh but only 18.7-22 is available when the battery is in good shape?
18.7 - 22.0 kWh capacity in a LEAF with a '24 kwh' battery that displays 12 capacity bars and is not tampered with. The range reflects the fact that the 12th bar drops out when capacity drops below 85% of new. Until that 12th bar drops, you do not know if your car battery sits at 85%, 86%, 87% .... up to 100% of a new battery capacity.

LeafSpy tells you battery capacity to within 0.1 kWh ... IF the battery has not been reset. If there has been a reset, LeafSpy is also fooled and gives out garbage numbers.

Ahh yea I forget about that the 1st bar is 15% loss, so thats kinda a big one to lose (at first)

I was looking at Leaf cars for sale and its ironic that the used car dealers that take and publish on their ads, close up shots showing the capacity bars, and if they are missing some and not 12 bars, they have zero clue that they are giving customers info that likely they dont want them to know. (Normally)

Or put this way, when was the last time those car dealers showed derogatory things about the cars they want to sell?

I find it all amusing. Even Carmax, Carvana have cars for sale lacking bars but none of the prices are adjusted as such.

They are clueless to these bars on the Leaf but a customer like me, who knows this, knows to avoid these cars with less bars.

But of course we know theres also resets and thats where your test works well! :)
 
GaryHere said:
I find it all amusing. Even Carmax, Carvana have cars for sale lacking bars but none of the prices are adjusted as such.
I noticed the same, and mentioned it in another thread: LEAF prices are mostly set by odometer and model year.
The smart consumer buys a late 2013 or 2014 LEAF with relatively high mileage and (real) 12 bar battery capacity. So long as ~ 19 kWh is enough range and it is pampered some, the car will probably* be a great value.

* In cool and moderate climates. Hot climates are not a good bet. Sorry, Gary
 
SageBrush said:
GaryHere said:
I find it all amusing. Even Carmax, Carvana have cars for sale lacking bars but none of the prices are adjusted as such.
I noticed the same, and mentioned it in another thread: LEAF prices are mostly set by odometer and model year.
The smart consumer buys a late 2013 or 2014 LEAF with relatively high mileage and (real) 12 bar battery capacity. So long as ~ 19 kWh is enough range and it is pampered some, the car will probably* be a great value.

In cool and moderate climates. Hot climates are not a good bet. Sorry, Gary

Words of truth and wisdom.

At worst case the car loses a bar or two and I trade it in.

For once trading it in may work to a consumers advantage: those dealers have no clue nor care about battery capacity, just as you say, the year and mileage.

I saw a 2011 today on CList with only 5 bars, never saw one that low and was priced to sell by it's mileage (50k) and age.

I really hope gullible people aren't buying these cars based on how lovely and detailed and loaded some are!

I think the Leaf is the only car that shows battery capacity right there permanently on the dash.

I could be wrong but I'll rephrase that...I've never seen battery capacity displayed on any car I've owned be it a Volt, Prius, C Max, Prius C, Fait 500e and my Honda Civic Hybrid.
 
SageBrush said:
LeafSpy tells you battery capacity to within 0.1 kWh ... IF the battery has not been reset. If there has been a reset, LeafSpy is also fooled and gives out garbage numbers.

BMS's capacity guess isn't accurate to 2kWh, so displaying to 0.1 kWh is confusing.
 
WetEV said:
SageBrush said:
LeafSpy tells you battery capacity to within 0.1 kWh ... IF the battery has not been reset. If there has been a reset, LeafSpy is also fooled and gives out garbage numbers.

BMS's capacity guess isn't accurate to 2kWh, so displaying to 0.1 kWh is confusing.
Trend the data; you will approach scenario 'C'

M1U1-SF%201-5_Accuracy%20and%20Precision.png
 
SageBrush said:
WetEV said:
SageBrush said:
LeafSpy tells you battery capacity to within 0.1 kWh ... IF the battery has not been reset. If there has been a reset, LeafSpy is also fooled and gives out garbage numbers.

BMS's capacity guess isn't accurate to 2kWh, so displaying to 0.1 kWh is confusing.
Trend the data; you will approach scenario 'C'

Assuming that you don't do things that throw the numbers off in a consistent pattern, of course.

L1 charging and one driving pattern seem to reduce reported numbers. If you do this all the time, your numbers are likely to be at least several percent low. Trending doesn't help.

DCQC and a different driving pattern seem to increase reported numbers. If you do this all the time, your numbers are can be more than ten percent high. Trending again doesn't help.

Only if you vary from a reduced estimate to an increased estimate would you improve accuracy with a trend. And there are still inaccuracies larger than 0.1kWh.
 
SageBrush said:
Parenthetically, this test can be run 'in reverse' for the same results, charging instead of discharging the battery:

Go to an EVSE like Chargepoint (CP) that reports the kWh during the charging sesssion
Note starting SoC
Charge up an hour or two
Multiply kWh reported from CP by 0.875 to account for charging losses
Note end SoC

Then same arithmetic of discounted_kWh / SoC_delta.


Two questions:
1. Can you not rely on the the remaining kWh displayed on LeafSpy?
2. If everyone on this forum says not to trust the GOM, then why would I trust the % charge remaining or the miles/kWh displayed on the instrument panel?

Is not using LeafSpy for the calculations just because ' garyhere' doesn't have access to LeafSpy?
 
briscobully said:
Two questions:
1. Can you not rely on the the remaining kWh displayed on LeafSpy?
2. If everyone on this forum says not to trust the GOM, then why would I trust the % charge remaining or the miles/kWh displayed on the instrument panel?
1. Yes, you can rely upon it.
2. The GOM displays an interpreted number based upon past driving efficiency, the state of the battery, the phase of the moon, the number of nearby unicorns, and other unknown factors. It is not a raw statistic and has been shown to display a grossly unrealistic number.

In contrast, the dash display of mi/kWh and %SOC are raw statistics. That's why you can trust them.
 
briscobully said:
1. Can you not rely on the the remaining kWh displayed on LeafSpy?

Depends on exactly what you mean by "rely" or "trust". No measurement is completely accurate, there is always a margin of error. It is prudent to understand the error budget if you are going to be cutting it close.

The GOM is the worse, for sure. Not only the car's estimate of battery capacity, but also the slightly nutty way the car takes recent efficiency and turns this into a range estimate. I've seen single digit GOM readings at the top of a climb, then driven 35 miles and still had 20 miles left.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Dungeness,+WA+98382/Hurricane+Ridge+Visitor+Center,+Hurricane+Ridge+Road,+Port+Angeles,+WA/Dungeness,+WA/@48.0579379,-123.3809375,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m20!4m19!1m5!1m1!1s0x548fbe7b3f88f273:0x2e1e95e2b316ff39!2m2!1d-123.1232335!2d48.1467596!1m5!1m1!1s0x548e4aec9a9ce0a7:0x406b3943986bc515!2m2!1d-123.4983979!2d47.9691373!1m5!1m1!1s0x548fbe7b3f88f273:0x2e1e95e2b316ff39!2m2!1d-123.1232335!2d48.1467596!3e0?hl=en


A full L2 charge from LBW with the battery at 20C and measuring the total kWhs used is probably the closest to a gold standard battery capacity test that we could do without expensive equipment.

% charge remaining is reasonably accurate, unless you are doing a lot of high power acceleration/regeneration.

The car's km/kWh or miles per kWh is somewhat less accurate, but better than the GOM.

A test such SageBrush suggested is probably more accurate than LeafSpy. I've seen LeafSpy's kWh more than 10% high, and 2% low, based on a capacity determined by a recharge test. Still rather better than the GOM.
 
WetEV said:
briscobully said:
1. Can you not rely on the the remaining kWh displayed on LeafSpy?

Depends on exactly what you mean by "rely" or "trust". No measurement is completely accurate, there is always a margin of error. It is prudent to understand the error budget if you are going to be cutting it close.

The GOM is the worse, for sure. Not only the car's estimate of battery capacity, but also the slightly nutty way the car takes recent efficiency and turns this into a range estimate. I've seen single digit GOM readings at the top of a climb, then driven 35 miles and still had 20 miles left.

https://www.google.com/maps/dir/Dungeness,+WA+98382/Hurricane+Ridge+Visitor+Center,+Hurricane+Ridge+Road,+Port+Angeles,+WA/Dungeness,+WA/@48.0579379,-123.3809375,12z/data=!3m1!4b1!4m20!4m19!1m5!1m1!1s0x548fbe7b3f88f273:0x2e1e95e2b316ff39!2m2!1d-123.1232335!2d48.1467596!1m5!1m1!1s0x548e4aec9a9ce0a7:0x406b3943986bc515!2m2!1d-123.4983979!2d47.9691373!1m5!1m1!1s0x548fbe7b3f88f273:0x2e1e95e2b316ff39!2m2!1d-123.1232335!2d48.1467596!3e0?hl=en


A full L2 charge from LBW with the battery at 20C and measuring the total kWhs used is probably the closest to a gold standard battery capacity test that we could do without expensive equipment.

% charge remaining is reasonably accurate, unless you are doing a lot of high power acceleration/regeneration.

The car's km/kWh or miles per kWh is somewhat less accurate, but better than the GOM.

A test such SageBrush suggested is probably more accurate than LeafSpy. I've seen LeafSpy's kWh more than 10% high, and 2% low, based on a capacity determined by a recharge test. Still rather better than the GOM.


Thanks WetEV,
My question, I guess, is should I use the LeafSpy readings as my beginning and ending SOC or the instrument panel? Or, as long as I'm consistent, using only one or the other should give me the same baseline of information? I think I'm asking that correctly... As of right now, my battery number remaining, as show on the Leaf instrument panel, and the SOC that LeafSpy shows are different my about 6%... Is that normal?

And, if I do use leafspy to determine my kWh's used, I would assume I'd need no 'fudge' percentage as SageBrush suggests if I get the reading from ChargePoint.

Thanks all
 
My stats from my latest charge (using LeafSpy Pro stats)

Before charging:
6.6kWh (remaining on battery)
SOC = 39.4%

After Charging:
17kWh
SOC = 82.4%

By these numbers I get this as my battery kWh;
6.6 - 17.0 = 10.4kWh
Change in SOC - 82.4% - 39.4% = 43%

10.4/.43 = 24.186kWh = is that even possible on a 24kWh 2015 Leaf S? Or are my calculations incorrect? Or is LeafSpy not reading correctly? Hence my first question on Page 5 above

And BTW, I only charged it because I wanted to see if the Charging station down the street was active or not...
 
17 kWh @ 82.4% SOC would extrapolate to (17 kWh * 100%) / 82.4% = 20.6 kWh @ 100% SOC, but your method should have worked too. Seems that the SOC reported to LeafSpy is a little flawed.
 
briscobully said:
10.4/.43 = 24.186kWh = is that even possible on a 24kWh 2015 Leaf S? Or are my calculations incorrect? Or is LeafSpy not reading correctly?
That assumes that a 100% SOC is a full charge. For instance, when my 2013 finishes charging, LSP reads the SOC as 96.7%.

IMHO, the easiest way to know the current battery capacity is to just fully charge the car and use LSP to read it.
 
jlv said:
briscobully said:
10.4/.43 = 24.186kWh = is that even possible on a 24kWh 2015 Leaf S? Or are my calculations incorrect? Or is LeafSpy not reading correctly?
That assumes that a 100% SOC is a full charge. For instance, when my 2013 finishes charging, LSP reads the SOC as 96.7%.

IMHO, the easiest way to know the current battery capacity is to just fully charge the car and use LSP to read it.

Unless, the LeafSpy figured is flawed as alozzy pointed out.

Right now my Leaf console reads a 27% SOC but LeafSpy reads 34.9%? The Gids% reads 25.3%. Oh, did just drive and knocked another kWh off the calculation I posted above (if anyone is keeping track of my numbers besides me)!

Again, which stat do you trust?
 
I trust and use Leaf Spy kWh exclusively. So far so good.

The GOM is a nice reference to compare, but I've figured out most of my routes and most of the kWh needed and utilizing LeafSpy has not left me stranded due to inaccurate numbers.

In fact, LeafSpy has "extended" my range (which is down to 70 miles from 80ish when new) just due to the fact I know when I'm in that 1 to 2 kWh range, I better slow down or ensure the next charging spot is 6 miles away or less. I use LeafSpy numbers to turn off the heater when needing a bit more of a buffer to avoid being stranded.

All in all, the kWh is what I have adjusted to to tell me how much is left "in the tank". And my miles per kWh is a pretty consistent 4. sometimes less in the rain and cold, more in the glorious summer that is here early this year. I do some math in my head and have been successful for 46,000 gas-free miles.

YMMV

PS My advantage is our relatively moderate temps here in the Willamette valley as well as the obvious flatness that comes along with a valley, haha. Not to say there aren't hills and passes, but 900 feet climb over the Coastal Range is VERY different than my one-time trip over the 10,000' Cascades!
 
Dash SOC ranges from 0% to 100% while actual SOC is probably 3% to 97% +/- a bit. Leaf Spy is using numbers that are more like the 3% to 97% range. I have been tracking battery capacity by discharging until main contactor opens (shutdown) using climate control in the driveway and then charging fully. I measure the charging energy using a revenue-accuracy watt-hour meter on the input side of my EVSE. I started my monthly discharge/recharge tests when the battery was replaced in the 2011. My experience has been that dashboard mi/kWh was around 25% optimistic on the 2011 and closer but still optimistic on the 2015 when compared to true wall-to-wheels efficiency calculations. Actual efficiency of the 2011 was about 3.0 mi/kWh while the dash consistently indicated at least 4.0 mi/kWh for my usage pattern. The "GID", AHr, and SOH numbers from Leaf Spy seem to track fairly well with the measured recharge energy on both 2011 and 2015 so Leaf Spy data is the best information available without using external measurements.
 
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