Nissan issues software update to solve 30 kwh battery issues

jake14mw said:

OrientExpress said:

Well this issue is certainly more subtle than the braking issue. But I would disagree with your ranking. The Tesla braking performance was a life-threatening one, this issue was just false range degradation.

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We'll have to disagree then. The Tesla issue was, on a SECOND panic stop (60-0) within a short amount of time, the length of the stop was 20 feet longer than normal. This almost never happens. Yet they had a fix within a week. With the Nissan Leaf issue, most drivers were seeing unacceptable drops in driving range. People were seeing an average 15% drop in range in their second year with the car. I think this would have an impact on potential buyers. It has had that impact on me. I love my 2014 Leaf, but I will not buy another until I see evidence that they have fixed the degredation problem.

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Well, guess we are all here to disagree then. Braking is a VERY well known process and nowhere near as complicated as range degradation which is IMPOSSIBLE to test the rate of simply because of all the outside factors involved. Braking??? not so much.

So your contention that Tesla is a better company for its quick reaction to a potentially fatal flaw in its design of "basic" automobile safety if true, would have simply been a "no look, over the shoulder" luck shot.

As far as your contention that all 30 kwh LEAFs suffered massive degradation; That comment is far from true.

Dave and Nissan think alike.
While it is true that LEAF batteries have been crud since year #1, you never know. They might have a Cinderella moment and stop rapidly degrading any day now so stay the course !

garsh said:

I can easily believe that there was a reporting issue. After Nissan's debacle with the original batteries, the sane thing for them to do would be to make sure that the battery in the next version of the car didn't have such big degredation problems.

Or at the very least, make sure it wasn't any worse.

So I'm glad that at least part of the problem was just software reporting bad values. I'm interested to see the actual degredation of these new batteries.

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Garsh:

I wonder if you or other readers would summarize what we believe we know about the apparent battery degradation issue by confirming my understanding of the following questions:

(1) Since LeafSpy Pro reads the same data from the Battery Management Controller (BMC) as does the display on the 2016 Leaf dashboard, it (meaning LeafSpy Pro) is also showing faster-than-real degradation of the battery. Yes?

(2) If there are, in fact, bar losses on the dashboard display that are occurring much faster than what would be expected, they represent some sort of software problem mis-interpreting the actual state of health of the battery. Yes?

For what it is worth, my plot of battery SOH over time looks very much like the blue line in the graph (above) you have posted. I am now two years exactly of ownership and only 7,800 miles of driving with very few fast charges, keeping the car garaged when not in use and virtually NEVER having the car sitting outside in the hot sun save for parking in the grocery store lot less than once per week, always driving in ECO mode and never seeing more than 5 bars of battery temperature (and 5 bars is very VERY rare given the moderate climate where I live).

The reason I ask is simply this: some owners of Nissan 2016 Leafs with the 30 kWh battery have had bar loss very early into use of the car -- e.g. I lost my first bar at 6,250 miles after about 17 months of ownership -- but other owners of the same model have had NO bar losses (and also minimal LeafSpy Pro indications of degradation) as I see from multiple posts on this forum. If there is a software problem (as opposed to a battery hardware problem) why wouldn't just about everyone have rapid degradation as a result of faulty software? Put another way, it doesn't seem correct that there are different versions of BMC software across 2016 Leafs with the 30 kwh battery manufactured in the late 2015-early 2016 timeframe, does it?

Or maybe I am missing something entirely. In any case, I think all of us would like to be as certain as we can be that Nissan is being honest with the request that owners bring in their Leafs for a software upgrade that corrects a true error rather than somehow jiggering or tampering with the data to owners false reassurance.

My thanks.

The reason I ask is simply this: some owners of Nissan 2016 Leafs with the 30 kWh battery have had bar loss very early into use of the car -- e.g. I lost my first bar at 6,250 miles after about 17 months of ownership -- but other owners of the same model have had NO bar losses (and also minimal LeafSpy Pro indications of degradation) as I see from multiple posts on this forum. If there is a software problem (as opposed to a battery hardware problem) why wouldn't just about everyone have rapid degradation as a result of faulty software? Put another way, it doesn't seem correct that there are different versions of BMC software across 2016 Leafs with the 30 kwh battery manufactured in the late 2015-early 2016 timeframe, does it?

Or maybe I am missing something entirely. In any case, I think all of us would like to be as certain as we can be that Nissan is being honest with the request that owners bring in their Leafs for a software upgrade that corrects a true error rather than somehow jiggering or tampering with the data to owners false reassurance.

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The challenge for the owner that is trying to interpret their battery health data, is that there is no one use model that is applicable to all vehicles. The BMC uses input from many variables to calculate its source data that is used by the rest of the LEAFs systems. Since the method that Nissan uses is part of their private IP and is not published, the lay community can only speculate what is actually being measured and calculated to come up with the source baseline data.

In today's litigious world, it is highly unlikely a conservative company such as Nissan would choose to pander to its customer base as some seem to speculate.

The bottom line is that Nissan understands more about the technology in their BEV than any of us would ever be able to, and they found a flaw in their system and have moved to correct it. While that may not satisfy the voyeuristic impulses of those that are crying foul because they don't understand what is going on, unfortunately that's the way it is. My only remedy to offer you is to get the update and move on.

Let me get this straight. There is one person posting here who understands exactly what has happened with the 30kWh Leaf battery. I would like to know how he obtained this information.

My concern is that the software update just changes the point where the dash shows battery degradation. Maybe delaying the lose of the firsts bar until the capacity o the battery has dropped to 75%, and adjusting the others in a similar manner. I do hope that this is not the case, and that there really is a software problem that when corrected will allow the battery and car to work as good as new.

I hope that someone does a through test to determine what really is true.

bmw said:

Let me get this straight. There is one person posting here who understands exactly what has happened with the 30kWh Leaf battery. I would like to know how he obtained this information.

My concern is that the software update just changes the point where the dash shows battery degradation. Maybe delaying the lose of the firsts bar until the capacity o the battery has dropped to 75%, and adjusting the others in a similar manner. I do hope that this is not the case, and that there really is a software problem that when corrected will allow the battery and car to work as good as new.

I hope that someone does a through test to determine what really is true.

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First off there is NO ONE who understands exactly what happened...Not by a long shot. We only know what Nissan has passed on to us and that is the LBC is giving false status reports to the BMS.

This concern over changing the parameters of the capacity bars is quite simply... ridiculous.

OrientExpress said:

The challenge for the owner that is trying to interpret their battery health data, is that there is no one use model that is applicable to all vehicles. The BMC uses input from many variables to calculate its source data that is used by the rest of the LEAFs systems.

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What a crock of ****.

Check LeafSpy cell voltages at LBW or VLBW before and after the update.

SageBrush said:

OrientExpress said:

The challenge for the owner that is trying to interpret their battery health data, is that there is no one use model that is applicable to all vehicles. The BMC uses input from many variables to calculate its source data that is used by the rest of the LEAFs systems.

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What a crock of ****.

Check LeafSpy cell voltages at LBW or VLBW before and after the update.

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Exactly, cell voltages are what matter. Your LBW or VLBW are determined by the lowest cell voltage, and your lowest cell voltage also determines the cutoff. Ah capacity is an estimated value based upon the upper and lower voltages seen combined with amperage going in/out of the battery.

While it's quite possible that INITIAL range estimates from these Leaf owners would be incorrect, the total range experienced by a Leaf owner when driving the vehicle down to 5% would not be impacted. Thus, while the guess-o-meter might be wrong on range, the total range driven when driven down to 5% would tell the real truth. Now what we need is for someone to look at the voltages before/after the update, and also check the full charge to 5% charge range.

Durandal said:

SageBrush said:

OrientExpress said:

The challenge for the owner that is trying to interpret their battery health data, is that there is no one use model that is applicable to all vehicles. The BMC uses input from many variables to calculate its source data that is used by the rest of the LEAFs systems.

Click to expand...

What a crock of ****.

Check LeafSpy cell voltages at LBW or VLBW before and after the update.

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Exactly, cell voltages are what matter. Your LBW or VLBW are determined by the lowest cell voltage, and your lowest cell voltage also determines the cutoff. Ah capacity is an estimated value based upon the upper and lower voltages seen combined with amperage going in/out of the battery.

While it's quite possible that INITIAL range estimates from these Leaf owners would be incorrect, the total range experienced by a Leaf owner when driving the vehicle down to 5% would not be impacted. Thus, while the guess-o-meter might be wrong on range, the total range driven when driven down to 5% would tell the real truth. Now what we need is for someone to look at the voltages before/after the update, and also check the full charge to 5% charge range.

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I think you mean the reverse: kWh from meter from VLBW to full charge. But yes, exactly as you say.

I got the email from Nissan about this yesterday, as I have a 2017 LEAF with the 30 kw battery. This is the exact issue that I was seeing, and is not what I believe you are discussing. What happens on my car is that I average 1.1 to 1.2 miles per battery percent when my car is in the 100% - 70% range, then between the 70% and 30% range it drops dramatically to only 0.4 miles per battery percent. This then affects the range that is shown to be left on my car. What this is saying is that the math is incorrect in the car. And, from my experiments and calculations this is what happens. If I am at 20% left on my battery, I should take about 22 kw to charge up, however I only take around 16 to 16.5 kw. This is because I'm not really at only 20% battery left, and the car should read around 40% - 45%. Basically, my car is calculating things out like a 24 kw battery, and not the 30 kw that it is. Thus my missing 25 miles or 5-6 kw. I've been complaining about this for months and more than one dealership kept saying that everything was fine. I kept explaining that math doesn't lie, but they didn't want to believe me.

The interesting thing is that when I called the dealerships that I've been dealing with they seem oblivious to the recall / update. They tell me that my VIN doesn't show anything that it needs to be in for. However, according the the email the software update is coming, hopefully they know more on Monday. For those that are interested. Here is the text of the email.

Nissan is committed to providing the highest levels of product safety, quality and customer satisfaction. With that in mind, we want to bring to your attention important information regarding a voluntary service campaign being conducted by Nissan to reprogram the 30 kWh Lithium-ion Battery Controller (LBC) on your Nissan LEAF vehicle.

REASON FOR SERVICE CAMPAIGN

The software used by the LBC miscalculates the driving range and the battery’s capacity level gauge, resulting in capacity and range being displayed lower than the actual amount. Nissan is releasing new software to customers to correct these parameters and provide an accurate representation of range and capacity.

WHAT NISSAN WILL DO

To ensure your continued satisfaction and confidence in your car, your Nissan dealer will reprogram the 30 kWh LBC with updated software to correct the calculation for the driving range and Lithium-ion battery capacity gauge indicators. This procedure will be performed at no cost to you for parts and labor. Additionally, this service should take less than one (1) hour to complete, but your Nissan dealer may require your vehicle for a longer period of time based upon their work schedule.

WHAT YOU SHOULD DO

Nissan encourages you to contact your LEAF certified Nissan dealer at your earliest convenience in order to arrange your appointment. To minimize any inconvenience to you, it is important that you have an appointment before bringing your vehicle to the dealer for service. Please bring this notice with you to your service appointment. Detailed instructions have been sent to your Nissan dealer.

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JMZingale12 said:

I got the email from Nissan about this yesterday, as I have a 2017 LEAF with the 30 kwh battery. This is the exact issue that I was seeing, and is not what I believe you are discussing. What happens on my car is that I average 1.1 to 1.2 miles per kw when my car is in the 100% - 70% range, then between the 70% and 30% range it drops dramatically to only 0.4 miles per kw.

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watt is a unit of power -- a rate
Wh is a unit of energy -- an amount

Consumption is reported as distance/amount: miles/kWh

Would you mind reposting your comment with corrected numbers that are in the realm of possible and with a basic understanding of the units of measurement in use ?

^^^ as well as location :?:

DaveinOlyWA said:

Well, guess we are all here to disagree then. Braking is a VERY well known process and nowhere near as complicated as range degradation which is IMPOSSIBLE to test the rate of simply because of all the outside factors involved. Braking??? not so much.

So your contention that Tesla is a better company for its quick reaction to a potentially fatal flaw in its design of "basic" automobile safety if true, would have simply been a "no look, over the shoulder" luck shot.

As far as your contention that all 30 kwh LEAFs suffered massive degradation; That comment is far from true.

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I never said Tesla was a better company. It's certainly easy to do good by the customer when you don't have to make money. Tesla is definitely better than any other car company at providing software updates.

And did I say ALL 30 kwh Leafs suffered massive degredation? I'm going by the graphs. Put the 30 kwh graphs aside for a minute. I don't think the 24 kwh graphs are acceptable! The only other two car companies that I know of that have had big market share plug in batteries for a long time like Nissan are GM and Tesla. I have not heard many reports at all about significant battery degradation from GM or Tesla. What other carmaker has battery degredation like Nissan?

jake14mw said:

What other carmaker has battery degredation like Nissan?

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Toyota’s PIPs sometimes have larger than expected degradation, but having a gas engine and strange protocol for when the engine launches helps cover it up

FYI, here's my change after the software update. I haven't had a chance to do much driving yet, though.

2016 SL, leased in Sep 2016 in S. California (hot summers where I am)
24k miles, almost all L1/L2 charging.
Before update: 9 bars and 69% SOH according to Leafspy
After update: 12 bars and 85% SOH

My GOM range estimates have increased accordingly. I haven't driven enough to tell whether there's a real world difference in range or if I'm actually putting more energy into the battery from near empty to full. I don't know how things will change in the near future, but I'll update if things do.

I was sure I was headed for a replacement before 2 years (which would be crazy), but now it looks like I'll have this battery a while longer.

That’s great news and closely follows the reports from others that have posted after having the update done to their cars. In fact, I have yet to see one negative report in any social media platform.

This update is a terrible turn of events for the armchair experts that have chosen to trash Nissan and their approach to battery technology. Now granted, six years ago the first generation LEAF batteries did have issues, but after 2013 and several improved battery chemistry iterations, the LEAF has shown itself to be a durable vehicle despite the critics continual whining to the contrary.

I’ve lived with three generations of LEAFs over the last seven years, and have found them all to be a reliable, trouble free vehicle, and I expect them to only get better.

Pretty sure the cheerleaders are from cooler climates. We've had two in the family in Florida and I can tell you from our perspective they suck. Only Nissan's willingness to prop the up with warranty replacements or dumping them at the end of three year leases makes them remotely workable here.
Two Volts on the other hand were good as new the day we turned them in.

LTLFTcomposite said:

Pretty sure the cheerleaders are from cooler climates. We've had two in the family in Florida and I can tell you from our perspective they suck. Only Nissan's willingness to prop the up with warranty replacements or dumping them at the end of three year leases makes them remotely workable here.
Two Volts on the other hand were good as new the day we turned them in.

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And another satisfied LEAF driver who had the sense to lease an evolving technology rather than purchase (twice) and chose a brand that stood behind its a product with a warranty that set the industry standard for the product category.

Hi, There seems to be a lot on Nissan Haters on this board. Surprising because this is a Nissan Leaf Board.
With that said. I have 2017 SL with 8200K. No issues. I was surprised how fast it is and happy with the quality so far. Very Pleased so far after with a $7500 Tax Credit. $1900 Off sticker price New York State Incentive and another $10000 Off MSRP in the great state of New York last August.
I've been following the 30 KW Battery degradation issue since day 1. All the Graphs and Histeria.
I'm happy Nissan has realized there is a software issue. ( if this was Tesla some of you would be Swooning how great it was that they discovered a problem and fixed it. Also, the Telsa 3's are still coming in at twice the price. Those 35K are still not happening.)

Nissan would not offer a fix if it wasn't legit. Come On people. You think Nissan would open themselves up to a class-action lawsuit by rebooting software after their batteries weren't lasting long. Really?
I m100% confident this will show the batteries are good. Remember Only a handful have failed over the warranty time period. Do the research as I have.
After I get the Reboot I will wait the 7 years and another 91000 to see how the battery hangs in there.
All The best,
CS

Nissan would not offer a fix if it wasn't legit. Come On people. You think Nissan would open themselves up to a class-action lawsuit by rebooting software after their batteries weren't lasting long. Really?

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If past behavior is any indication, then...yes, yes they would.